Bach Mount Vernon Bass Trombone shank length

[mrdeacon]

I just picked up a Bach Mount Vernon 2G!

Holy cow! What a fantastic piece! I'm going to do a full write up on my experiences with downsizing from Schilke 60 sized pieces and my opinions on this particular mouthpiece when I spend some more time on it.

Does anyone know the average shank length on the Mount Vernon bass trombone pieces?

The particular Mount Vernon 2G I have seems to have a long shank... almost like an old Schilke. To the eye it looks longer than any of my Corp. 1 1/2Gs or 2Gs. The only marking on the mouthpiece is 2G, no R or any other marking beside the Bach Mount Vernon engraving is on the piece.

Are the shanks on Mount Vernons the longer old Schilke style or did I end up with an actual Remington piece?

Thanks!

[Savio]

I'm not sure, but think the shank on mine is not longer than the regular bach pieces. How much longer is it? Congratulations with a Mt. Vernon!
Leif

[islander]

Chris Stearn will confirm, as I am nowhere near the MV 1.5 he lent me, or the copies I made from it, but the shank is most definitely a little longer than Corporation 1.5s, and of a different taper - externally at least.

Bill

[mrdeacon]

Chris Stearn will confirm, as I am nowhere near the MV 1.5 he lent me, or the copies I made from it, but the shank is most definitely a little longer than Corporation 1.5s, and of a different taper - externally at least.

Bill

You're spot on! My shank is maybe 1/10? of an inch longer. Looked bigger when I first got the piece but when you stand them next to each other it's only a smidge longer.

External taper is also different on this piece!

[Doug Elliott]

The length difference was probably to keep the pitch the same.

[JoeStanko]

Bach made Conn tapered shanks, not necessarily stamped with a C on the shank. I have a "taller" Mt. Vernon 1 1/2G and the area below the outside rim is thicker than a modern Bach mouthpiece.

I consider the versions with the thicker rim area "older" and the versions that resemble current one "later" Mt. Vernon.

My Mt. Vernon 2G's are "later", and some of my Mt. Vernon 1/2G's are also "later". Photos next to another Bach mouthpiece would be helpful; there are also differences in the cup shape.

Joe Stanko

[blast]

Large shank NewYorks that I have (rare beasts) have the longer shank with a taper that is also a more shallow taper.... not as shallow as Brown and Sharpe though. Holton used the same taper on their bass mouthpieces and lead pipes right up to early 180s. The Mt Vernons I have owned have had both this older style shank and the later Morse shank, so I think we can talk about early (long shank) and late (short shank) Mt Vernons.

Chris

[blast]

The length difference was probably to keep the pitch the same.

Can you explain that please Doug ?

Chris

[mrdeacon]

Bach made Conn tapered shanks, not necessarily stamped with a C on the shank. I have a "taller" Mt. Vernon 1 1/2G and the area below the outside rim is thicker than a modern Bach mouthpiece.

I consider the versions with the thicker rim area "older" and the versions that resemble current one "later" Mt. Vernon.

My Mt. Vernon 2G's are "later", and some of my Mt. Vernon 1/2G's are also "later". Photos next to another Bach mouthpiece would be helpful; there are also differences in the cup shape.

Joe Stanko

I'll post photos next to a early Corp. 1 1/2G later tonight!

Sounds like mine is an early one. Mine also has the thicker outside rim like you described.

[Doug Elliott]

Given mouthpieces of a same length, the pitch of a shallower cup will be higher and a deeper cup will be lower. That can be compensated by making a shallower mouthpiece slightly longer and a deep mouthpiece slightly shorter. Some are like that and some aren't, but I think that would account for a 2G being made longer than a 1-1/2G.

[blast]

Given mouthpieces of a same length, the pitch of a shallower cup will be higher and a deeper cup will be lower. That can be compensated by making a shallower mouthpiece slightly longer and a deep mouthpiece slightly shorter. Some are like that and some aren't, but I think that would account for a 2G being made longer than a 1-1/2G.

Thanks for that Doug.... I've learnt something new.
In the case of the Bachs, I suspect it is just product evolution.... my New York 3 is very shallow and has the long shank, the 2G discussed here has the long shank as does one of my MV 1 1/2G pieces. I have a MV 3G that has the short shank and couple of MV 1 1/2Gs that also have the shorter shank, that continued on through to modern times.

Chris

[mrdeacon]

Finally got around to taking some pictures!

As noted this is versus an early 70s Corp. 1 1/2G.

Shank is noticeably longer on the 2G and the rim is noticeably wider on the outside. It's hard to tell in the pictures but the shank on the outside at least is also a slightly different taper.

Other interesting things... the mouthpiece is also very dense. Also might have a bit more metal on the blank. It weighs more than either the Corp. 1 1/2G or 70s Corp. 2G I have.

On the face, the rim feels very similar to Doug's 107 rim. In general, the rim shape feels very similar to Doug's. Not at all a cookie cutter rim like the Corp. 2G I have. I think due to the wider rim shape and slightly rouder rim it makes it feel larger on the face than the size would have you believe, it doesn't feel small by any means.

I'll continue to test out the mouthpiece more before I do my write up!

[mrdeacon]

Also with these Mount Vernons with the longer shank, is there supposed to be a slight wobble in regular morse taper leadpipes?

I'm using the piece in an MK GR pipe and it sits with a small wobble if I don't give it a slight twist. In comparison my Elliott LB and MB pieces and my newer Bach bass pieces sit with no wobble without having to do a twist.

[blast]

Also with these Mount Vernons with the longer shank, is there supposed to be a slight wobble in regular morse taper leadpipes?

I'm using the piece in an MK GR pipe and it sits with a small wobble if I don't give it a slight twist. In comparison my Elliott LB and MB pieces and my newer Bach bass pieces sit with no wobble without having to do a twist.

Yes it will wobble in a Morse pipe.... it will also stick out more. Don't twist it in as you will damage the pipe. The mouthpieces I am using are copies of my Mt Vernon and have this longer shank and different taper .... I use pipes with the correct taper for them.

Chris

[Doug Elliott]

Looks to me like a Conn taper shank, intended for an old Conn bass. It won't fit in a standard receiver and it also won't play right.

[blast]

Looks to me like a Conn taper shank, intended for an old Conn bass. It won't fit in a standard receiver and it also won't play right.

The odd thing Doug, is that these older Bachs are not quite the same taper as a Conn Remington.... they are almost like a compromise. I used to own a New York Bach 50B that had pipe with this 'almost' Conn taper. Well, back in the 1950s almost every company had different taper.... at least it keeps one modern mouthpiece maker busy making K shanks and C shanks and O shanks etc

Chris

[Doug Elliott]

So many old horns and mouthpieces play great in spite of sloppy and inconsistent machining. I think they were just very forgiving designs. Or maybe only the good ones survived and the others were modified into paperweights...

[mrdeacon]

Also with these Mount Vernons with the longer shank, is there supposed to be a slight wobble in regular morse taper leadpipes?

I'm using the piece in an MK GR pipe and it sits with a small wobble if I don't give it a slight twist. In comparison my Elliott LB and MB pieces and my newer Bach bass pieces sit with no wobble without having to do a twist.

Yes it will wobble in a Morse pipe.... it will also stick out more. Don't twist it in as you will damage the pipe. The mouthpieces I am using are copies of my Mt Vernon and have this longer shank and different taper .... I use pipes with the correct taper for them.

Chris

So what pipes do you have that fit the taper?

Should I be using a Remmington taper pipe instead? Did you have something specially made?

I've been looking for an excuse to pick up a brassark Burt Herrick 62H pipe for a while and I guess I could order one with the correct taper for this piece.

I'm also local to Bob Reeves and I could have a sleeve made to correct the taper but other than goldplating I'd rather not modify the mouthpiece if possible.

[JoeStanko]

I suggest checking not just the fit but also the insertion depth in a Remington tapered leadpipe..a Conn 70H would be a nice match.

My taller Mt. Vernon 1 1/2G looks like this 2G, and it is also very dense.

Joe

[blast]

Yes it will wobble in a Morse pipe.... it will also stick out more. Don't twist it in as you will damage the pipe. The mouthpieces I am using are copies of my Mt Vernon and have this longer shank and different taper .... I use pipes with the correct taper for them.

Chris

So what pipes do you have that fit the taper?

Should I be using a Remmington taper pipe instead? Did you have something specially made?

I've been looking for an excuse to pick up a brassark Burt Herrick 62H pipe for a while and I guess I could order one with the correct taper for this piece.

I'm also local to Bob Reeves and I could have a sleeve made to correct the taper but other than goldplating I'd rather not modify the mouthpiece if possible.

I use old Conn pipes.... 70H pipes. The mouthpieces fit fine in my Holton 169s.as they are... just as well as I am not pulling the Holton pipes.

Chris

[JohnL]

So many old horns and mouthpieces play great in spite of sloppy and inconsistent machining. I think they were just very forgiving designs. Or maybe only the good ones survived and the others were modified into paperweights...

The pre-WWII ones were picked up in scrap drives and got recycled into marine fittings and hydraulic tubing.

[mrdeacon]

So what pipes do you have that fit the taper?

Should I be using a Remmington taper pipe instead? Did you have something specially made?

I've been looking for an excuse to pick up a brassark Burt Herrick 62H pipe for a while and I guess I could order one with the correct taper for this piece.

I'm also local to Bob Reeves and I could have a sleeve made to correct the taper but other than goldplating I'd rather not modify the mouthpiece if possible.

I use old Conn pipes.... 70H pipes. The mouthpieces fit fine in my Holton 169s.as they are... just as well as I am not pulling the Holton pipes.

Chris

I'll hit up Brad Close and see if he can fix me up with something.

[Savio]

I have a funny Bach 1 1/2g Corp. with screw rim. The shank say 62h and is just a few millimeters longer than a normal one. In my 60h it fits perfect. In the 70h it wobbles a little bit. Strange thing is the rim have a 1g stamp. But the size is like a normal 1 1/2g, the rim shape is more rounded. Its also dense but a little boring to play compared to the Mt Vernon.

Leif

[Kbiggs]

,,, and the area below the outside rim is thicker than a modern Bach mouthpiece.

I consider the versions with the thicker rim area "older" and the versions that resemble current one "later" Mt. Vernon....

Joe Stanko

I remember reading about these different Bach mouthpieces when Griego introduced his “New York” blank. He claims that the additional weight, compared to the Elkhart and Corp. mouthpieces, lends characteristics to the sound and response...

New York
The NY blank weighs slightly more than modern day Bach mouthpieces (Elkhart blanks). Its weight is distributed evenly around the bottom of the cup. This results in an even core of sound with overlapping overtones, creating a tone quality that is thicker than conventional mouthpieces. The NY also provides the midrange overtones that are often lost with other mouthpieces.

Do those claims ring true to those of you who have these earlier mouthpieces?

[Doug Elliott]

Especially the "overlapping overtones"

[Kbiggs]

Yeah, I thought that sounded odd, too.

[elmsandr]

Just checked my stash, all of my large shank MTV pieces are 3.25” nominal (not going to argue .020 or so). The couple of Elkhart pieces I have, including the new artisan 1 1/2G share that same length.

The CB mouthpiece is 3.625 if y’all are curious there.

Guess I don’t have any of the longer ones,
Andy

[mrdeacon]

I guess I have a question...

For anyone that owns both the "later" and the "early" versions of Mount Vernon pieces which do you prefer to play?

[blast]

I guess I have a question...

For anyone that owns both the "later" and the "early" versions of Mount Vernon pieces which do you prefer to play?

There are better and less good mouthpieces from each period.... it's random, at least in my experience.

Chris

[mrdeacon]

Good to know! I wasn't sure if there was a devout following for either one.

The one I got sure seems to be a good one