Db bass trombone!

[peteedwards]

I stand by my prediction

[Jgittleson]

I stand by my prediction

Lol! Ill post a video with a tuner just for u

[Jgittleson]

Decided to knock out some bracing while i wait for the bell. Just have to make the last one.

[Jimprindle]

Can't say I am 100% with the concept, have to hear it, play it, etc. But I am 100% behind your ambition to experiment and try something new. All the pictures show you are an accomplished brass technician. I love watching the progress of your endeavor and I wish you success.

[Jgittleson]

Can't say I am 100% with the concept, have to hear it, play it, etc. But I am 100% behind your ambition to experiment and try something new. All the pictures show you are an accomplished brass technician. I love watching the progress of your endeavor and I wish you success.

Thank you! I completely agree, the proof is in playing it.

[Jgittleson]

Houston , we have a bell!

[peteedwards]

correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the larger side of your MTS goes right into the taper of the bell stem rather than a cylindrical tube- like this:

[Jgittleson]

correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the larger side of your MTS goes right into the taper of the bell stem rather than a cylindrical tube- like this:

That is correct. It is one nice, beautiful, continuous taper.

[peteedwards]

That is correct. It is one nice, beautiful, continuous taper.

A bit unconventional, and certainly not what would be called "continuous taper", but if it works, more power! I would suspect it may leak a bit (especially with a practice mute) since it only really seals at the entry point.
Have you considered TIS, & making it truly a continuous taper?

Looks good- I like the valve wrap especially.

[Jgittleson]

That is correct. It is one nice, beautiful, continuous taper.

A bit unconventional, and certainly not what would be called "continuous taper", but if it works, more power! I would suspect it may leak a bit (especially with a practice mute) since it only really seals at the entry point.
Have you considered TIS, & making it truly a continuous taper?

Looks good- I like the valve wrap especially.

Thanks! I played with about 20 different styles before i landed on that- it has the added benefit of only needing to be braced to itself. With those 3 braces it is very, very stiff, i can't see it needing more than that. I was kinda going for like an industrial conduit panel kinda thing with all the offsets there.

Ok I'll be more specific. From the tuning slide bow through the bell it is a continuous taper, even in the ferrule. Right now it cant be tuned (valves can) but yes i am putting tuning in the slide, working on parts. Oh. Wait!!!! No. Thats not whats going on. Theres no cylinder in the bell, i remove that, and have the bell going right into the ferrule.

[Jgittleson]

Heres the proof

[peteedwards]

Ok I'll be more specific. From the tuning slide bow through the bell it is a continuous taper, even in the ferrule. Right now it cant be tuned (valves can) but yes i am putting tuning in the slide, working on parts. Oh. Wait!!!! No. Thats not whats going on. Theres no cylinder in the bell, i remove that, and have the bell going right into the ferrule.

OK that makes sense now, I saw the tube in previous photos. TIS is the way to go then. You may also want to consider a tapered tube in the neck pipe, a good source for one might be a section of trumpet bell stem.

[Jgittleson]

Ok I'll be more specific. From the tuning slide bow through the bell it is a continuous taper, even in the ferrule. Right now it cant be tuned (valves can) but yes i am putting tuning in the slide, working on parts. Oh. Wait!!!! No. Thats not whats going on. Theres no cylinder in the bell, i remove that, and have the bell going right into the ferrule.

OK that makes sense now, I saw the tube in previous photos. TIS is the way to go then. You may also want to consider a tapered tube in the neck pipe, a good source for one might be a section of trumpet bell stem.

Thats a really good idea! Right now theres just 3 steps between the id of the valve (.593) and the tubing there, where i had to use 3 tubes soldered together to get it to all fit nicely. I can only see your suggestion improving the horn.

[elmsandr]

The neckpipe from a single valve or dependent valve bass might also do the trick. When building horns, I hate to have to do any double wall tubing as it makes for discontinuities in the taper.*

The lack of tuning of the open horn isn't a problem on a proof-of-concept horn, but for anything that I would play in public, I think you'll find you need one. This was one reason I was suggesting doing the valve as an ascending valve. It matters less that the valve tuning slides move than the main tuning slides. I rarely move my valve tuning sides from the set relation to the main, but the main moves all the time based on weather and humidity.

Cheers,
Andy

*side note: I am not certain there is any data to suggest that discontinuities are inherently bad. I would posit that they could be rather good, if placed in the correct location, but that requires math and trial to validate.

[Jgittleson]

Yeah, i wasnt too worried about it, that part of the horn is sitting on your shoulder, and since that's where a tuning slide usually is, it's typically double walled anyhow. And yes, once i have the parts the slide is getting cut another .5" for room to tune, and TIS hardware added.

[peteedwards]

*side note: I am not certain there is any data to suggest that discontinuities are inherently bad. I would posit that they could be rather good, if placed in the correct location, but that requires math and trial to validate.

I agree this can be a useful technique for taming certain notes or partials, particularly for our valved cousins that don't have handslides with the ability to easily adjust every pitch. there are always compromises in this approach and it is very tricky. With trombones I've always had more luck & better results by removing discontinuities.

[Jgittleson]

So i went into Manhattan yesterday for the horns to get some testing, met up with a talented Juilliard senior at Carnegie hall. He really liked the horn, most of his criticism revolved around his personal preferences as a player, such as preferring a brass slide rather than nickel, a longer sterling leadpipe, stuff like that.

To me, that is ultra positive, because if the player is going right to "tweaks" like that, it implies the horn is very close to the sound he expects from a horn. I should mention, he is a strong orchestral player, and looks for a very particular sound. He felt as is, the horn would work very well in a big band setting, since its generating that wall of sound you want for that style of playing.

We both agreed once getting below pedal F, there starts to be a difference between the horns, and getting into the upper ledger lines, again there is a difference. This isnt really surprising, as it is a slightly higher instrument. I think the best comments of the day was after about 90 mins of comparision he says, " I'm starting to think i shouldn't be comparing this to the Bb bass, but rather just playing it and looking at it as its own category, separate from each other. This way, i can just focus on what i like about it as its own type of horn, rather than using my horn as a baseline for what a bass tromboe should sound like." I liked this because i decided this myself as well. At a certain point, it doesnt make sense to keep trying to make it like a Bb horn. But just look at it as its own veast, and just figure out what yous prefer to olay on it over a Bb horm.

We also agreed, having passed the solo test, playing it in a section is the next logical step. I will be going back in about a month, when everyone is back for the semester, to do just that. It this points i intend to get some recordings of it. Also, i decided next time i will start off playing it with others in a quintet setting, then playing as a section, because a lot of time was lost learning positions. This also made comparision more difficult, since when the player isnt confident in playing the instrument, they clearly play it differently.

Im pretty sure i can hold my own with them to get some good recordings, and as i am very comfortable on the horn (ive stoped playing Bb bass alltogether) it will provide a better example for recording purposes. After that, i will hand the horn over and let them have at it.

Overall, I'd call this a success. It was well recieved, did what it was supposed to, and left a good impression. Can't ask for more than that from a prototype. For the hell of it i brought the Double valve even though its not done. I did a little different voodoo on that bell, and it did play a little differently, he liked it a lot more than the single value for his playing preferences.

[Jgittleson]

Oh and Pete, 2.5" and 3/4"

[imsevimse]

Houston , we have a bell!

It looks very nice

/Tom

[BGuttman]

This is where the "rubber meets the road". Like Jim Prindle, I'm on the fence as to whether it's an improvement or not, but I also am very interested in how your testing goes. It could be a great development. Or another dead end in the tree of improvements like Davis Shuman's bent slide.

I'm not sure if the C approach or the Db approach is better. I know you went to Db for size considerations related to air travel.

Good luck with this phase. Have you gotten some triggers for the double valve?

[peteedwards]

a lot of time was lost learning positions. This also made comparision more difficult, since when the player isnt confident in playing the instrument, they clearly play it differently.

This was my only caveat all along. An unfamiliar key & positions makes it difficult to judge a horn out of the box, especially how its going to play with others. This may be the best horn you've ever played, but if your plans are to market this design you may have an uphill battle because no one can pick this up & sight read on it.
Personal preferences of players will also come in to play particularly if you have only one source for the non-standard bell.
Take this not as criticism but advice from an experienced market researcher (in a completely unrelated field)

I was kinda close on my prediction, where's my video?

Congratulations & best wishes on continued success!

[Jgittleson]

This is where the "rubber meets the road". Like Jim Prindle, I'm on the fence as to whether it's an improvement or not, but I also am very interested in how your testing goes. It could be a great development. Or another dead end in the tree of improvements like Davis Shuman's bent slide.

I'm not sure if the C approach or the Db approach is better. I know you went to Db for size considerations related to air travel.

Good luck with this phase. Have you gotten some triggers for the double valve?

Well thats the beauty of what i made. The magic is in the bell. It can be used with different slixe lengths to be C, Db, D or Eb without an issue. I happen to like it in Db, as it happens to be really in tune, the slightly shorter slide gives people like me that have shorter arms command of the full slide, and it also meets my size requirement. No linkage yet. I make it from scratch out of straight rod and a torch. I will probably futz with it tomorrow.

[Jgittleson]

a lot of time was lost learning positions. This also made comparision more difficult, since when the player isnt confident in playing the instrument, they clearly play it differently.

This was my only caveat all along. An unfamiliar key & positions makes it difficult to judge a horn out of the box, especially how its going to play with others. This may be the best horn you've ever played, but if your plans are to market this design you may have an uphill battle because no one can pick this up & sight read on it.
Personal preferences of players will also come in to play particularly if you have only one source for the non-standard bell.
Take this not as criticism but advice from an experienced market researcher (in a completely unrelated field)

I was kinda close on my prediction, where's my video?

Congratulations & best wishes on continued success!

Ahhh, but once i am making the bells, bends, etc, problem solved!!! Sure. Impressions can be a little tougher, but no one who has tried it thus far particularly cared. Rather, they thought writing a book to go with it to learn the horn would be useful. Yes you were, im wondering where the spy camera is! Hahahaha let me finish this bell and i will make one.

[peteedwards]

im wondering where the spy camera is! Hahahaha let me finish this bell and i will make one.

As you said:

Well that'll have to be my little secret,

[Jgittleson]

im wondering where the spy camera is! Hahahaha let me finish this bell and i will make one.

As you said:

Well that'll have to be my little secret,

Lol!

[Jgittleson]

My buddy cncd me out of a jam with the valves

[Jgittleson]

Been playing the horn a little, havent had the time to do the linkage, but may get it going today. I added one more brace under the valves, made a huge difference when playing with the tuning slides. Oh and i actually took a tape to them. Ab slide gets pulled 2.25" and the Gb 5/8". In the future i may make a different slide for the Ab with some funky loop or something, i dont like having to pull it that far.
So yeah, linkage, a lot of finish work, and thats it. I'm really looking for more and more people to try the horns out, the feedback has been very helpful. Im finding that strictly orchestral players have more difficulty believing in its ability to blend with a group, all around players don't seem to have mich concern, and big band guys are like , 'why would i want to blend? I want to blow away the rest of the band, this seems like it'll do it fine '. Keep in mind even though i used to play everything and anything, my opinion is on the big band persuasion

In case anyone is interested, i will be moving forward with producing these. The double valve seems to be the flavor of the month, so it's likely i will produce it first. There is some patent work i need to finish before i will let any leave my shop, but as I'm looking for 10 preorders before i start the run, and it will take some weeks to get all my tooling in order, i will likely have it all squared away well in advance of the first production model being completed. 3 of the first 10 are spoken for, all of them have tried the horn in advance of reserving one, which i may make a requirement so the buyer knows exactly what they are purchasing.

[Jgittleson]

Been slow, just waiting on 2 more parts. I hope to get back to the linkage this weekend the latest. In the mean time, im trying my hand at repairing the 50b corporation bell that fell into my lap.

[Molefsky]

So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?

[Jgittleson]

So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before. I think the name is far less important than the sound, and the experience people have trying it. The single valve has been getting a lot of trial locally, even by one or two skeptics. To their dismay, it played remarkably well for them. I've started working on a site to keep all the info and media of these horns on, figure itd be nice to have it all in once place.

I also started work on a different kind of valve, which once im through the prototyping stages will be something i can offer with this horn. I don't think its ever been done before, but from an engineering standpoint make a ton of sense. But thats all for another day

[mousedigits]

This is a really cool project, can't wait to see how it develops! I wonder how feasible it would be to squeeze a second valve in there.

[Jgittleson]

This is a really cool project, can't wait to see how it develops! I wonder how feasible it would be to squeeze a second valve in there.

You mean independent? I can do it, but the tuning will be difficult.

[BrassedOn]

Maybe our obsession with big, fat, dark and loud sound and thus with increasingly huge and heavy equipment (with also means increasingly bad ergonomics) is the real problem here, in which case, isn't this bass in Db also just a compromise?

I’m with the builder here. And I think the process is exactly the kind of process that is followed to reach an innovation. And who cares if others did not see the same problem as a problem to be solved. And who cares if he discovers the 2001st way not to make a light bulb. Tho my guess is he’s on track to his goal for an agile travel bass bone.

And look how tubists went nuts over the recent flood of travel tuba, which is knowingly made as a hard to play not-a-tuba that is not actually viable for 99.9% of actual performance conditions. And his Db horn is playable and responsive. Today’s scoffers will be placing preorders.

And how did we end up with our current configurations? Evolution, which can be messy and produce both the platypus and the 7’ NBA center. Both of whom are a solution to the demands of an environment and successful. And as LeTrombonist describes, evolution might leave us with Neanderthal trombones, too unwieldy or slow to sustain.

As far as the valve set up, yes it is totally possible to learn a new configuration and positions. I think we can be open to the open horn keyed in Db. Why not? The ascending valve idea Bb\Db especially if that is switchable to Db/Bb is a marketing point, and is a consideration for 2.0 maybe. I’m just caught up thinking about all the bass licks I have to play and how each is affected by the tuning, whether it’s some orchestral line or something Nelson Riddle wrote for George Roberts. But that’s not the point of the design.

Great inspiration. And inspires my own thought experiment for a King 3b with F trigger that’s not doing anything in my stable. Bb\Eb ascending? Fun.

[Matt K]

Agree w/ BrassedOn. OP is modifying my Wessex at the moment which I'm intending as a travel horn. I previously owned a Conn 36H that had the valve reversed. I purchased it because it was reversed but ultimately I actually wanted something pitched in Eb. The Bb side is realy nice though and with a second valve, it's fully chromatic and would basically let me do anything a tenor would in a really compact package. (The whole thing will fit in my Cronkhite alto gig bag).

[Finetales]

I’m with the builder here. And I think the process is exactly the kind of process that is followed to reach an innovation. And who cares if others did not see the same problem as a problem to be solved. And who cares if he discovers the 2001st way not to make a light bulb. Tho my guess is he’s on track to his goal for an agile travel bass bone.

I agree with all your points, and I love how different this is from anything else out there (the closest thing is that ascending C bass also on this forum, but that functions mostly as a normal bass). And I think just calling this instrument a travel bass bone is selling it short. It's a different instrument in a different key with its own sound, that also happens to be nicely sized for travel and able to play parts written for the "normal" bass trombone. It's only a travel bass in the same way that an alto is only a travel tenor.

[doctortrombone]

And how did we end up with our current configurations? Evolution

Not really. We ended up with our current configurations through intelligent design.

Perhaps early on it was a matter of Darwinesque random alterations and "mutation" of standard horns, with some designs meeting the demands of their environment and others not. However, at this point we know enough about the theory of how a trombone works that random mutations (as in nature) will seldom be viable.

OP is modifying my Wessex at the moment which I'm intending as a travel horn.

I'm interested in hearing an objective assessment of how your horn plays after it's cut down. Thus far, we've only heard from the person who is building (and selling) the horn.

[Matt K]

Well, mine won't be quite the same since it's not starting out as a tenor; it's one of the Wessex 525/547 altos. The bells are really tiny -- they're actually alto bells... I forgot to measure... seems like 7" flare! I was thinking it would be more tenor like given it's slide size but alas... I suppose some might consider it more tenor than say, a Bach 39.

My experience with the Conn 36H is that it also didn't sound like a tenor, even though it was always in Bb. I imagine this horn is also going to be more alto like to me if for no other reason than the bell size. I'm keeping my eyes out for a tenor bell that has a small throat though so that down the road, I might be able to cut it and mount it on this horn. One step at a time though!

Interesting sidenote though, this Db horn is only a half step higher than the YSL350C. If I've tried that horn, its been a long, long time. I'm wondering if I'd b able to detect the difference between a 350C and a 356C (which I also currently own) since they're probably quite. Then what of a 350C that's been cut a half step higher? I'm not convinced I'd notice a huge difference depending on where the tubing is cut. Especially if they were both nominally pitched in Eb.

But at any rate, I'm excited to get my hands on it in the not too distant future!

[Jgittleson]

Sure, ill chime in. I have been fairly quiet about these, but a lot is happening. I have several large demo sessions coming up, and lots of paperwork happening. Looking to have them for sale before the end of the year, and comprehensive set of media to listen to the horn will be available too. First one svheduled is September 9th.

I think everyone who is skeptical should reserve judgement til they try it. Im not going to say i built a better mousetrap, but ill let you say it after trying it out!

[BrassedOn]

just calling this instrument a travel bass bone is selling it short. .

Agreed, I should clarify that the travel aspect is part of "the designers intention". We don't know if the horn will inspire a movement and literature to exploit the qualities of the horn!

[Backbone]

So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before. I think the name is far less important than the sound, and the experience people have trying it. The single valve has been getting a lot of trial locally, even by one or two skeptics. To their dismay, it played remarkably well for them. I've started working on a site to keep all the info and media of these horns on, figure itd be nice to have it all in once place.

I also started work on a different kind of valve, which once im through the prototyping stages will be something i can offer with this horn. I don't think its ever been done before, but from an engineering standpoint make a ton of sense. But thats all for another day

Do you have plans for a case?

[Jgittleson]

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before. I think the name is far less important than the sound, and the experience people have trying it. The single valve has been getting a lot of trial locally, even by one or two skeptics. To their dismay, it played remarkably well for them. I've started working on a site to keep all the info and media of these horns on, figure itd be nice to have it all in once place.

I also started work on a different kind of valve, which once im through the prototyping stages will be something i can offer with this horn. I don't think its ever been done before, but from an engineering standpoint make a ton of sense. But thats all for another day

Do you have plans for a case?

Yes, pay a company to make them lol.

[hyperbolica]

So if the Bb bass trombone is called the tenorbass then I guess this is the altobass?

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before.

Yamaha calls several models tenor basses, but they are bigger than tenors in some way.

I like the idea, but Pete's idea is more practical. The only differences are a couple inches of tubing and a valve setting. I personally would put a 9" bell, a 547/562 TIS slide, which would make it lighter and more compact, plus usable as both tenor and bass and cover all bases, so to speak.

Anyway, cool project.

[Matt K]

I believe the tenorbass name came from the fact that tenors used to be in Bb and basses used to be in F, thus it is a tenorbass. But I could be wrong about why they chose that particular name.

[sirisobhakya]

In theory, sure, although I've never heard a bass called a tenorbass before.

Yamaha calls several models tenor basses, but they are bigger than tenors in some way.

Japan uses German nomenclature with many things, especially in engineering/science and music. Bassoon becomes Fagott, Eb is called Es, etc. So any trombone with F-attachment, even the small YSL-356R, becomes tenorbass trombone (テナーバストロンボーン) as in Tenorbassposaune.

[LeTromboniste]

I believe the tenorbass name came from the fact that tenors used to be in Bb and basses used to be in F, thus it is a tenorbass. But I could be wrong about why they chose that particular name.

Close. The term tenorbass actually predates the F valve on a Bb trombone. Early basses were in all sorts of pitches, most often D, or by the 19th century Eb or F (or sometimes G). But a larger Bb instrument (or a regular size Bb used with a larger mouthpiece) was often used to play bass parts, in some places that had become the standard, and it was then called either just bass (such as in the David concertino, technically for bass - although a straight Bb "bass" that would be considered a tenor today) or "tenorbass" to avoid confusion with the true basses pitched in lower keys.

[Jgittleson]

Does anyone remember when i was going to pitch this in Eb? Another slide is on the way, so i may give it a go. If it works, that means this bell can be used with various slide lengths, to achieve C,Db, D, and Eb. Theres no telling what its going to sound like but I'm going to give it a shot. I may stop at D first for kicks.

[Tetraphosphate]

Can't believe i only saw this thread just now -- but this is so awesome!

[BrassedOn]

I’m very impressed with the wrap of the stack. You’ve hit on an “elegant solution”, which tend to endure.

Earlier there were a couple posts on the idea of a book. That’s a very good idea. I like what alto bone Mike does with his site, books, forum for alto. It is positive in many ways: promoting the alto in general, education, the player and recordings, etc. it’s also marketing. But it does not come off as self serving. Inspires me to get some time on alto. His books include learning the alto and learning jazz, his speciality. I think a great avenue for your new bass animal. As a way to promote the horn as an idea and as a product, the builder and player, and whatever performance niche it creates.
https://www.altobone.com/

Regarding naming the beast, if you at all like “altobass”, you should copyright/register it as a brand name or category name.

I think we are witnessing something new, and nomenclature and branding will matter. And I really appreciate the creator (more than just a builder) letting us in on the creation and creative process.

That being said, what’s in a name? If you’d take a lesson from the tuba world, “It’s a mess!” (A la Marty Huggins). The bass and contrabass are in pretty good shape for names and have a particular meaning regarding key and core tessitura for the horn, even if the composer or arranger don’t know or specify, the tubists can figure out the best tool for the job. Good players can play high on contra or low on bass, but clearly there are pieces where one is right and another is wrong. Up an octave in the tenor horn and baritone horn we see the same, like male voices and some ties to the role the instrument has had. In civil war era music, tenorhorn often has that peck horn role, and American baritone has the euphonium lyrical job. And a lot a lot of confusion because of different traditions in different countries, baryton, fliocornobasso, American baritone, euphonium, British baritone. Then we have “euphonium” that breaks the rules. Lovely name and super use of Greek, but does not place the horn in the tuba family, as others have pointed out. “Euphonium” does tie to the lyrical qualities of the instrument. But a name like “tenor tuba” says where it belongs in the family. The name Euphoinium is kind of stuck, and some distinguish the band versus orchestral instruments, despite the fact that scant excerpts for tenor tuba have been played on euph while other scant excerpts distinctly belong historically to the C tenor tuba. (Literally even a careless lumberjack can count the orchestra works getting played in one hand). Orchestras have tubas and tenor tuba has its spot, regardless of whether a trombone player plays the part.

So what does that mean for the Db Bass Trombone. If called that, someone might expect the fundamental is DDb below the staff. “Altobass” sounds cool but may be ambiguous In terms of the tessitura and role. Is it a bass that plays high or an alto that plays low? Has this horn a hybrid range and role of tenor and bass, tenor bass? That seems to have been taken for over 100 years for a tenor with a valve or large bore tenor. And the role of this Db instrument is not yet known.

Branding and nomenclature matter. Is it a success like Kleenex or a failure like Oboe d’Amore, hautbois (which is an alto oboe of a kind) and English Horn (which is an angled horn not English) just tell me if it is bigger or smaller or rounder or taller or more expensive. Will the market place decide before the creator? If this was in the score for a big band or orchestra what would it rightly be called? What name is on the cover of the book and websites main page, what does the creator want the trombone world call it before “the Db thing” or “Bass Trombone d’Amore” takes hold by composers and all is lost?

[BGuttman]

In the tuba world we have Eb tubas and EEb tubas. They are the same length, but the EEb has a much larger bore. The EEb tuba sounds "bigger" than an Eb tuba.

I would consider a large bore trombone capable of playing all the notes of a bass trombone as a xxx[key] Bass Trombone.

[Jgittleson]

So I came up with something of a brilliant idea. It occured to me the greatest obstacle thus far in several demo sessions is no one knows how to play the horn. For the highly advanced players, it takes about 45 mins to be able to play etudes/excerpts they are familiar with for comparison. Even still, they lack the confidence in playing it, and this is audible, skewing their impression of the horn to a degree. Those that are anything less that advanced never make it there on their first try.

Being that i need to take the single valve horn apart for production purposes anyhow, i think i am going to make it the official demo horn. By keeping it with one valve, and pitching that valve in Bb, literally anyone familiar with a trombone can at least try it out.

Also, to let the cat out of the bag on one front, part of why the horn has to come apart is I plan to improve several off the shelf parts on virtually every horn. The flange connecting the bell to the cross brace for example kinda sucks. They are always the same, flimsy, and boring. Also, other than one or two bespoke brands, ferrules are boring as well. My plan it to have more attractive components manufactured for a whole much of these run of the mill pieces, just to give the horns some class.