New rotor valves

[mrdeacon]

So I keep kicking around the idea of replacing the valves on my Minick bass trombone. The valves are a bit leaky and for the horn to play at 100% I've got to get them replaced.

I do love how the horn currently plays but when you play it side by side with a horn with rotors in tip top shape you can tell they leak a bit.

I've had recommended to me to replace them with Olsen rotors but I'm a bit hesitant to do that as the Olsen rotors are quite a bit wider than my Elkhart Conn rotors.... meaning I'd need to alter the wrap. I'd also possibly have to have my original Minick linkage and paddles replaced which I'm not fond of doing either...

How much are Rotax rotors going for these days? Are Yamaha rotors an affordable option?

Or should stop worrying and just get Olsen rotors and have the wrap adjusted? Considering how well they play and how affordable they are I'm getting more and more tempted to go this route!!

[Burgerbob]

Rotax are crazy expensive.

[Bonearzt]

Rotax are crazy expensive.

And not always easy to get.

Yes the Olsen rotary valves are a bit bigger and would require a bit of slice-and-dice to install, same with the linkages, but the majority of the existing plumbing & levers will remain intact!
No real need to change anything drastic!!

I think you would be very happy with the result!!


Eric

[GBP]

Kanstul possibly?

[Burgerbob]

CR are very large, even compared to Olsen.

[Neo Bri]

How about twin Holton Monster Valves? Those would be really cool...^_^

[Schlitz]

.

[hornbuilder]

Another option would be to have a "valve job" done to the existing valves. This entails plating the rotors with copper and nickel to bring them up to size, and then precisely fitting them. Then nothing has to be altered. While this is not cheap, it is less expensive and "much" less invasive than installing new valves, of any sort.

M

[blast]

Keep it original.... it is a bit of history and you will lose much of it's value. Have the valves plated up or use some heavier oil. I use heavy oil on my Fuchs....never going to touch that valve.

Chris

You could just sell it to me .....

[Fafner]

Keep it original.... it is a bit of history and you will lose much of it's value. Have the valves plated up or use some heavier oil. I use heavy oil on my Fuchs....never going to touch that valve.

Chris

You could just sell it to me .....

I agree. Changing the valves on an old trombone is a mistake. The instruments are typically balanced to play best with small valve/s.

I’d try hetmann 14 and if you’re still not satisfied, take it to a tech that can reseal the valves as good as new.

[harrisonreed]

Get actual minick style valves from brass ark, as seen on this horn:

http://brassark.com/brassarktrombone.html

Note, they are not Lindberg valves.

[MTbassbone]

Can the valves be rebuilt? By maybe someone that is familiar with Minick's work?

[greenbean]

I agree. If I owned a Minick bass, I would certainly never remove the valves...

Have them rebuilt. They will be as good as new.

[mrdeacon]

The biggest problem is one of the rotors was damaged at one point.

There's a large patch on the F attachment valve, expertly done by Robb Stewart but it still should be replaced. I think some of the leaking is due to the patch in addition to the valves being well used.

Maybe I'll put a shout out on the forum soon and see if I can pick up a pair of Elkhart Conn valves. If anyone has any lying around send me a PM!!!

And Harrison the horn has normal Conn rotors on it and not Minick style valves.

[mrdeacon]

So I should check out Hetman 14?

Hows the thick Monster Oil?

I've been trying to find a thicker oil for a while as a temporary fix and Ultra Pure seems to work well enough... but I think I could use something thicker.

If I can find oil that works well that'll give me plenty of time to find some new valves ect.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah I got that the rotors were conns. But...

If I had a Minnick and wanted to blow some dough... I'd set it up with minnick style valves, similarly to the 62HCL

Completely ludicrous .... but it would be damn cool. Probably the only one in the world.

Those rotors are cool because tgey are actually 100% straight pipe wgen not engaged, and have two C bends on either side of the straight section. No other rotor is actually straight pipe when not engaged.

shaped like this:

)I(

[mrdeacon]

I had a super cool dependent TrueBore Shires for awhile and it was way too big for me. Not the same of course... but similar idea. I need some resistance on bass haha.

[MTbassbone]

Maybe contact Robb Stewart and discuss. Or Brad Close or Noah Gladstone. I am sure there would be some super ideas between the three of them. The only thing I will say about a complete rebuild is it likely will change how it plays: good or bad, don't know. I recently had my Edwards axial flow valves replaced at the factory. When I got the horn back it was different, and not in a good way. Maybe there is a solution that is in between doing nothing and total replacement.

[Kbiggs]

Here’s another vote for rebuilding the valves.

If the valves can’t be rebuilt, you might think about the Instrument Innovations rotary valves. They are not much larger than standard rotors. I don’t know how large Minick valves are. The Instrument Innovations rotaries feel much more open than standard rotors, but not as open as Thayers, Hagmanns, CR’s, or TrueBores.

[stoney]

If you are in favor of replacing the valves I would contact Noah Gladstone about the valves used in his Fuchs copy.
They are specially built valves form Zirnbauer in Germany that they specifically designed to be similar to the original Fuchs valves.

You can read more about that on his blog about that on his website or his facebook site.

[Matt K]

Ironically, Yamaha rotors are quite different than most of their other parts. They are exorbitantly expensive and rarely available from my experience.

I would also second hornbuilder's advice on rebuilding them if you hadn't mentioned that there were tears in some of the components. Also, who knows how much of this is authentic Minick, how much of it was re-worked at some point, or even if it was even worked on by him (my apologies if the authenticity has been verified and I didn't see it skimming... in running on about 46 minutes of sleep..).

I'm not nearly as ardent about not touching something original and vintage as others are (obviously, by my ridiculous collection, not in the sense that it is expansive but in the way that it has odd random and capriciously decided projects). However, I would personally try to keep this as close to the original as possible. I can't recommend Olsen rotors YET because mine are currently being installed. Tech doing that work should be finished with it very soon though and then its off to get lacquered and have me play... that said, there have been some challenges to get my parts to work with them because of some of the design choices of the Olsen valve. However, the price differential is not even close compared to getting a Rotax even with the extra work to get them working. Same with the CR because of their profile.

You could also consider having someone like M&W, Rath, or possibly Shires restore it... or at the very least replace with their valves. I've seen all of them do similar work before; I don't know if Shires is currently doing that kind of work but I imagine whatever valve the M&W horns have is going to be superb (as all of the horns coming out of their factory have been really great from top to bottom). Rath would be either Rotax or Hagmann though which would be different for sure. M&W did a... was it a Mt. Vernon 50 not too long ago that looks unbelievable and probably plays like a dream. Very little was changed about it from what I could tell except for the rotors. (Or maybe they weren't even changed?) In either case, the guys up there (of which member hornbuilder is one!) do great work and would probably at least be worth contacting.

Since you're near them, obviously there are some great things happening restoration wise at the... Brass Medic(?) referenced earlier - I think that's the name of that place. Very cool restorations coming out of it. The "Minick" style rotors are going to be a lot different but they can provide them. I'd go a different route but they're obviously also capable of sourcing rotors and whatnot out there that might fit the bill.

Sorry, some of that is rambly, it's nap time. PS working on the emails... I think when I wake up.

[trompanner]

So I keep kicking around the idea of replacing the valves on my Minick bass trombone.
...
I've had recommended to me to replace them with Olsen rotors but I'm a bit hesitant to do that as the Olsen rotors are quite a bit wider than my Elkhart Conn rotors.... meaning I'd need to alter the wrap. I'd also possibly have to have my original Minick linkage and paddles replaced which I'm not fond of doing either...
...
...should stop worrying and just get Olsen rotors and have the wrap adjusted? Considering how well they play and how affordable they are I'm getting more and more tempted to go this route!!

@mrdeacon: Any developments on your Minick bass bone valve job?

Question for all: Anybody have experiences with the Olsen Instrument Innovations rotary valves? Thinking of taking that plunge myself. Thanks everybody

[paulyg]

I have a Bach 42 with an Olsen valve (currently for sale, see Aidan's (formerly Burgerbob) posts.

It is an excellent valve. Definitely a rotary valve, so don't expect it to blow like a thayer. For me this is a good thing, especially on a tenor. There's no tightness, however.

The action is super smooth. I did have some teething problems with finding the right oil. Also, the tolerances are quite tight, so if it's put together a little sloppily (the bearing plates), it will rub the casing.

Finally, it is a very heavy rotary valve. Keep in mind that many of the perceived differences in how thayers play versus how rotors play come from the respective weights of the valves- thayers tend to be FAR heavier. The Olsen rotor is so huge that it definitely pushes the sound characteristics of the horn in that direction. Coupled with the resistance of the valve (again, for me a good thing), this makes for an incredibly dense, yet nimble sound. The slide on my 42 is very open, to the point of being unusually so. This is a great combination with the Olsen rotor.

[Bonearzt]

If you wanted to go the route of getting the rotors rebuilt & refitted, I would seriously talk with Osmun Brass in Boston!!


Eric

[Jimkinkella]

Rebuilding is a very cool idea for that horn, but still might leave a bit to be desired for your main horn.
I agree that particular horn could use a refresh.
I'd vote for the Rotax from your ideas, but I'm going to throw out Greenhoe.
Killer valves on a dependent if you can get them...
I wouldn't recommend the Conns, if you're going to change that horn there's no reason to not make it better.
The Olsens are ok, well built but not my personal favorite.
Whatever you do, please keep the original parts in a bag somewhere for the next guy.

[bellend]

Who's told you the valves are shot??

A bit leaky?? sounds like should be an easy fix

Go to the best repair company you can find that specializes in French Horns and get them to sort the valves out.
Everything can be repaired.

If you want different valves sell the horn as is to someone who will appreciate it and buy a new one with those valves on.

Just my two cents worth

BellEnd

[LIBrassCo]

The Olsen Rotors are made extremely well. They are highly serviceable, attractive to the eye, and will play more open than a traditional design. As a player I certainly like them. As a horn builder, I like them less. The angles of the elbows are not exactly 90° or 180°, which make them a little more difficult to install. For the additional time for fitment I charge more over other rotors.

Theres nothing wrong with working on a Minnick horn, or any horn you own for that matter. It's your horn and your choice. I'm currently doing a custom horn out of a Minnick 62h that was on its last leg, so rather than see it shoved into the back of a closet somewhere now it will have a new lease on life.

Done right, the Olsen rotors can make for a top quality sound, and the horn I recently finished with them is a testament to that. Fwiw, I know people tend to shy away from the Conn lindberg valves (which I was recently just told is actually a minnick design) but built properly into a horn I find them to but quite excellent. Very fast, short throw, equal or more open than a thayer, and also lend themselves to a unique design. I know they had issues in the beginning, but Conn has since changed the coatings on the core to resolve them. A common comment is they have a darker sound, which I believe is due to the .580 tubing to match their bore. To fix this, I typically make tapered ferrules stepping them up to .593 tubing. Seems to do the trick. Only drawback is they take around 6 months to get from the factory.

[mrdeacon]

Hi guys! So first off... I haven't decided what I'm doing yet. I'm still pretty torn between picking up Olsen rotors or finding some old Conn rotors and modifying those as needed.

One thing I'm unsure of is if the Conn rotors on my horn have been opened up or not. I have not cracked open the rotors on this horn (I haven't needed to) and I'm unsure if Minick modified them at all.

Hopefully, the pictures clear up any authenticity of my horn and show what I'm talking about when it comes to damage on the first valve.

The patch has been well done on the first valve (work was done by Rob Stewart) and I'm not sure you can see in the pictures... but there is oil leaking to the outside of the valves. I'm not sure what the damage was but I do believe the integrity of the valve casing has been compromised. But... for now, the valve is completely usable and still has life to it. I just want to fix it before it becomes a larger issue and I want to fix it while I still have the expendable cash.

Here are some pics!

As I was told the horn was made for a local LA cat in the late 70's early 80's. This is I believe one of 3 or 4 horns Minick made in this style. 9 1/4" Gold Brass one piece bell with a Fuchs style throat, J bend and single bore slide with a Bach 50B crook. I believe the outers are Gold Brass also... I've heard differently stories on where Minick might have sourced the outers from.

Couple neat things to notice are the J crook and the one piece bell which has a super uneven seam, which is super groovy. Looks like Minick cut it crooked and said screw it when he brazed it together. Also note the partially lightned slide, I thought that was neat.

Also plugged into the horn is a Symington 1 1/2G. Check them out if you're looking for an awesome 1 1/2!

Enjoy the horn porn!

[Tbarh]

Wow... Thats really something special.. This is probably an attempt of building a version of a Williams 10, Per the J-bend and the massive bell throat... Must sound awsome!
Btw!.. I am testing a brass Symington 1.5 G brass right now, and a friend of mine is gjetting a Zirc today... Simple awsome.. Plays itself.. Gonna buy!

Trond

[mrdeacon]

Wow... Thats really something special.. This is probably an attempt of building a version of a Williams 10, Per the J-bend and the massive bell throat... Must sound awsome!
Btw!.. I am testing a brass Symington 1.5 G brass right now, and a friend of mine is gjetting a Zirc today... Simple awsome.. Plays itself.. Gonna buy!

Trond

It's for sure inspired by the Williams 10 to some degree. I always describe this horn as if an Elkhart 62h and a Bach 50B had a baby it'd be this horn.

Seriously those Symington pieces are something special!!! His piece seems to work really well in this horn too. Balances out the smaller bell really well without having to play a bucket.

[Bonearzt]

Really cool horn!!
Can you tell where the oil is leaking from? If it's from the flange on the F rotor, that should be relatively easy to resolder. That "patch" is due to the original knuckle being cracked where it's brazed into the casing.
Not my preferred method of repair, but I'm NOT going to argue against anything done by Rob Stewart!

I still recommend having the rotors rebuilt over replacing them. I believe the Conn valves from that time were pretty much spot on and probably didn't need any modification. But since I wasn't there, I can't say for certain. But not something to be concerned with.

Eric

[bellend]

Thanks for posting those pics' very interesting to see.

it does indeed seem to be going towards the Williams 10 route with the J bend and bell .

The Bach 50 bell is (according to Jeff Reynolds) " I’ve owned some famous horns over the years including a 1921 Fuchs model, tuning in the slide, Conn Bass Trombone owned by Ralph Sauer’s teacher, Bob Harper.As Harper tells the story, Vincent borrowed his 1921 Fuchs model so as to make dimensional plans for his first foray into the world of bass trombones. So this gives one the Alpha for Bach Bass Trombones." )

I am certain the Bach50 , Conn 60 series, and all Holton basses are copies of the Fuchs bell, the really interesting question is what was the Fuchs based on? a German F Bass may be???
I have played a 62H with a Minick one piece yellow bell on it that was absolutely superb so if yours is anything like that you have a gem.

Interesting mix of parts on the hand slide looks like the top stay is off a Bach light weight slide and the one on the slide is Conn. Has the top outer always been that way with no over sleeve?

Thanks

BellEnd

[Kbiggs]

In another thread, Gabe Langfur suggested M&W valves as a replacement. That might be another good candidate if you decide to replace rather than repair the valves.

[mrdeacon]

Interesting mix of parts on the hand slide looks like the top stay is off a Bach light weight slide and the one on the slide is Conn. Has the top outer always been that way with no over sleeve?

As far as I know the slide was originally made as lightweight top outer and conn sleeved bottom outer. Other than Rath I've never seen anyone else do that! I think it plays pretty darn well. The slide plays fantastic on it's own right.

The slide is a hot mess of parts. It's a mix of almost every manufacturer. I've talked with Noah (who sold me the horn) and a few techs and none of us can really tell if he intentionally designed the slide around those specific parts or if he ran out of Conn and Bach parts that weekend and had to scrounge around his spare parts bin!

I spot Olds, Holton, Conn and Bach parts all on the slide. I've also got a Brass Ark BH62H pipe in there. Sadly the original pipe was shot when I purchased the horn. Short of a original Minick C pipe this is the best fit I could find!

Bonezart, I'll reply to your post about the leaking when I get the chance tonight! I would just like to say that my goal for replacing the valves is like I said earlier is to prevent further damage to the horn and to make it more playable. I'm not looking to supercharge my horn or anything like that, if I was I'd sell this horn and pick up a M&W!

[Matt K]

My 525/547 is like that. The upper is a 645 slide which has a small, built-in oversleeve (drawn part of the tube) but is really quite light; the lower tube is from an 8820 which has a rather heavy nickel oversleeve. Excellent sound and action!

[mrdeacon]

My 525/547 is like that. The upper is a 645 slide which has a small, built-in oversleeve (drawn part of the tube) but is really quite light; the lower tube is from an 8820 which has a rather heavy nickel oversleeve. Excellent sound and action!

Yeah, what I find interesting... is it sort of has that open feel of a lightweight slide but also is still slotted like a standard weight slide.

I had the chance to plug Burgerbobs old 60h slide in my horn at one point and my horn basically played like a 62h with a Bach 50Bish bell. Significantly changed how the horn felt. The half weighted slide and the 50B crook really open up the horn and make it its own sort of beast.

[Trav1s]

I appreciate this conversation and mrdeacon's desire to honor the horn for what it is.

So with that in mind, I took the same approach with the Rotax installed on my '69 Conn 79H (I know it is not Minick). I loved everything about the horn except the leak (and hidden past repair) on the leg of the rotor. After speaking pretty extensively about the options available, I decided to go with the smallest bore Rotax and to have Benn Hansson do the repair. Other than the valve replacement and related adjustments, and a spare Bach 36B piece swap, the horn looks pretty true to original, including a modern variation on a sting linkage.

So what about the results? As Benn originally told me - it plays like a classic Elkhart Conn with a light weight bell and heavy slide except much better. Between the leak going into the valve and use of the 36B leftover, it is all Conn but much better. It is much more consistent between the B flat/F sides of the horn and much easier produce similar sound on both sides. Very much happy with the result.

[mrdeacon]

Update! I purchased a set of Olsen valves and they get here on Monday!

John Sandhagen will be the one installing the valves on the horn. The plan is to use as much of the original parts as possible and keep any cutting to a minimum.

I'd like to keep the wrap (ala Minick Holton style with the two S pieces) and large crooks more or less identical. John said the wrap will likely have to be tilted like on a 1662 or Getzen 1062FD wrap, but it shouldn't cause any problems and allow me to use almost all the original parts. I'll also have him make new linkages and paddles. I might also have him custom make a brass thumb rest too...

While we're at it... I will make sure to have John measure my Conn rotors to see if Minick modified them at all and find out what some of the other mystery specs are on the horn.

I'll post pictures when the work has been finished!!

Also for anyone interested in purchasing from Instrument Innovations their customer service is fantastic. Kim emailed within 5 minutes of the purchase confirming the parts that I ordered and making sure myself and my tech were ordering the correct parts. On top of that when the order finally shipped Kim included additionals ferrules and dummy plates for free to make sure the conversion goes off without a hitch!

I can't say enough good things about my experience with Instrument Innovations so far!

[GeirHorns]

Hey to all,

This is my first post!
I just wanted to ask, if the Conversion is finished and if you are happy with the result.

Iam interested this topic, because I got myself a Conn 62 from 1970 and a 70h, which was modified already and now I plan to put hagmanns on it.
On the 62H I only split the Triggers, just for ease of use, and was able to still do the second lever with the original string mechanism. Iam super happy with that, because it has the shortest throw of any 2. Valve lever I ever had.

I also recently put hagmanns on a old Bach 50 and I found the change on the finished horn only positiv. The costumer said the Same, what made me really happy.

All mods made by myself in my relatively new shop in Augsburg, Germany.
I look forward to get into more conversations on the Forum!

[Digidog]

Update! I purchased a set of Olsen valves and they get here on Monday!

John Sandhagen will be the one installing the valves on the horn. The plan is to use as much of the original parts as possible and keep any cutting to a minimum.

I'd like to keep the wrap (ala Minick Holton style with the two S pieces) and large crooks more or less identical. John said the wrap will likely have to be tilted like on a 1662 or Getzen 1062FD wrap, but it shouldn't cause any problems and allow me to use almost all the original parts. I'll also have him make new linkages and paddles. I might also have him custom make a brass thumb rest too...

While we're at it... I will make sure to have John measure my Conn rotors to see if Minick modified them at all and find out what some of the other mystery specs are on the horn.

I'll post pictures when the work has been finished!!

Also for anyone interested in purchasing from Instrument Innovations their customer service is fantastic. Kim emailed within 5 minutes of the purchase confirming the parts that I ordered and making sure myself and my tech were ordering the correct parts. On top of that when the order finally shipped Kim included additionals ferrules and dummy plates for free to make sure the conversion goes off without a hitch!

I can't say enough good things about my experience with Instrument Innovations so far!

I hope everything went well with the valve change on your horn!

I would love to hear how the horn turned out, and to see what it looks like with its new valves in place. Please post pics, if there are any.

Wasn't there a guy who made 3D-scanned copies of valves, that made some posts here a couple of years ago? That could have been a neat solution to fixing a worn out valve core.