Old dog learned a new trick - proper lube for valves

[Kingfan]

I have always used whatever valve oil I could find on my 4B-F's rotary valve. The 20+ year old rubber rotor stops had dried to a hard surface and made a noticable "thunk" when the rotor stop hit them, so I took it to my local tech for replacement. He did that and aligned the marks, I tried it, and the noise was gone. He then started lubing. He used Hetman's light oil down the tube on the rotor interior, and a medium oil on the bearings. I can't believe how nice the rotor works now! I guess I was lazy, too cheap, or both to have two kinds of rotor oil in my gig bag since I bought the horn in 1973, but now I will. Even better, the tech did the work while I waited, we had a great chat while he was working in it, it only cost $10, and he showed me a 70s King 2B Silver Sonic he had on consignment for $1,500 when we were done.

[harrisonreed]

If you have ball linkage, you need a third type of oil too.

[ghmerrill]

I'm all for picking exactly the right oil for the particular bearing surface. I in fact use two kinds (though not three) on my trombone valves. But over 20 years of playing a rotary valve tuba and a rotary valve euphonium have failed to disclose to me any noticeable difference in using different viscosities of oil on the different parts, and I suspect that this is largely marketing hype. Most of that time I just used Alisyn on everything, and it was great. Now I use two grades of Yamaha synthetic. Maybe I haven't seen the difference because I have a very regular and relatively frequent schedule of oiling these things -- and perhaps that habit matters a lot more than the thickness/type of the oil you use.

And yes, I know there's a good argument for using a light oil on the spindles for rotary valves -- since it has to migrate down the tightly fitting shaft. And if you oil the valve correctly (i.e., by using the tuning slide to create a suction effect on the spindle oil as you're oiling) you can actually observe this to some degree. And yes, it would seem "better" to use a thicker oil on the rotor -- through the tuning slides -- itself, but rotors don't need any lubrication. That oil on the rotor itself is to retard corrosion and keep things flowing through the valve -- not to actually lubricate as on a piston. So a thicker oil may "last" a bit longer. But really ... if you do this routine regularly, I seriously doubt that it matters -- as long as the oil isn't too thick to get where it needs to.

But hey -- it almost never hurts to oil things more and better. Almost.

[Kingfan]

If you have ball linkage, you need a third type of oil too.

String.

[Bonearzt]

In my all-knowing, demi-god like opinion, you DEFINITELY need two different viscosities of oil on rotary valves!!

As mentioned above, a light/thin oil for inside the body (down the tubes) so to speak, and a heavier oil on the spindles. The spindles are where there is the most chance of metal to metal contact and needs a heavy oil there.
I do not agree with using a heavier oil inside the rotor as it will impede the action by being too thick.

My recommendations are:
Hetman #1 or 2 or Al Cass inside the rotor and
Hetman #12 to 14 or a similar heavier key oil on the spindles

It's what I use on my horn & also on my customer horns.


Eric

[ghmerrill]

But I thought your recommendation was also to oil your rotary valves EVERY day. Given that, how does viscosity of the oil possibly matter? Also, I have to say that the heavy oil on the spindles and light on the rotors just doesn't make any sense to me at all. I've never had any impeding of rotor action (on three different instruments now: tuba, euphonium, and trombone) by using heavier oil on the rotors. The clearance between the rotor and casing just doesn't invite that -- unless you use something 20 wt motor oil.

And isn't it better to use a lighter oil on the spindles on a more frequent basis (since it actually gets down the spindle easier), than heavier oil?

I just don't get the reasoning here? Is it based on any observations over time of using different viscosities and seeing different results. Basically, rotors just don't wear -- except on the spindles and bushings. I don't get it.

[Kingfan]

But I thought your recommendation was also to oil your rotary valves EVERY day. Given that, how does viscosity of the oil possibly matter? Also, I have to say that the heavy oil on the spindles and light on the rotors just doesn't make any sense to me at all. I've never had any impeding of rotor action (on three different instruments now: tuba, euphonium, and trombone) by using heavier oil on the rotors. The clearance between the rotor and casing just doesn't invite that -- unless you use something 20 wt motor oil.

And isn't it better to use a lighter oil on the spindles on a more frequent basis (since it actually gets down the spindle easier), than heavier oil?

I just don't get the reasoning here? Is it based on any observations over time of using different viscosities and seeing different results. Basically, rotors just don't wear -- except on the spindles and bushings. I don't get it.

As I understand it, the heavier oils keep the bearings/spindles from wear due to metal to metal contact, and as they wear (which they will eventually, just like parts on a car engine) a heavier oil will help fill in the ever-widening gap.

[Bonearzt]

Yes I recommend oiling every day because I KNOW it's not going to happen 90% of the time and this way the rotors stay oiled!
THEORETICALLY, rotors shouldn't wear since the bearings are supposedly the only contact point, but then why must people get their older Conn 8D valves rebuilt?

And yes there IS an affect of using a heavy oil inside the rotor, and I have observed it!
IF you are gauging oils by their description only, there are "rotor" oils and some "key" oils that are as thin as piston oil and they will not hinder rotor action.
And just because YOU haven't had adverse issues with your method of lubrication doesn't mean it applies to everyone or anyone else!!
Don't like or agree with my recommendations? Do't follow them!


Eric

[ghmerrill]

Well, I think we all have to generally go on our own experience; though I'm open to other possibilities.

I certainly can't speak to issues with older Conn 8D valves needing to be rebuilt, but I"m not tempted to generalize from that -- especially from a horn valve to a trombone valve. And most rotary valves need rebuilding because of bushing/spindle wear, don't they? I've got a 50+ year old rotary euph that has had exactly one bad valve, and that was purely a problem of some sort of damage to the upper bushing. Once brought back into specs, it works great. There is NO damage or wear to the rotors. And that horn was obviously never treated with a lot of kindness, was rode hard and put up wet. The linkages are a mess of sloppiness, wear, and clatter. It was heavily used (apparently in Bulgaria) for about 50 years. But the rotors are great. My observations aren't just theoretical. I've had those rotors of mine apart on that and my other instruments.

I don't gauge oils by their descriptions. I gauge them by their results, observed over time on my own instruments, now over a period of about 30 years involving four tubas, a couple of euphoniums, and a couple of trombones -- not a lot, and not close to what you see, but I do get absolutely consistent results.

What I REALLY believe is that your approach works fine and my approach works fine -- which inclines me to believe that wringing hands about what viscosity oil to used in spindle/valve/linkage cases is probably not something to devote much of our lives to. But yeah, I'll continue to go with my own experience since I still can't make common sense of the alternative.

[greenbean]

I agree:

Thinner oil in the rotor and thicker on the spindle and linkage points. Including saddles for the valve levers and water key. I lube once every one to two weeks on a horn that I am playing daily. All my valves work beautifully and are silent.

I am sure other methods work well, too...

[greenbean]

If you have ball linkage, you need a third type of oil too.

String.

Make sure you wax the string, Greg!

[Kingfan]

String.

Make sure you wax the string, Greg!

Wax beans???

[baileyman]

Aren't rotary valves designed so there is clearance around the rotor and bearings on the axle? This would suggest that the only place for lube is at the bearings and linkage. Viscosity is a question, though. What you want is for the axle to float on the oil in the bearing, and I would bet a feeling of free noiseless turning gets close enough.

[Bonearzt]

Aren't rotary valves designed so there is clearance around the rotor and bearings on the axle? This would suggest that the only place for lube is at the bearings and linkage. Viscosity is a question, though. What you want is for the axle to float on the oil in the bearing, and I would bet a feeling of free noiseless turning gets close enough.

Yes, there is a small clearance between the rotor & the casing, which is usually where you get a clank on valves that aren't oiled regularly, and a heavier oil will stay put longer and not get squeezed out when the rotor is used.
The thin oil inside the casing is mostly for corrosion deterrence since there normally isn't any contact between the rotor body and the casing.


Eric

[Mamaposaune]

This thread was a reminder to me to oil my valves - just finished doing it. I like Hetman's also, rotor oil down the tubes and bearing and linkage on the spindles and springs. I only oil them once every 3-4 weeks, but the Hetman's does not dry up in that time.
My private students will occasionally have a problem with a buzzing sound coming from the F-attachment, so far oil has always been the cure.

[Bonearzt]

This thread was a reminder to me to oil my valves - just finished doing it. I like Hetman's also, rotor oil down the tubes and bearing and linkage on the spindles and springs. I only oil them once every 3-4 weeks, but the Hetman's does not dry up in that time.
My private students will occasionally have a problem with a buzzing sound coming from the F-attachment, so far oil has always been the cure.

[whitbey]

I found a great way to lube valves. I am allergic to traditional valve oil so I found an alternative.
On the valve bearings I use slide-o-mix combined. Then on the mini ball and the spring pivot point I use either Vaseline or Trombontine. I over coat the joint with lube then warm the lube with a lighter allowing the lube to flow into the ball. Getting the lube to flow into the spring and the long screw pivot really makes a nice moving valve. Even on my old Bach bass with the old linkage it just works great.