Bass Trombone Sound?

[trombinstharry]

Hello all, I believe I have made a thread about this before but I didn't really know how to word what I was asking. Let's say there is a jazz bass bonist and a classical bassist, but about to perform a bass trombone feature piece in wherever they perform. What does the jazz basser look for in his sound, and what does the classical bass trombonist look for? Not so much technique, but just tone in general. And, who are some good jazz bass trombonists to listen to? And classical? Thank you

[BGuttman]

Bass Trombone should have a deeper, fuller sound than a tenor trombone. Both in jazz and in classical.

The "classic" bass trombone sound in a Jazz Band is often the one by George Roberts. You may also want to listen to our friend Savio (Leif) who has a wonderful bass trombone sound.

Classical bass trombonists you can easily find to listen to: Doug Yeo, Gerry Pagano.

And Alan Raph, who is just a superb bass trombonist in any genre.

Of course there are many more and I hope you will hear some more suggestions.

[Carolus]

Also check out Massimo Pirone. Amazing player, both on bass and tenor. Very active on FB and some of his stuff is also available on Spotify.

[bigbandbone]

I just had this discussion/disagreement with fellow bass bone player. He thinks a bass bone should only be played with one big symphonies sound no matter what the setting.

Here's my humble opinion, take it for what it's worth. when I'm playing with a symphony band, concert band, of smaller brass group I strive for a bigger/rounder "pillowy" sound. No sharp edges. When I'm playing bass in a big band I go for a centered more focused and penetrating sound. First because I need to blend with the rest of the section. Second, because there are so many juicy little bits in the bass book that really need to be heard with some presence.
The only time I vary from the focused bigband sound is when playing a featured solo. Then I play with a sound somewhere in between the two ala George Roberts.
Like I said, just my humble opinion.

[castrubone]

Jazz sound: Bill Reichenbach

Classical sound: Pete Norton

Thus endeth the lesson.

[hyperbolica]

jazz: Max Seigel, George Roberts, Dave Taylor, Bill Reichenbach, Jeff Cortazzo

classical: Ben vanDijk, Brian Hecht, Gerry Pagano, Charlie Vernon

[Bonearzt]

Just play!

Your sound is your sound!!!

Yes you should listen the EVERYONE to get a general "sound" idea, but you will never sound like Messers Roberts or Kleinhammer!!

[Savio]

Thanks Bruce for the nice words, but I believe its wise to listen somebody else. I agree with Boneartz.

I'm not sure but I dont think there is that much difference between jazz and classical sound? I listen to everyone and cant say there is one classical sound and one jazz sound. Its only the style thats different. Tenor trombone might be another story but bass is bass.

Nearly all pro players have a nice sound. I get inspired from many but mostly Mr. Roberts. Remember; Everyone have their own sound, listen all and get some ideas. Lately I listen a lot to Toby Oft and his bordogni etudes. And I try to get my bass to sing in the same way. Its not easy but listening him inspire me to keep on trying.
I think there is one thing thats very important. Try to make the sound clear and focused.

Leif

[Pre59]

I just had this discussion/disagreement with fellow bass bone player. He thinks a bass bone should only be played with one big symphonies sound no matter what the setting.

There's a smaller tonal gap between a .562 bass and a .547 tenor, but bigger with .500 tenor. So it stands to reason that the bass tbn in a jazz setting should have more in common with the more focused sound of the tenors.

[Bonearzt]

The only real difference I go for to contrast between big band and classical is I'm more aggressive in a big band setting with my attacks but back off after, whereas in an orchestra I tend to be a bit more reserved with my attacks, but sustain the sound slightly longer.
Hard to explain in writing...


Eric

[LIBrassCo]

The only real difference I go for to contrast between big band and classical is I'm more aggressive in a big band setting with my attacks but back off after, whereas in an orchestra I tend to be a bit more reserved with my attacks, but sustain the sound slightly longer.
Hard to explain in writing...


Eric

Thats kind of bang on. In a big band I tend to force the rest of the group to play up to me, rather than be drowned out. No ones ever asked me for less, so i guess its an ok way to go. As a punishment, whoever is in charge of what charts were playing tends to try to wear me out with back to back to back crazy bass bone parts. Not that im complaining

[Doug Elliott]

I am no expert on bass trombone playing, but in my experience the major difference between big band and orchestral bass trombone is about style and articulation, not actual "sound," and the same goes for equipment. There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.

[Gary]

Maybe I'm reading the OP wrong, but are you asking about both people playing together in a JAZZ context?

[hyperbolica]

Yeah, for a jazz context I'd choose lighter equipment with more Bark, brighter articulation. For orchestra a little more weighty. For chamber groups more nimble with some personality.

[Savio]

There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.

Doug, I dont exactly agree. And Im sure you have a lot of experience with bass players. Isn't it so that a small mouthpiece can sound unfocused because it doesn't fit that player. Some sounds really big on it. Some players can sound small on a big mouthpiece ? Mouthpiece have to fit the player? And yes, its a lot about style and articulation. Its a lot about what sound we have in our head too. Even if we all have a kind of "finger print" in our sound we need to have a goal. But dont you all agree we have to get the right equipment? Big or small is both right if it fits and get us closer to our goal?
Charlie Vernon sounds very focused and clear in my ears. So also symphony players need that focus in their sound.
You have much more experience Doug, so I hope its OK I just ask?

Leif

[Doug Elliott]

There are the people who prefer smaller mouthpieces with more focus and those who prefer larger with bigger sound, and they are all on both sides of the fence and they all work.

Doug, I dont exactly agree. And Im sure you have a lot of experience with bass players. Isn't it so that a small mouthpiece can sound unfocused because it doesn't fit that player. Some sounds really big on it. Some players can sound small on a big mouthpiece ? Mouthpiece have to fit the player? And yes, its a lot about style and articulation. Its a lot about what sound we have in our head too. Even if we all have a kind of "finger print" in our sound we need to have a goal. But dont you all agree we have to get the right equipment? Big or small is both right if it fits and get us closer to our goal?
Charlie Vernon sounds very focused and clear in my ears. So also symphony players need that focus in their sound.
You have much more experience Doug, so I hope its OK I just ask?

Leif

Maybe I was generalizing a little too much. But the whole point of this thread is about what sound works in different situations, not about matching equipment to the player, which of course is important.
Yes, professionals like Charlie can sound very focused (and big) on huge equipment. But that's really exactly my point - i'm pretty sure Charlie doesn't do any big band playing, but if he did, his sound would fit right in and I doubt anyone would ask him to change it.

But can he swing?

[Savio]

But can he swing?

Maybe he can? This is not swing but still.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJxb6n-hoUQ

Amazing isn't it!

To the OP, you dont need one equipment for big band and one for classic. You just change the way you play.

Leif

[Kbiggs]

Style and articulation... change the way you play... yep. Equipment can help with basic tone quality (middle of the note) and feedback, but it won’t make the changes needed to play in an appropriate style.

[jthomas105]

How about this from Edward Kleinhammer and the CSO trombone section recording in 1967...
Jay Friedman, Glenn Dodson, Frank Crisafulli and Edward Kleinhammer

[sf105]

There isn't even one orchestral sound: French/English vs Middle-European, then American. Schubert vs Strauss. Etc, etc. Some of us feel that the "darker than a black hole at night" approach has reached its limits. And, come to think of it, even big bands have different period styles.

[brtnats]

Isn’t this just a matter of being an intelligent musician?

As noted above, pros with a *specific* job tailor their equipment to that job. Because of course they do. But what about pros with a non-specific job? George Roberts played for Stravinsky and Kenton with the same setup. So he changed the sound by making intelligent musical choices.

Bass trombone is all about knowing YOUR role in a particular piece of music. Are you directional reinforcement for the tuba and basses? Are you rounding out a bari sax? Are you the bottom of a trombone choir? Studying the music around you will help you make the right sound on any horn.

BUT, also make intelligent choices for your surroundings. A commercial or big band player may choose a smaller mouthpiece or a smaller horn than a classical player, simply because those gigs involve a lot more playing. Or they might not (I don’t).

Worry about your function within a given piece of music, and then play to that function. The horn will largely take care of itself.

[imsevimse]

I'm a doubler and play mostly 1st, 2nd and 4th parts in a big band. The bass trombone player should choose equipment that blends with the rest of the section or equipment that makes him stand out as his own section. This is the two categories of basstrombone players I meet in jazz/pop. In some music the bass trombone part does his own thing. A lot of modern pop and rock arrangements are like that. In an old Basie-style band the bass part plays with the tenors. Use the sound that fits the picture.

In classical music the bass trombone sound should match the other two trombone players. If first scales down then second and third should scale down too. It is not one sound for jazz and one for classical, it is many different sounds that need to be produced. It is a reason professionals have more than one tenor trombone and more than one bass trombone.

/Tom

[ALT]

I think it’s good to share our own perspective as trombone players on what it means to play with a ‘bass trombone sound’, but, also important to ask non-trombone players. In my experience for big bands:

- Bari sax players I’ve spoken with dig bass bone players who play with excellent intonation.
- Drummers/double bass players dig bass bone players who play with excellent time and feel.

I’m not negating the importance of sound, but, I think I’d prioritise working with the bass bone player who plays better time and style, than the bass bone player with a ‘better’ sound and a wonky time feel.

[Basbasun]

I like to play a horn that is easy to blend with the other horns, in orchestra a horn with more phat in bigband a more slender, if I am solo I like my Bach 45. Edward played absolutely wonderful in that record! A big beautiful sound, but for me I like a somewhat smaller sound if the tenors are playing 500 bore horns.

[imsevimse]

I like to play a horn that is easy to blend with the other horns, in orchestra a horn with more phat in bigband a more slender, if I am solo I like my Bach 45. Edward played absolutely wonderful in that record! A big beautiful sound, but for me I like a somewhat smaller sound if the tenors are playing 500 bore horns.

I collected a Mnt Vernon 45B with 9" bell and a Bach 50 slide. A fantastic versatile horn. No other bass trombone I've ever played comes close to this one. I have put my 12M Hammond in the receiver and it feels like a larger tenor, like a 42, but bigger. With a Hammond 20BL it becames a good bass, but small. The only other bass I have that behaves like this is my double valved Martin bass with .535 slide. It can also be used as either a tenor or a bass. The difference is the Bach 45B is a much better trombone both as a tenor and a bass. I'm thinking of the 45B as an alternative to my 42B. Maybe I bring this horn as an extra next time we meet to play quartets.

/Tom

[GBP]

Can we all agree George Roberts could fit his sound anywhere? Doug Yeo played in a big band. Randy Hawes, I believe, played in one of the ghost bands. Good sound is close to the same no matter where you are playing.

[BurckhardtS]

I'll echo Doug's sentiment:
But can they swing?

[Doug Elliott]

And I'll echo ALT's comment:

- Bari sax players I’ve spoken with dig bass bone players who play with excellent intonation.
- Drummers/double bass players dig bass bone players who play with excellent time and feel.

You can't go wrong with excellent intonation and time feel.
Both are FAR more important than "sound."

[Basbasun]

I do articulate different for different situations. That makes the sound different. I can, and have done thusends of times, used the same equipment in bigband and symphony orchestra with great sucses.
But, i do prefer to use differns horns, today many basstrombonists in bigband use a biger sound than I would.
I like to blend with two (or thre) tenor 547 bore and a very big CCtuba when needed, and on the other side of the coin to blend with thre 500 bore with small mouthpieces and sound like we are a unit.
I am very much awere that there are other viuwpoints, and that can sound good (enough) I just saing what I try to do.

[FOSSIL]

I go with the consensus that a good sound is a good sound and it can fit anywhere. Easier in the UK where the desired sound in different settings is pretty much the same... only the style changes.

Chris

[Savio]

I have written lots of stupid things about sound before, both here and the old forum. Maybe its just boiling down to have a goal to stretch for? Something to aim against? Each instrument group has their own character and so have the trombone. I hope we never loose that character sound because of other aspects like fast, loud, big register, etc. Sound and musicianship is the essence for me.

Anyway, this is what I try to do;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5pW4znMhSA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl3CgvmS6bw

Leif

[imsevimse]

I go with the consensus that a good sound is a good sound and it can fit anywhere. Easier in the UK where the desired sound in different settings is pretty much the same... only the style changes.

Chris

Is the desired sound from a bass tromboneplayer the same in classical and jazz in UK?

Here some refer to a jazz bass trombone sound as a commercial sound. A sound that sits in the wall on the other side of the room A sound that projects well but is not at all huge and massive but yet very present and can easy be heard without being to loud, like the sound of GR. The ideal classical bass trombone sound seams to be more body and not the same color, not the same spectra. There are bass trombone players who play with that huge sound in jazz too, but to me their huge sound is not as effective as the more focused and distinct sound in a big band setting. Especially in unison with small tenors in the middle and upper register the huge bass trombone sound takes over and cover the small bore trombones. In those situations the bass trombone player must back off a bit and let the tenors do what they do best. A smaller bass sound fits that better. There is a trend to play with a bigger bass trombone sound in jazz which I think is sad. The solution could be to bring that lighter sound to the classical music. I would like more of that Raymond Premru sound into classical bass trombone playing. That is as good as it gets. What I think

/Tom

[baileyman]

Some sections have smaller horns near .500 on all the parts except bass. In that kind of section the wrong bass can sound really woofy.

But does anybody care?

In the more typical section, with several sizes, sound concepts, jazz styles, eighth note interpretations on the top parts, how could it matter what happens in the bass? Not even I care then...

[Doug Elliott]

I think it's probably not possible to play "woofy" with good time feel and appropriate articulation in a big band.
If you can tell that it's woofy, it's late - and THAT's the real problem. Or the notes are too long.
Fix the style and the sound will fix itself by necessity.

[paulyg]

In any genre, a good bass trombone sound is one that is (a) pleasing and (b) audible. Pleasing is hard, so lots of players don't bother with audible. This goes for the components of the sound too- making a good articulation is hard, which is why we have so many woofers.

[GBP]

I started playing in a local college big band. I haven’t been a member of a jazz band since college 35 years ago. My focus has been orchestral playing. The college puts on a jazz festival in the winter that all the heavy hitters go to. Roosevelt H.S. (Won Essentially Ellington this year), Mt. Si H.S. and Garfield H.S. run by Clarence Acox (His bands have won E.E. like five times). The college band plays a set during the finals with the winning bands. At the end of the concert, Mr. Acox came up to me and complimented me on my sound. I didn’t do anything different playing with the big band then I would do playing with the Symphony; play with proper ensemble, clean articulations, good sound and time.

[FOSSIL]

In the UK there has been a pretty constant sound concept for bass for over 50 years.... what many would call classic bass. In recent times a more spread sound with far less front has become more popular.in some orchestral circles...... a very sad development in my opinion .
Chris

[imsevimse]

In the UK there has been a pretty constant sound concept for bass for over 50 years.... what many would call classic bass. In recent times a more spread sound with far less front has become more popular.in some orchestral circles...... a very sad development in my opinion .
Chris

Thank you. I did not know how to make myself clear. That's exactly what I meant in my post; "a more spread sound with far less front" is what the modern bass sound has become. It is not something I like. That kind of sound is hard to lock into as a tenor player in a big band section. What's then spread to the sides does not contain the colors I need. I need less of the fundamental and more of the corona if I'm on first.

/Tom

[bigbandbone]

I've been reading this thread it's great interest. Although I have a strong background in big band section playing, it was always on a small bore horn playing the upper books. Now that I've transitioned to bass full time I have found I have to work hard at getting that smaller and more penetrating sound we talk about. It's very easy to let it mushroom out sideways!
What is helping me immensely is playing along with GR recordings and working to match his sound. Give me another 20 years and I'll have it down pat!

[baileyman]

I think it's probably not possible to play "woofy" with good time feel and appropriate articulation in a big band.
If you can tell that it's woofy, it's late - and THAT's the real problem. Or the notes are too long.
Fix the style and the sound will fix itself by necessity.

I'm pretty sure if it was a time thing that's what I would have said. A too-big horn with few overtones is pretty bloody obvious, like a tuba sound in the section (check Kenton bands with and without tuba), no matter how well played. So I will agree to disagree.

[2bobone]

I couldn't agree more with "Fossil's" appraisal of the bass trombone sound that has become prominent these days. I think it might be useful to convene a gathering where the terms : dark, spread,centered,bright,front, focused --- where the plethora of terms that we have used over so many years could be discussed and agreed to as to their most descriptive purpose --- and then go forward with those descriptive terms as definitive terms. I argued with another bass trombonist for years over the characteristics of playing a conical instrument like a euphonium in contrast to a predominately cylindrical instrument like a trombone, only to find out that be totally agreed, but were using contradictory terminology ! What a difference that would make ! I think that same misunderstanding still is in play, to the detriment of an unfettered progression of our art. Talk to your colleagues ----

[hyperbolica]

Better yet, why don't you post links to recordings that you like or don't like. That would be more concrete.

[imsevimse]

Better yet, why don't you post links to recordings that you like or don't like. That would be more concrete.

If you are interested what I think you can search these players.

I give two examples of well known bass trombone players who have very different kind of sounds. Both are good and very well respected. One of them with a sound I don't like as much and the other with a sound I could die for. The two are Ben van Dijk and Raymond Premru. You have to find recordings with listen them and make up your mind. They sound completely different. Some will agree with me, some may not hear the difference and some will disagree.

/Tom

[hyperbolica]

The two are Ben van Dijk and Raymond Premru. You have to find recordings with listen them and make up your mind.
/Tom

Ok, thanks. Yeah, I get that difference. Premru to me is very trombony and van Dijk has a big warm fuzzy sound. Honestly, I love both sounds. I have two bass bones that lean each way. My "small bass" is brighter, more trombony, and my Kanstul leans toward the fuzzy, I think there are times for each.

Van Dijk is an incredible musician It's really hard to criticize that.

It was harder to find Premru playing alone. He's done so much composing. Very trombone-like sound. Classic textbook to me.

I think by default I lean toward preferring the trombony sound, being essentially a tenor player, but there are times I strive for a bit more velvet warmth. I find it more difficult to achieve the velvety fuzzy sound. For me, that transition is a question of hardware. I can't make my small horn sound fuzzy, and can only get the Kanstul to sound bright with something like a Ferguson V mouthpiece.

[DougHulme]

The only bass trombone sounds I listened to in my youth were therefore the greatest influence ever on me. In my humble opinion they were the two best bass trombonists to ever live they were of course George Roberts and Ray Premru. Every other sound you hear has been influenced by those two, as great as some of the greatest players of today are they are (their own) second hand version of those two! (I love overstating the point to make a point but it does have some merit to it).

[Bach5G]

C Vernon? D Taylor?

[Burgerbob]

Yikes.

[hyperbolica]

Yikes.

Anything to add? Care to chance an opinion? Surely you have a preference?

[DougHulme]

Bach5G » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:00 pm
C Vernon? D Taylor?

Well theyre not too shabby!!!

[DougHulme]

Thinking out loud here... George would have been old enough to have been both Charlie Vernon and Dave Taylors father. Ray Premru burst on the scene with his spectacular playing 12 years before Charlie and Dave Taylor is the same age as me so both could have been influeneced by George and Ray? Like I say just thinking out loud!