Bass trombone mouthpiece in 1.5-2 range?

[SirJohn]

At long last, we got a bass trombone for my son. Found a deal to good to pass up on a Yamaha 613g in mint condition.Looking for additional mouthpiece options in the 1.5-2.0 range. The horn came with a Yamaha 58 and Schilke 59. He likes the Yamaha 58 a lot, but it is a mouthpiece that plays brighter with a horn that tends to be brighter already. He was able to play his pedal range without too much trouble and the high register was easy.

He hated the Schilke 59. Made too big of a mess with the upper and middle range with only slight improvement in the bottom. Also did not like the feel of the Schilke rim. he has to yet to find a Schilke mouthpiece he has liked. he's tried a 51 and 57 in the past and now has tried the 59. Besides the rim general feel, the Schilke 59 just felt too big, but then it is 28.5mm. Up to now he was using the school's Bach 1.5GM, which is only 27mm. As he is a tenor doubler, I could see that could be too drastic of a change for him.

The school's 1.5GM needs to stay with the school's bass as the other kid who has been playing bass also prefers that mouthpiece over what else they had (Schilke 57 and 3G and something that my son can't remember what it was).
My son has not yet had a chance to try the 1.5GM on the 613G, but he has always found it relatively comfortable and liked it in the low range. The school's horn is a massive old 50BLG dependent.

The goal here is to find something in the 1.5-2.0 range that is a bit deeper and heavier than the Yamaha 58 to aid in darkening the tone of the 613G. The 58 is great for big band which is where he does a majority of his bass playing, but would want another option for other settings. The rim also needs to be more like that of the Bach and Yamaha and not like the Schilke. I know of the Stork 1.5 heavy blank which would seem to fit the bill, but would need to know what the rim is like. Other options? This is something that needs to be affordable and perhaps something that we could trade the Schilke 59 for. He's hoping to get to play the 1.5GM on the bass tomorrow to see how it matches up. Perhaps just getting him his own 1.5GM will be the answer.

[Rusty]

The Rath B2 is a 2g sized mouthpiece with a great low register and comfy rim. In my opinion it plays very dark, but my bass is quite dark to start with (Yamaha 822g), but I’d say the B2 is darker than a lot of the 1.5s I’ve played

[SirJohn]

That may be a possibility depending on price. Anyone with any experience with the Wick 1AL heavytop? Also curious about the Conn version of the 1.5G vs the Bach. I assume they threw these in as the standard stock mouthpiece in new horns.

[Posaunus]

Although the cup inner diameters are similar (about 27.0 mm for each, in spite of the Yamaha published spec), the Bach 1½GM has a huge throat (8.10mm diameter) relative to the Yamaha 58L (7.25mm diam), which (to me) requires a lot of extra air. Your son might want to consider a Denis Wick 2AL, which is (to me) less bright than the Yamaha, or (if he can find one) a Giardinelli 1G, which I think would work well as a "classical" mouthpiece for the Yamaha 613G bass trombone. There are also some nice bass trombone mouthpiece options available (in stainless steel) from Giddings (formerly Giddings & Webster).

[mrdeacon]

Question #1 and #2 is how much do you want to spend and are you willing to pick something up used?

Your son just needs to find a mouthpiece that plays well all around. Something that can do everything. The player can darken or brighten the sound themselves if they equipment they are comfortable on.

Sounds like your son liked the stock Bach 1/2GM. I would consider a Bach 1 1/2G or 1 1/2GM to be your top pieces than. Faxx makes a fantastic copy of a Bach 1 1/2G at a fraction of the price of a real Bach 1 1/2G I highly recommend checking them out. Nothing wrong with playing a stock Bach or Faxx!!!

I highly recommend staying away from "heavy" mouthpieces (from any manufacturer). It's marketing mumbo jumbo.

Also in general, not many people play on 1 1/2 sized Wicks or Schilkes for a reason... there are just flat out better designs out there these days.

I'd also recommend sticking with something in the 1 1/2G size and stay away form the 2G. The modern made Bach 2Gs are pretty small.

If you're looking to spend lots of cash check out... Greg Black 1 1/2G, Rath 1 1/2B, Griego 2, Hammond 19BXL (the standard 19BL isn't great), Ferguson V or contact Doug Elliott. Personally favorite of the bunch is Doug's stuff.

Honestly, at the end of the day I would just recommend getting a stock Bach 1 1/2G or a Faxx 1 1/2G. This is coming from someone who has played everything under the sun big and small... and I've come full circle back to a Mount Vernon Bach 2G.

[SirJohn]

yes, used. Definitely want this to be low cost. If we could trade out the Schilke 59 for something else it would be ideal and if we had to go new that is about the price range we would limit to. Thinking about putting a WTT posting out on classifieds but wanted to at least have an idea of what to ask for. I know from searching the TTF archives some people had some success matching the stork 1.5 to a 613G but was curious on the rim feel beyond just size in comparison to the Bach or Yamaha. We'll see how it goes with the 1.5GM tomorrow on it. He should be able to compare the 58 and the 1.5gm back to back.

[Bach5G]

You’re welcome to a Getzen 1 1/2G if you’re interested. Free.

[mrdeacon]

Some Getzen 1 1/2Gs aren't half bad... I have one that nearly outplays my early Bach Corp. 1 1/2G and my Mount Vernon 2G haha. I was floored when I spent some time are Burgerbobs swapping mouthpieces and my Getzen 1 1/2G was one of the best mouthpieces in the room.

I'm personally not a fan of the Stork pieces... All the bass Stork pieces I've ever tried play larger than their name would suggest. The Stork 1 at least "says" it's similar to a Bach 1G but it's actually closer in feel to a Laskey 95D/Schilke Charley Vernon type piece. That said, your millage may vary.

[SirJohn]

You’re welcome to a Getzen 1 1/2G if you’re interested. Free.

That would be awesome. Thanks.
So I think the list so far is the Wick 2AL and the Getzen 1.5. Has anyone tried a Shires 2G?
Oh and Rath B2 provided i can get a used one cheap enough.

[mrdeacon]

I haven't played a Shires 2G or 1 1/2G but I've heard nothing but good things about their tenor pieces and larger bass pieces. I should have added Shires to my initial list!

[harrisonreed]

How old is your son? I can't think of a time when I wasn't the one testing and buying my own mouthpiece.

The one that came in the case; then I had work in high school and bought a few mouthpieces. I've been playing for 20 years and have obtained maybe 11 mouthpieces ever, and now have 5 total, for three trombone types (.547, 3BF, and alto). This is definitely a journey that the trombonist must do themselves, I believe.

I'm actually close to reducing the number of mouthpieces I own to just 4 -- a large shank 1C and 1A, and a small shank 1A and DE105/C+. Mouthpieces are mostly a load of trouble waiting to happen!

[SirJohn]

He just turned 16. He doesn't have the money to buy himself and message boards are uncool these days I guess. i just get a few items and have him try and compare them and I try to encourage him to do try different things whenever we get somewhere that allows it. Not much locally to try out surprisingly. Prowinds was the place years ago but they have been out of business for well over a decade. I let him make his own conclusions and then he can see what his instructor says once he gets a lesson. Entirely possible that he will just stick to the Yamaha 58 and nothing else. Hope to get him to ITF this year since it will be nearby.

He has seriously expressed interest in music so I want to make sure to support him however I can without giving any pressure. Doing things like this is getting him skills to think through things as he gets older. We talk about what is different about the characteristics of a mouthpiece and what he feels when he plays it. I have a doctorate in music myself, but not in the brass area. He actually does too much right now so my wife and I try to tell him to think if he would be better off to drop something. Through school he plays in concert band, jazz band, pep band, marching band, and him and a few of his classmates have formed a jazz combo. Pep band is evidently optional for everyone else except my son, as the director let him have it when he tried to not do one of the games in favor of an orchestra rehearsal. Outside of school, he has taken it upon himself to join four different performing organizations covering big band, orchestra, and concert band, partly because outside of combo, he doesn't find the material he does in high school challenging enough. He also does occasional gigs for other groups. He plays bass regularly for the big band and has split time on both bass and tenor for the orchestra depending on personnel needs and he will be asked to do bass for other things from time to time, including pinch hitting for the lower band at school. It makes it impossible for him to get a job and I haven't managed to get him to drop anything, yet. Getting a bass is good as he no longer has to borrow the school's, which is shared with another student, for all his outside gigs.

When he is not playing, he is working on arranging pieces for various groups completely on his own. I was a bit shocked when he told me he had well over 100 pieces he had in various stages of arrangements being started. He's probably finished about 30 of them. It's something he just started himself without me and my wife even being aware. He just likes doing it.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah that all makes sense. That's about the age I started getting into equipment. But also, at that age, any of the mouthpieces you listed would be just fine. I'd even say a 2G makes the most sense.

[Posaunus]

Shires 2G is a fine mouthpiece.

But why not take Bach5G up on his generous offer of a free Getzen 1½G? Should be a good mouthpiece, as already noted, and Bach5G is one of the most honorable TromboneChat members. Your son seems like a busy overachiever - let him stick with the 1½G and the Yamaha 58L for at least the school year so he really understands their strengths and weaknesses. He'll probably find he can make either of these mouthpieces work well, but if he's still not quite satisfied, he can spend next summer experimenting with yet another piece.

[SirJohn]

Shires 2G is a fine mouthpiece.

But why not take Bach5G up on his generous offer of a free Getzen 1½G? Should be a good mouthpiece, as already noted, and Bach5G is one of the most honorable TromboneChat members. Your son seems like a busy overachiever - let him stick with the 1½G and the Yamaha 58L for at least the school year so he really understands their strengths and weaknesses. He'll probably find he can make either of these mouthpieces work well, but if he's still not quite satisfied, he can spend next summer experimenting with yet another piece.

Already pm'd 5G. I can't thank him enough for his generosity. Just wanted to get one more option to try at some point.

[JohntheTheologian]

I just purchased a nice used Yamaha 322R bass bone and I received a Yamaha 58, Bach 1 1/2G and a Marcinckiewicz 3. The Marc might be just what you are looking for. It's rim size is about the same as the Yammie 58 and from what I can figure out, a Bach 2. However, the cup is deeper and the throat and backbore are more open than the Yammie 58. It really plays well.

I've used Marcs on my other horns and I like their rims. Not as many of them around as some brands, but a very good mp for someone new to bass bone as I am and your son seems to be.

[SirJohn]

Thanks for the heads up on the Marc. I'll have to keep an eye out to see if a used one pops up sometime. One more I am curious about is the Yamaha 59. Yamaha says it is closest to a 1.5G, but then they say the rim is thin. Can anyone comment on that? Is it actually a thinner rim than a 1.5G or is it just thin relative to smaller mouthpieces. We know the Schilke 59 is too thin of a rim for my son, but where does the Yamaha 59 fall?

[Bach5G]

You might not want to do anything precipitous wrt the Yam 59.

[Posaunus]

Take the (free) Getzen 1½G and have your son practice on it for a while. [It should be less "bright" than the Yamaha 58L - perhaps just what he needs.] Then, if he's still not satisfied after working with it for a few months, you can resume the hunt for the holy grail!

[If he dislikes the Schilke 59, he probably won't get along well with the Yamaha 59L!]

[SirJohn]

Thanks. I can cross that one off then.

[SirJohn]

Well, Bach5G surprised us with not just the Getzen 1.5G, but also a Yamaha 59. After a couple days of giving all the mouthpieces a shakedown, my son decided to go with the Yamaha 59 out of everything to work with for the time being.

A few observations. Yamaha is right to compare the 59 to the 1.5G it seems, as visually at least it is right in the same size area. The rim on the 59 is thinner than the Getzen 1.5G, but nowhere near as thin as the Schilke 59. For my son, the Yamaha 59 rim was still comfortable but he would likely not want to go any thinner. At the extreme of the high range the thinness bothered him slightly, but since bass seldom if ever plays there, it was not something that is much of an issue.

The Yamaha 58 and 59 seem to have identical external dimensions. The 59 it seems just bores the cup out an extra 0.4mm wider (based on published specs) which in turn reduces the rim thickness by 0.2mm. (For reference comparison the rim difference between a Wick 2AL and 2NAL is supposed to be about 0.6mm) The Yamaha 59 and 58 also seem to have the same cup depth. However, it appears they carry that additional 0.4mm cup diameter pretty far into the mouthpiece without much taper which results in the 59 having a slightly more pronounced bowl shape than the 58. This is of course supposition based on visuals and limited ability to measure as I do not have the ability to scan to prove it.

For my son, the Yamaha 59 allowed an easier time in the lower register than the 58 without losing anything in the middle and upper range. It also seemed to provide noticeably more power than either the 58 or Getzen 1.5G. My son particularly liked the added warmth to the sound at around the upper middle range that he got from the 59. He noted that he did need more air with the 59 vs the 58. He did not give me much feedback on the Getzen 1.5G other than to say he didn't care for it and it was not as easy to play as the Yamaha 58 and 59. It is entirely possible that it just was not a match with the Yamaha 613G and he would like it better on a different horn. We experienced that with a Conn 3 mouthpiece, which he loved on a King 3B but hated on a Yamaha 354.

After researching these mouthpieces quite a bit and now having them in person to really look over, I do have to say that it really bothers me with how many times I saw people mention the Yamaha 59 and Schilke 59 interchangeably (Not necessarily here but in various forums and also in some purported guides geared to high schoolers in band and taking lessons). It makes me think that people just assume they are about the same given that sometimes the two companies' numbers do line up and that they use the same general number scheme. I also question recommendations for the Schilke 59 for young players just starting on bass if they are coming from tenor. I realize there is more than one approach for this and I am far from a brass expert, but I was seeing the general recommendations being listed as 2G, 1.5G, Yamaha 58, 59, Schilke 58, 59 (one of these things is not like the others). Quite simply the Yamaha 59 and Schilke 59 are not in the same zip code, let alone the same ballpark. Seeing the Getzen 1.5G, the Yamaha 58, Yamaha 59, and the Schilke 59 side by side, it was like looking at a group of trombone mouthpieces next to a lone tuba mouthpiece. Perhaps we have an oddball Schilke, but the cup size and depth were in a whole other class whereas the other three looked all about the same. Perhaps the best way to describe the Schilke 59 is to say it is more of a 1G cup size with a smaller backbore and throat. Meanwhile, Yamaha is right to list the 1.5G as a rough equivalent to their 59. While they have some different characteristics, in terms of cup size and throat, they appear to be in the same category.

[Doug Elliott]

"not in the same zip code, let alone the same ballpark."

I like it!

[Bach5G]

I tend tend not very originally to regard bass trb mpcs as falling into three main groups: 1.5, 1.25 and Schilke 60 sizes.

The S59 falls in the 1.25 group. I recall reading through posts on the TTF, and it wasn’t particularly well regarded. I have a friend who sounds great on his and I gave it a go, but ultimately it wasn’t for me.

The bigger mpcs - 60-sized - were all way too big for me, although I quite liked the Laskey 93D. Big but it seemed to work pretty well. An all-around excellent design, I think.

The 1.5 group includes, of course. the Bach 1.5, as well as the Schilke 58, and the Yam 59. I was a little alarmed when John ruled out the Y59 (I’d already sent it and it wasn’t anything like a Schilke 59.). I thought it was a decent mpc and a fair number of TTFers liked it and said favourable things about it. For me though, if you’re going to play that size, just get a Bach and stop fussing.

Bach 2G, Schilke 57, Yam 58: too small. Just get a Bach 1 and 1/2G and stop fussing.

I’m glad your son likes the Yamaha 59. Merry Christmas.

[hyperbolica]

I haven't played all the bass sizes or makes, but I do have some favorites. The Ferguson V to me gives a clearer sound, and is a little bigger than the 1.5g. My favorite all around bass piece is the Bach 1.25g. If there are a lot of pedals, I pull out the Schilke 60L, but I don't like what it does to my sound above the staff.