Doubling: large tenor mpc and small bass mpc

[Bach5G]

For doublers, it would seem moving between a large Alessi-like tenor mpc (1.06”) and a 1.5G-sized mpc (1.06”) would be the easiest solution.

What says you?

[Kdanielsen]

Tried it. Didn’t work at all for me.

I use the same rim (Griego Alessi 4) for all tenors and alto. I use a Griego GP6 on bass. I could never get the sound or feel I wanted on anything smaller.

Don’t forget that the outside diameter of those mouthpieces is very different. I think that matters.

[TheBoneRanger]

The danger, for me, when rim diameters are similar between bass and large tenor, is that their isn’t a big enough sound differential between the two horns.

In order to make my bass trombone and large tenor sound different enough to actually warrant playing them, and to make a quintessential sound on each horn, I need a bigger difference between mouthpieces than what you are describing.

Andrew

[brtnats]

I tried the similar rims concept, and it just did not suit me. I have much better luck with a larger bass mouthpiece and a medium sized-tenor mouthpiece.

I’ve honestly come to believe that the most critical thing about doubling effectively is finding two instruments that “line up” similarly. I can’t imagine how hard it would be to play two different trombones with two different sound concepts that didn’t have similar tuning tendencies and slide-to-bell ratio relationships.

[Matt K]

Depends on what level you're playing. Would you sub for the NYPhil on bass trombone? Probably not. But generally speaking, yes. A 1.06" size is used by professionals and amateurs for both tenor and bass trombone. It's at the 'extreme' edge of small for bass and large for tenor but yeah, then you only have one rim to worry about. Eventually, you might find it limiting but it's a great way to break into bass if the size works for your face. I played a 104N size on bass for awhile before eventually transitioning into what I use now, which is an LB114. My needs became more demanding but the 104N works really well for me so I was able satisfy all of the needs on something that would be considered an extreme for years before that became an issue.

FWIW, the 1.5G is a 1.08" and is actually an rather common size; you could go your whole life on it if it worked for you. Same with the Alessi 1. Obviously some high profile individuals play it. If those two sizes work, then yeah it'll be super easy. If those sizes don't you're going to run into issues, as anecdotally proven by the accounts of people trying and preferring something else here. You might find it easier to do the opposite. Neither method is superior nor inferior they just represent people different physiologies, demands on their playing, and artistic preferences.

[paulyg]

I embarked upon the doubling (actually quadroupling) journey about a year ago. I went from having played tenor my entire life to playing tenor+alto, then tenor+alto+bass, then tenor+alto+bass+contrabass in the space of about three months.

First of all, if you have quite a bit of playing to do, I do not recommend embarking on a similar venture. I went through a period of about a month where every horn-even tenor- felt foreign to me.

I focused mostly on being able to approach any of the horns and do the same basic warmup on each of them. Just basic slurs between the 2nd and 6th partials. Then I would progress to legato descending scales. For the most part I didn't touch pedal tones. I worked mainly out of the Schlossberg book, transposing as necessary.

It took about a month to get comfortable doing just the same simple warmup on all four horns (also, a 20 minute warmup took about 2 hours, with increased rest). After that period, though, I got to the point where I could pick up any of the instruments and be perfectly comfortable with the basics. Give me two minutes, and I could play a solo on any of them (well, maybe except for contra).

I took a different approach to mouthpiece selection- I dispensed with the "one rim to rule them all" philosophy, and rotated through my mouthpiece collection to find what piece worked best on each horn. I wound up with fairly similar pieces on tenor and bass- a GB Alessi 1 and anything between a 1.5G and 1 3.8GD on bass- but went extremely small on alto, settling on a Bach 15A. I simply couldn't make larger rims work on the alto (not for lack of trying).

My point is that nobody is going to be able to pick up a new instrument and sound great- there is no magic bullet doubling mouthpiece that is going to turn you into a great bass player if you've only played tenor for decades. Those who would cling to a single rim size are (in my opinion) dooming themselves to never fully committing to the instrument they are holding. If I drop in a tenor piece with a bass rim (I have a Brassark Friedman with Mr. Bass and 1.5G rims), it sounds like a woofy tenor. Might as well raise a white flag and yell "I'm just a doubler!"

To summarize, if you intend to double with any success:
- Be prepared to suck for a while on your new and old instruments
- Be prepared to put in the time to re-learn the basics of playing
- Leave behind any conscious/unconscious preconceptions about how the trombone is played. You are re-learning ALL your instruments.
- Don't use drones or a metronome until you're a couple weeks in. It's important to build a baseline before you start to strive for anything performance-level.
- Explore the strengths of each instrument relative to each other. Practice low and loud on contra- practice high and soft on alto- practice in the staff on bass- practice legato on tenor. The skills will carry over to the other instruments, and they will be learned faster and more effectively, because you are using an instrument designed for that thing.

[Burgerbob]

An Alessi 1 feels OK to me on tenor, but a little large, and a 1.5G on bass feels tiny and restrictive.

For me, the rim size needs to match the horn. To use the same on all means I am sacrificing sound and playability on all.

[tbonesullivan]

Depends depends depends. I tried that for a while, but my tenor playing was completely diffuse sounding with a 1.5 size rim, even with a small cup and such. For tenor playing, the 25.9mm rim just works for me.

But that's me, and may not work for you. only way to find out is to try!

[Kbiggs]

I play tenor and bass. I have similar instruments—a 42C and a 50B3 customized—and I use a DE 102 on tenor (sometimes a GB Alessi 5.5) and DE 113 on bass. I have never tried the “one rim to rule them all” approach. I find that it’s easier get a characteristic sound and technique when using equipment that is an appropriate size for the instrument and part. Yes, some players can use the same rim on different instruments. I don’t want to because I don’t like the sound when I use a “compromise” mouthpiece.

[Mv2541]

For doublers, it would seem moving between a large Alessi-like tenor mpc (1.06”) and a 1.5G-sized mpc (1.06”) would be the easiest solution.

What says you?

I did this for a few years. I found it easy on the face to switch but after playing bass exclusively for a while I realized a 1.5 was too small for the sound I hear. Since going back to tenor primarily I realized the 106 is so much more work than it needs to be (I guess pretty similar to Burgerbob overall).

While it totally works for some people, I agree with the idea that different rim sizes work on different horns for different applications.

[hyperbolica]

I play 104 rims on all my tenors, and the smallest I can use on bass is Ferguson V (about 1.5 size - roughly 108 rim) and the biggest is Ferguson L (roughly 112). 1.25g is pretty much the sweet spot. I can play the Ferguson V on tenor too.

For me, the tenor and bass embouchures are just too different to use the same mouthpiece. The Ferguson V is a bit small for serious low bass and maybe a little large for most tenor stuff. (perfect for 3rd bone stuff).

I did try to make both tenor and bass work with a single rim size, and I just couldn't get where I wanted to go. So I use 104 on tenor and around 112 for bass.

[Basbasun]

Years ago I tried the same rim aproatch, I did work for all tenors, not for tenor to bass. Actually very few players play the same rim on tenor and bass, never heard anybody doing it with the best sound.

[Bach5G]

Well, I guess we’ll see, as I found a Griego-Alessi 1C. I’ll receive it in a week.

I’m playing a 1 1/2G-size bass mpc these days. I don’t see moving from one to the other will be that difficult. Sound, style- these should be pretty malleable.

[Burgerbob]

Let us know! The 1C is pretty massive if you're coming from a "normal" tenor piece.

[Bach5G]

A little bit more detail: I’m playing more bass trombone these days, after a particularly dry period. I play at an amateur level and play 2nd in a community orch, and bass in a comm big band.

I previously got up to a Laskey 93D, a really great mpc, but it required a pretty serious commitment and it was difficult to go back to a tenor mpc (I was on a DE104 during that period.)

Now I’m playing on a 1 1/2G-sized bass piece (GB, Kanstul GR), approx 27.25 mm ID. I try to work through similar ranges on both horns (I go up another 4th on tenor, but, functionally, I might tap out at Eb, and a little lower on bass).

The GA (Joe’s “work horse mpc” says CG) is spec’d at 26.924 mm. That’s pretty close in size.

I may not be after the big bass bone sound. Right note, in tune, in time (if I can achieve even that!) will suffice. I have pretty much the same goals on tenor.

[imsevimse]

I have no problem to switch between rims. I can play any mouthpiece from 15E to 1 with no problem. It took some time it did not work right away.

/Tom

[dershem]

Each of my horns has a mouthpiece that fits it/me the best. You can't just go by numbers - you have to experiment. You also have to treat each instrument as its own thing, rather than as an extension of something else.

[Bach5G]

So I bit on a Griego-Alessi 1C @ 1.06” id. It feels pretty similar to the Kanstul GR ( a slightly oversized 1.5 I think) I’ve been playing. Different timbre and response, but that’s to be expected. Higher range a little bit more difficult; lower range, FWIW, easier, more extended.

IOW, pretty much as expected. We’ll see how things look/sound in 6 months.

[ssking2b]

Each of my horns has a mouthpiece that fits it/me the best. You can't just go by numbers - you have to experiment. You also have to treat each instrument as its own thing, rather than as an extension of something else.

Bravo. Couldn't have said it any better. BTW I use an (roughly) 11C size piece on my .500 tenor, 5B ish size piece on my . 547 tenor, a Marc 106 on my .571 bass bone, and large Conn Helleburg on tuba.

I treat each horn as a separate instrument, and have different expectations of each. Trying to render them all the same, or too similar never worked for me.

[brassmedic]

Totally agree. I treat tenor, bass, small tenor, and alto as completely different instruments. I don't try to make them "the same" because they aren't. I think a good question to ask, if you have trouble "going back" to tenor after playing bass, is it because you were playing bass, or is it because you stopped practicing tenor during that time? I practice whatever instrument I'm going to be playing. If I don't practice the instrument I'm going to be playing, then I don't sound as good. Whatever other instruments I did or didn't practice isn't really relevant.

[tbonesullivan]

For me, I use different mouthpieces. I just use a different way of playing and setup with alto, tenor, and bass. And now, tuba. It's really about the work you are putting in on each instrument, as the airflow and sound concepts are not the same.

[adryalm]

This might be an interesting article to add to this thread.

https://timsmithtrombone.com/2014/11/01 ... -doubling/

[Bach5G]

Great article!