Focus and intonation with double valves in the middle register

[sirisobhakya]

In a song that our school band will use for upcoming competition in December, there is a passage with rapid (1.5 F, 0.25 G, 0.25 F, 3 D), at 120BPM. The bass slide is quite heavy for a girl playing it (Bach 50B3L) and she cannot move the slide between 1-4-1-4 quickly enough while maintaining good tone. I also tried it, but my (quite) fat arm has too much mass and causes disruption in the airflow as well.

We have also tried 6-4-6-4, but while the distance is shorter, for Asians with not so long arm, to hit 6th position well is also problematic and usually end up sharp.

I once tried moving it down one octave for fun, and found that with T1-4-T1-FD1 (on a Bb-F-Gb-D bass), or T1-FEb1-T1-FEb2 (on a Bb-F-Eb dependent bass) the passage is quite easy with minimal slide movement. The problem is, when move up one octave to the original notes, the middle D does not focus well. It also sounds stuffy. I know I have no open low D to compare, but the low D at FD1 always has snappy intonation and response, at least for me on any horn.

So, what causes this? And is there any way to overcome it? Or should we focus on making 1-4-1-4 work?

[SimmonsTrombone]

Try playing the F in flat second with the Gb valve on the Bach independent bass.

[afugate]

I'd play it 6-4-1-4 (or 1-4-6-4) so the slide only changes direction once instead of sawing back-and-forth.

--Andy in OKC.

[timothy42b]

You might be mid-diagnosing. Yes there is difficulty moving the slide quickly, but it may also be that the notes aren't speaking in that register because of embouchure set rather than valves.

[AndrewMeronek]

The bass slide is quite heavy for a girl playing it (Bach 50B3L) and she cannot move the slide between 1-4-1-4 quickly enough while maintaining good tone. I also tried it, but my (quite) fat arm has too much mass and causes disruption in the airflow as well.

Moving the slide should never disrupt the airflow.

I'm a big fan of the 'throwing slide' concept of fast, snappy slide motion. There are some other discussions of this on this forum and a few notable Youtube videos like this:



and here, starting at around 5:20:



The general idea is that you allow your fingers to separate from one side of the slide brace just a little bit (not both sides - otherwise you're actually throwing the slide across the room!) and then stop the slide where you want it to stop with the fingers on the side of the brace you need to use to stop it. Allowing the slight separation should both make it easier to move the slide quickly (even if it is heavy) and makes it possible to more easily eliminate angular forces to the sides that cause the trombone to move.

This requires the slide to be in absolute pristine condition: clean, correctly lubricated, no damage, no spots in the motion where the friction of the slide tubes changes the resistance.

[AndrewMeronek]

Along these lines, there is a nicely made video about trombone slide technique from Jazz At Lincoln Center's Jazz Academy, which does not advocate for any separation like I'm talking about. But, check out the motion at around 2:45:



That little bit of motion that you can see in the bell is likely to cause problems for her when she really starts to push for speed.

That said, my description isn't the only way people have used to get really good, smooth, non-jerky slide technique. A notable example is Frank Rosolino, where you can see in a lot of this broadcast that Frank uses most of the time the technique discussed above. But, IMHO he's not really the best model for slide technique because if you watch carefully, he actually changes his grip a lot and as a kind of 'do what works best at the current moment' kind of approach.

[Kbiggs]

I'd play it 6-4-1-4 (or 1-4-6-4) so the slide only changes direction once instead of sawing back-and-forth.

--Andy in OKC.

This^. It’s never too early to learn alternate positions, and this seems like a good opportunity.

If it’s a contest piece, and the judges are often “listening with their eyes,” then maybe the other members of the section can play it with these alternate positions, too. They will probably be surpised at how much easier it is.

[blast]

Yes, 1-4-6-4-1 etc..... Don't over think slide holding..... more pro people hold the slide 'wrongly' in a particular way.....just look at vids.... seems to work.
Alternate positions..... the real key to slide technique.

Chris

[afugate]

As a kid I hated alternate positions because, frankly, I just didn't play them in tune, so they sounded bad.

As an adult, I've focused for years on making them work and sound just like traditional positions. I taught our daughter from the very beginning to use them just as regularly as traditional positions. She's now a junior in high school and is a master of playing alternate positions for fluidity. #ProudDad

--Andy in OKC

[timothy42b]

I'd play it 6-4-1-4 (or 1-4-6-4) so the slide only changes direction once instead of sawing back-and-forth.

--Andy in OKC.

I'd agree.

But then, I think the opening triplet in the Rimsky-Korsakov should be played 1-4-6-6-5.

I've never seen even the most rabid advocate of alternates do that, but it would make sense.

Or, Rolling Thunder. Alternates make a huge difference in that piece, but every year the pros get on stage at the end of ATW and I've yet to see anyone do anything other than saw back and forth. Sure, they're good enough to do it that way, but why?

[blast]

I'd play it 6-4-1-4 (or 1-4-6-4) so the slide only changes direction once instead of sawing back-and-forth.

--Andy in OKC.

I'd agree.

But then, I think the opening triplet in the Rimsky-Korsakov should be played 1-4-6-6-5.

I've never seen even the most rabid advocate of alternates do that, but it would make sense.

Or, Rolling Thunder. Alternates make a huge difference in that piece, but every year the pros get on stage at the end of ATW and I've yet to see anyone do anything other than saw back and forth. Sure, they're good enough to do it that way, but why?

Why the lack of alternatives ? Not enough people teach them.... and teach them early enough... we have had several generations of this, so many pros are happy to remain limited. A dreadful shame.
On the other hand, extending valve use into mid register is usually not tonally successful and tends to make the trombone sound like a valve instrument.

Chris

[timothy42b]

.On the other hand, extending valve use into mid register is usually not tonally successful and tends to make the trombone sound like a valve instrument.

Chris

Yes. I think part of that is not having positions dialed in, but most of it is valve tubing more suited to low register. Clearly valve instruments are okay tonally throughout the range (thinking trumpet, horn, euphonium. Not so much tuba; to my ears that high range stuff on tuba is better done on any other instrument including synth.)

We had a long and vitriolic discussion of this some time ago. The suggestion was to make attachment tuning for a tenor a narrower bore. I'm not sure how many would make use of it. I play with some decent players that never touch their trigger except for 2cnd line B.

[blast]

It's not the bore, it's the position of the valve or valves on the trombone. Acoustically the wrong part of the instrument to site them.... so they don't offer the results of other valved brasses.... unlike the valve trombone where valves sit in the place normally taken by the slide.

Chris

[timothy42b]

Well, the position of the valve is where the bore gets larger, no?

In the middle range there is very little advantage to the F attachment. Notes are close to the same position anyway, so you don't get any technique assistance.

The G attachment on the other hand could give some real improvement in facility.

The nice thing about a G attachment is you don't have to relearn from F positions for those notes - because hardly anybody uses their F attachment anyway!

[Savio]

I have to admit I don't use both valves often in middle register, when I think about it maybe never. Does any of you developed a technique to make both sound good in that register? Maybe useful in some fast passages?

Leif

[BGuttman]

The arpeggio study we use as a common warmup: Bb-F-Bb-D-Bb-F-Bb, A-E-A-C#-A-E-A, etc. run it down into the single and double trigger combinations. The notes get harder to center and you begin to see the problems a French Horn player deals with in trying to get a clean sound out of his instrument. But I've gotten useful low A in T4, Ab in T5, and other notes in these positions. If I worked at it I probably could get a lot more.

[timothy42b]

I have to admit I don't use both valves often in middle register, when I think about it maybe never. Does any of you developed a technique to make both sound good in that register? Maybe useful in some fast passages?

Leif

Greenhoe made a double valve tenor for that purpose, I think. I don't have two valves, and the F isn't as useful for speed, other than the occasional Bb in 3rd. I sit next to some advanced players who never use their valve though. For them, learning G for speed wouldn't involve unlearning anything.

Bass trombone players get good sound out of 0, 1, and 2 valves in their register, but it's hard to still sound good on a valve as we go higher. That suggests to me that there might be something to the idea that a smaller bore in the attachment tubing might be practical if we wanted to use a G valve for speed in the middle and upper range. Those discussions got heated pretty fast though.

I do occasionally use the trigger for high C if I'm doing an octave lip slur. I've never recorded that to see how bad the tone gets. I haven't posted a video in a long time, maybe I'll try it.

[JohnL]

The suggestion was to make attachment tubing for a tenor a narrower bore.

That's the way the McCracken-designed King trombones (4BF, late 5B, and Duo-Gravis) are - the attachment tubing is the same bore as the slide. Same people liked the result, some didn't.

Or, Rolling Thunder. Alternates make a huge difference in that piece, but every year the pros get on stage at the end of ATW and I've yet to see anyone do anything other than saw back and forth. Sure, they're good enough to do it that way, but why?

Some of that may be showmanship. ..

[Kbiggs]

Personally, I don’t use both valves above low D 8ve basso in performance. I occasionally will play with both valves within the staff when I’m in the practice room. I very often use one valve, either the Gb or F valve, in the middle register, especially for alternate positions (low Bb-A-Ab-etc. like Bruce said), and especially for arpeggios (again like Bruce said). I have used the F-valve in performance when playing fast scales above the staff where the exact notes were less important than the effect.

I found that trying to match timbre from the Bb to F to G/Gb to D/Eb horn(s) quickly approaches diminishing returns in the middle register, and the higher you go the more difficult it becomes. Matching intonation and timbre is even more challenging. It can be fun to try to make them sound the same, as well as try to make them sound even more different.

Having said all that, I do believe it’s essential to learn the more common alternate positions: F in 6, E in 7, a in 6, d in 4, d-flat in 5, high f in a sharp 4th etc., along with the common F and G/Gb-valve alternates within and below the staff. It makes passages like the one mentioned by the OP that much easier to play.

[afugate]

I'd play it 6-4-1-4 (or 1-4-6-4) so the slide only changes direction once instead of sawing back-and-forth.

--Andy in OKC.

I'd agree.

But then, I think the opening triplet in the Rimsky-Korsakov should be played 1-4-6-6-5.

I've never seen even the most rabid advocate of alternates do that, but it would make sense.

Why not play the B flat in T3? Then it's right there by the D in fourth.

I find that the outer position close partials are harder (for me) to cross cleanly. Although our daughter doesn't seem to have this problem, so perhaps that's just something I need to work on more.

--Andy in OKC

[marccromme]

We have also tried 6-4-6-4, but while the distance is shorter, for Asians with not so long arm, to hit 6th position well is also problematic and usually end up sharp.

... OK you should not have problems with the 6th position, even being a smaller member of the human community.

I am only 168 cm height with accordingly shorter arms than others, but 6th is fine within my range. 7th can be problematic in fast passages, but usually quite manageable.

The difference in how easy you get to 6h position is not so much your arm length, but maybe a combination of
posture and how you use your arm.

Especially how good you are at using your shoulder bones/links to extend your arm.

I do not stand or sit square with both my sholders at a 90 degree angle to my slide, but sit or stand with the over body slightly turned to left in relation to the slide direction. Or my slide pointing slightly to the right of my body center line. This way my right shoulder comes more forward, giving me some 4 to 5 cm more arm length.

In addition, I use the flexing / stretching of my wrist to get further out for 7th.

Try to make the moves 1-4-6-4-1-4-6-4-1 very slow and as relaxed as you can, then improve speed slowly.

And a great book to study is David Vinig: "What every trombonist needs to know about the body".

[sirisobhakya]

Thank you all for the recommendations! It turns out that some practice until the blow becomes more familiar to me helps center the note quite well. I also tried Gb2-4-Gb2-4 and also 1-4-6-4. The latter seems to be easier.

[GBP]

I really like the Paul Faulis approach where he matches the common position sound to all the different valve alternates. I have taken the approach to all notes and alternates in all registers. It gives me the confidence to think out of the box in terms of slide technique.

[Pre59]

I'm really pleased to see the subject of "alternative" positions being given some attention on this topic, are Trombonists "coming out" on this seldom discussed topic at last?

Only a tiny minority of players will make it to that orchestral job, and so for the rest of us being resourceful and useful is going to be a major advantage in playing everything else that's left. If a tutor insists that you use the standard positions for his teaching, so be it, but it doesn't stop you from using them elsewhere.

Also, the stave note position chart doesn't do the student any favours in showing him the internal layout. A xy grid is more useful in this regard and should be included in beginners material early on.

[VJOFan]

Last year I rediscovered the Blume 36 Studies. An oldie but a goodie that really gets a player around some alternate positions and a lot of keys.

If you are just starting to get into using alternates you could do worse than looking at these studies as a tutor for getting going on it.

[sirisobhakya]

Update: Now I use 1-4-Gb2-4, which seems to offer the best balance of intonation on the first long F, and the agility on the sixteenth notes. The 50B3L the girl is playing, though, have a flawed Gb paddle and she cannot use that alternate positions. She is currently pressing on with 1-4-1-4, but if I can find some ways to fix that, that should be great. I shall create another thread in Modification section soon.

[Burgerbob]

1-4-1-4 is probably the best option, IMO.

[Tooloud]

Why not play the B flat in T3? Then it's right there by the D in fourth.

Because it is in fact in a sharp 4th position. So you have zero advantage, when you use the valve for that note.

I'm very astonished reading this thread: There are really no "normal" nor "alternate" positions. If you once learn the overtone series and basically understand, what the fuction of the slide ist, you will play every note in the most convenient place or the place, where it sounds best.

We are not trumpet players, who know only their "fingerings" without any clue of the real tone they have to play.

(Admit: Every now and then a iuvenile horn player comes up with a request for a "fingering chart"....
My reaction: !)

[afugate]

Why not play the B flat in T3? Then it's right there by the D in fourth.

Because it is in fact in a sharp 4th position. So you have zero advantage, when you use the valve for that note.

That's precisely the point? You don't have to move from first position to fourth. (Or am I missing something? )

--Andy in OKC

[Tooloud]

When you have to play B after D oderD after B, it's useful.
For diatonic or chromatic run it's mostly useless. For then you have to stop the slide und go into the opposite direction. Usually it's better to keep the direction of the slide-movement, because ist's faster and more fluid.

[sirisobhakya]

I'm very astonished reading this thread: There are really no "normal" nor "alternate" positions. If you once learn the overtone series and basically understand, what the fuction of the slide ist, you will play every note in the most convenient place or the place, where it sounds best.

From my experience, except for the valve register (low F and lower, and probably middle C and B because of the improved intonation), any note almost always sounds better on open horn, regardless of valve type. So, yes, I would call any position that is used in combination with the valve(s) in the middle or higher register as an “alternate position”.

[Tooloud]

In this respect you are absolutely right.

The use of valves as "alternate positions" was not in mind. I thought only of using the slide!

[afugate]

When you have to play B after D oderD after B, it's useful.
For diatonic or chromatic run it's mostly useless. For then you have to stop the slide und go into the opposite direction. Usually it's better to keep the direction of the slide-movement, because ist's faster and more fluid.

Not to belabor the point, but that's precisely the context in which I suggested using B Flat T3. In the Rimsky Korsakov, the triplet figure is B Flat, D, F.

--Andy in OKC

[Tooloud]

But: why don't you just play the overtones?
b flat is sharp 5th, d above is flat 4th, f above is sharp 4th. So you only have minimal movement in the slide and don't have to press a valve, what alters the embouchure or tone.

I prefer doing things as simply as possible...

[StefanHaller]

b flat is sharp 5th, d above is flat 4th, f above is sharp 4th.

Do you actually know the Rimsky Korsakov? It's an octave lower.

I was sometimes wondering whether it makes sense to play Bb in 1st, D in 4th, F in 6th, A in 6th, Bb in 5th, to avoid the sawing back and forth. Does anybody think this is a good idea?

[timothy42b]

b flat is sharp 5th, d above is flat 4th, f above is sharp 4th.

Do you actually know the Rimsky Korsakov? It's an octave lower.

I was sometimes wondering whether it makes sense to play Bb in 1st, D in 4th, F in 6th, A in 6th, Bb in 5th, to avoid the sawing back and forth. Does anybody think this is a good idea?

Yes. I've suggested this several times. I've never seen it done. My own attempts have pointed out my need to work on that pattern much more to get it in tune and with good response. I think it's a really good test of your long positions.

[Tooloud]

b flat is sharp 5th, d above is flat 4th, f above is sharp 4th.

Do you actually know the Rimsky Korsakov? It's an octave lower.

No, please help me: What is "The" Rimsky-Korsakow? I did not find it mentioned above.
An octave lower what I wrote is wrong, of course. But there I don't see the problem either: B flat open 1st, D both valves in 1st, F open 1st? Maybe 'm blind or just stupid?

[timothy42b]

The Concerto for Trombone and Military Band by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov was written in 1877.[1] The concerto consists of three movements: an Allegro Vivace first movement, an Andante Cantabile second movement, and an Allegro-Allegretto third movement in the style of a march. The second and third movements conclude with cadenzas. A full performance of the piece lasts roughly ten minutes.

This concerto was composed for a fellow marine officer Leonov and premiered at a garrison concert at Kronstadt on 16 March 1878. The American premiere took place in June, 1952 at The Mall in Central Park, New York City with Davis Shuman, trombone and the Goldman Band.

In his recording Christian Lindberg famously alters the cadenzas to include technical stunts such as multiphonics. Many performers have taken this recording as a cue to create their own interpretations of the cadenzas.

This concerto has been recorded by many trombone soloists such as Joseph Alessi, Brett Baker, Michel Becquet, Carl Lenthe, Jacques Mauger, Branimir Slokar, Leandro Uviz D'Agostino (ARG), Carsten Svanberg, Alain Trudel, and Douglas Yeo.[2]

Arrangements also exist for UK Brass Band and piano reduction accompaniments. The original score is considered to be out of copyright in the EU and Canada but not the USA