Trombone Materials

[Matt K]

As suggested, this thread will be an aggregation of all sorts of information about instrument materials.


Metals

Material Name	Copper Content	Zinc Content	Other Materials	Notes
Yellow Brass	70%	30%
Gold Brass/Rose Brass	80%/85%	20%/15%		These terms have been applied differently by various manufacturers over time.
Red Brass (or "Commercial Bronze")	90%	10%		Sometimes referred to as "Commercial Bronze"
Coprion	100%			Electroformed, pure copper
Sterling Silver (Silver Sonic)	7.5%		92.5% Silver	Alloy used for King Silver Sonic instruments, which were incidentally also commonly lacquered over.
Bronze	90%		10% Tin
Nickel (also "Nickel Silver" or "German Silver")	60%	20%	20% nickel	This combination makes it sort-of a brass. There's actually no "silver", strictly speaking, in nickel silver.
Silver (electroformed)			100% Silver

Can someone remind me the differences between the various types of silver? I recall Bach having silver bells that were electroformed but also seem to recall there being a difference between king bells (silver sonic) but I might be mistaken about that.

I know Rath has bronze stuff... something like 80% copper, 10% zinc, 10% tin or something to that effect?

Ditto with nickel. Rath has nickel bells and if I recall the King Tempo as well?

Did I miss something? I could include non metal materials too like carbon fiber and plastic but thought it better just to leave it at this for the moment.

Working on adding lines to the tables in phpbb now.

[StevenC]

I know Rath has bronze stuff... something like 80% copper, 10% zinc, 10% tin or something to that effect?

Olds Supers had bronze bells, and Reynolds, of course, had their "Bronze-o-lyte". I never knew the numbers, but if it is bronze, it should be copper alloyed with tin.

[BGuttman]

There is something called "commercial bronze" that is actually a red brass (don't remember if it's 85/15 or 90/10). I think Bronz-O-Lyte was actually this.

King used Sterling Silver, which is an alloy of 92.5% silver, with the balance being something like copper.

Bach used an electroformed silver that is pure and is called SGX.

[baileyman]

I have a couple NY Bachs with something different for the bells, a less yellow more green or brown darker overall brass, i guess. Is this German brass? Dunno. I struggle to describe the color.

[BGuttman]

I should point out that Shires uses Sterling Silver for silver parts (leadpipes, bells).

I believe silver belled Conns were SGX. I don't know if King silver bells were ever SGX.

Note that nickel silver is generally 60% copper, 20% nickel, and 20% zinc, which makes it a sort-of brass. No silver in Nickel Silver (also called German Silver). Olds made some trombones from this alloy, notably the Opera O23.

Checked out the formula for Commercial Bronze (Alloy 220) which is 90% copper, 10% zinc (making it really a brass).

[Neo Bri]

No silver in Nickel Silver (also called German Silver).

Also known as mythril!

[Matt K]

I have a couple NY Bachs with something different for the bells, a less yellow more green or brown darker overall brass, i guess. Is this German brass? Dunno. I struggle to describe the color.

It's possible they have a patina or in the case of them having lacquer, that it had a goldish tint to it. I had a Bach 42 from the 60s that had a very nice lacquer on it that was similar to that.

Thanks for the ratios bruce; I did a very short search earlier today before running errands and couldn't remember all the various sources I'd used in the past to find it!

Now I want a mythril leadpipe now that I've made that association!

[Matt K]

Checked out the formula for Commercial Bronze (Alloy 220) which is 90% copper, 10% zinc (making it really a brass).

So "Commercial Bronze" is basically just red brass then. Interesting!

[BGuttman]

Note that real bronze (as used in cannons or marine applications) is a mixture of primarily copper ant tin (mostly copper). There are a variety of bronze alloys but I can't verify that any were ever used for trombones. Bronze is a lot more brittle than brass and that makes it much harder to work the way we fabricate trombones. Most bronze items I know of are generally cast from a melt.

[Matt K]

Note that real bronze (as used in cannons or marine applications) is a mixture of primarily copper ant tin (mostly copper). There are a variety of bronze alloys but I can't verify that any were ever used for trombones. Bronze is a lot more brittle than brass and that makes it much harder to work the way we fabricate trombones. Most bronze items I know of are generally cast from a melt.

Maybe I'll reach out to Mick and see what he says about it. It's the only material on his site that he doesn't list the exact content of, as far as I can tell!

[blast]

Many years ago I gave Mick Rath some engineering books I had been donated that contained pages of brass formulations used commercially... yes, pages.
His slide bronze is I think, some kind of phosphor bronze... it is much heavier than the red brass he used in the early days. It is only used for slides.

Chris

[JohnL]

Not speaking to any particular manufacturer's product, just a general observation...

While "historical" bronzes were alloys of copper and tin, the term has become something of a "catch-all" for a bunch of different copper-based alloys. There's aluminum bronze (copper plus aluminum), phosphor bronze (copper plus tin and phosphorous), manganese bronze (copper plus zinc, manganese, aluminum, iron, and maybe tin), plus some others.

IMHO, there's no up side to trying to keep an alloy composition a secret when someone can just spend a few bucks (or euros or whatever) and reverse engineer it. As I pointed out on the old place several times, it's not just the composition, it's also the process that determines the alloy's properties. Process is really, really, hard to reverse engineer without some inside knowledge. Yet we have this long tradition of using "trade names" for everything (Re-O-Loy, anyone?).

[whitbey]

I have an Edwards bell that is sterling silver. I think the Conn 88 sterling silver bells are similar as opposed to the Bach silver bells that are different. I think the King Sterling silver bells are different from my Edwards. They do not ring the same or play the same compared to a brass bell.

So what do you think the 92.5% is?

[BGuttman]

It's 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper.

Note that the metal content is only one factor in how a bell responds. The design can matter a lot more.

King identifies sterling bells with a Sterling hallmark (looks like an L with a line through it). Does your Edwards have a similar hallmark?

[Matt K]

Exactly what Bruce said. That's one reason I left out from the table something like generalized playing characteristics. There are so many differences in just the nominal differences like bell gauge, flare, relative thickness at certain points that can potentially make a difference. E.g. Bach gold brass bells are a different weight than yellow brass bells. What makes the yellow brass bell play like it does then? The yellow brass or the lighter gauge bell material? Then you get into more drastic differences like would a Shires "7LW" bell share characteristics between a yellow and sterling silver bell? etc. So difficult to quantify! And beyond that, then there is the interaction between the other parts of the horn. Yikes!

It's interesting because the King Tempo actually have fairly heavy bells but seem to be well regarded as good horns for playing commercial stuff (especially rock). My thoughts are that they get recommended in part because of the nickel, partly because of the smaller bore size, among other reasons that I'm likely not thinking of. E.g. if the same person were to play a yellow 2B would they be more or less inclined to say it was good for the same application? What about if they were blindfolded?

[whitbey]

It's 92.5% silver and 7.5% copper.

Note that the metal content is only one factor in how a bell responds. The design can matter a lot more.

King identifies sterling bells with a Sterling hallmark (looks like an L with a line through it). Does your Edwards have a similar hallmark?

More silver and less copper makes sense. Thanks.

Edwards did not mark the bell any different then there regular logo engraving. Except that there is not a code designation of the bell type.

[Reedman1]

I’ve heard some rumors that Chinese and Taiwanese horns are made from “bad brass”. Personally I would take this with a large grain of salt, as other factors come into play, such as xenophobia, or distrusting the new kids on the block, or resentment at their lower prices. But is there honestly anything to such a rumor - has anyone found “Chinese” brass to be inferior - say, brittle, unresonant, uneven, too soft...? I don’t want any flame wars about this, just a rational discussion of the quality of the material. Any thoughts?

[BGuttman]

The Chinese seem to have a liking for an alloy called CuproNickel, which is an alloy of copper and nickel. It's white in color and thus won't readily substitute for brass but instead replace nickel silver. Big problem with cupronickel is that it is much more difficult to solder than brass, bronze, or nickel silver. Probably the reason why Chinese instruments seem to have a predilection for solder joint breaks.

[Neo Bri]

The Chinese seem to have a liking for an alloy called CuproNickel, which is an alloy of copper and nickel. It's white in color and thus won't readily substitute for brass but instead replace nickel silver. Big problem with cupronickel is that it is much more difficult to solder than brass, bronze, or nickel silver. Probably the reason why Chinese instruments seem to have a predilection for solder joint breaks.

That is interesting.

[Reedman1]

The Chinese seem to have a liking for an alloy called CuproNickel, which is an alloy of copper and nickel. It's white in color and thus won't readily substitute for brass but instead replace nickel silver. Big problem with cupronickel is that it is much more difficult to solder than brass, bronze, or nickel silver. Probably the reason why Chinese instruments seem to have a predilection for solder joint breaks.

Thank you. That's helpful info.

[blast]

I would be interested to know which makers use such materials. I have yet to come across any odd materials or joints that come apart and are then hard to solder. Who are the guilty ones Bruce ?

Chris

[doctortrombone]

I’ve heard some rumors that Chinese and Taiwanese horns are made from “bad brass”. Personally I would take this with a large grain of salt, as other factors come into play, such as xenophobia, or distrusting the new kids on the block, or resentment at their lower prices. But is there honestly anything to such a rumor - has anyone found “Chinese” brass to be inferior - say, brittle, unresonant, uneven, too soft...? I don’t want any flame wars about this, just a rational discussion of the quality of the material. Any thoughts?

Bach's Chinese-made student horns had problems with the brass formulation. They had a tendency to rot out from the inside. In extreme cases, this led to red-rot. It others, it led to pitting on the inside of the outer slide, seriously compromising the slide action. I've worked on two which required actual honing (not a normal process for an outer slide) and other techs have reported the same. I don't know what was wrong with the alloy. Only that it rotted far more quickly than the alloy used on classic American horns.

[BGuttman]

It's possible that American brass horns are passivated to control corrosion while the Chinese were unaware of this.

Another problem is shipping in a container over the ocean. The salt air can sometimes wreak havoc with many metals.

[Reedman1]

It's possible that American brass horns are passivated to control corrosion while the Chinese were unaware of this.

Another problem is shipping in a container over the ocean. The salt air can sometimes wreak havoc with many metals.

Pardon my ignorance - what is “passivated”?

[elmsandr]

I’ve heard some rumors that Chinese and Taiwanese horns are made from “bad brass”. Personally I would take this with a large grain of salt, as other factors come into play, such as xenophobia, or distrusting the new kids on the block, or resentment at their lower prices. But is there honestly anything to such a rumor - has anyone found “Chinese” brass to be inferior - say, brittle, unresonant, uneven, too soft...? I don’t want any flame wars about this, just a rational discussion of the quality of the material. Any thoughts?

One fun part here.. the processing of the material changes some of the characteristics you mention. Brass work hardens, meaning that it will get harder and more brittle the more you work it. There are billions of ways you can order it from the mill, and then another billion ways to work it in your shop. If neither you nor the mill know what you want, the material will not have the expected characteristics by the time you force it into a trombone shaped object. Ten years ago, I would have advised to run screaming from anything from there. Now, with some help from knowledgeable makers, I’d happily play a horn from many of the makers, even without testing in person.

Cheers,
Andy

[BGuttman]

Pardon my ignorance - what is “passivated”?

Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation_(chemistry)

[Reedman1]

Pardon my ignorance - what is “passivated”?

Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation_(chemistry)

OK - thanks.

[blast]

So Bach's cheap student horns are suspect..... The horns that cost a little more.... Wessex, Mackbrass etc seem fine.... Chinese Rath, Eastman and others are fine. Perhaps the buyers at Bach are a bunch of cheapskates who paid too little and were rewarded with cra...sub-standard product.
I've taken apart New York Bachs and found shoddy workmanship and found serious build flaws in modern custom horns..... life ain't simple.....

Chris

[BillO]

The Chinese are master metallurgists and had been for centuries before the Europeans figured it out. They can make alloys of arbitrary quality ... as good or as poor as you are willing to pay for. That leads to another thing the Chinese have a long history of being masters at, and that is supplying goods to a market. Any market. If you want to pay $200 for a trombone, they will make a $200 trombone for you. Just don't expect them to use the best materials in making it. If you want to pay more, they will make it with better materials and use more care. The choice is yours. So when you get a cheap Chinese trombone, it's a piece of junk because it's cheap, not because it is Chinese.

Cupronickle refers to all alloys of copper an nickel. What we call nickel-silver is a cupronickel alloy. It just so happens that the Chinese were the first to alloy copper and nickel, and they did it without zinc. The Germans invented nickel-silver (or German silver) in an attempt to duplicate the Chinese alloy. I don't know what actual alloy goes into $200 trombones made with "cupronickel", but I do know the best Chinese cupronickel alloys and formulations are prized throughout the world for their ability to resist corrosion. They are used extensively in marine applications and making US currency. If you want to see what cupronickel looks like and how tough it is, look no further than a US quarter.

The worst brass I have seen in my life was in Stanley light fixtures that were made in the good 'ol US of A. They literately crumbled apart after 5 years.

Jus' sayin'

[Slidemo]

Regarding Elkhart era 88H's....

What brass in the above table is used for:

1. Bell, red/gold in colour?
2. Slide, red/bronze in colour?
3. Slide, yellow in colour... I assume this is standard yellow brass?

Cheers,

Hamo

[BGuttman]

Color is only one facet of how an alloy responds. There is also the hardness. Brass is currently sold in three hardnesses, but the amount of metalworking will change it to something else.

So we have alloy, thicness, and work hardening. All are part of the equation.

[bimmerman]

I came across this video and thought it'd be helpful to hear the differences between the bells. Christopher Bill posted a video not too long ago where he went to BAC and tested nickel silver, yellow, rose/gold, and red brass smallbore bells, and you can definitely hear some differences in the sound. He plays a variety of excerpts and styles too.

I'm not sure I agree with all of his thoughts regarding use cases for the bells, but the video captures some of the sound and articulation differences between bell metals with a consistent slide/mpc/player combination. Check it out!

[peteedwards]

Saw this on FB, not sure of the origin

Brass alloys.png

[bassbone]

I have no idea what the numbers are for copper content, zinc content, etc but I'll suggest an addition: Beryllium

Not as common as what is listed here but they are around (I play a Minick Beryllium bell on my Bass)

[JohnL]

I have no idea what the numbers are for copper content, zinc content, etc but I'll suggest an addition: Beryllium

Not as common as what is listed here but they are around (I play a Minick Beryllium bell on my Bass)

That would be beryllium copper (also sometimes called beryllium bronze). It's one of those secret alloy things. The most common BeCu alloys are C17200 (copper with 1.8-2% beryllium) or C17300 (copper with 1.8-2% beryllium and .2-.6% lead).

[BGuttman]

Schilke used to offer beryllium copper bells on some of their trumpets. Don't know what properties it supposedly imparted. By the time they were playing with trombones they had abandoned the beryllium. I should point out that beryllium is VERY poisonous and you should be careful if you create dust from the alloy.

Also, those nice lists of alloys are interesting but availability of some of them in suitable form for inclusion in a trombone may be very limited. Some are intended to be cast from melt. Others may have properties that are not ideal for musical instruments. I'd doubt anybody has tested every single alloy, and doubt anybody ever will. Unless you happen to be independently wealthy enough to buy your own stock and have somebody make them for you.

To add to the problems, the new ROHS regulations in Europe limit the amount of lead in a musical instrument to less than 0.1%, meaning some of the high lead machinable alloys cannot be used.

[JohnL]

Schilke used to offer beryllium copper bells on some of their trumpets. Don't know what properties it supposedly imparted.

As I understand it, the relative high strength of beryllium copper made it possible for them to make the bells very thin (i.e., light and responsive) while still being reasonably durable. Schilke still offers "beryllium" bells, but word on the interwebs is that the newer ones are actually pure copper. Since they still make them quite thin, they tend to be a bit dent-prone.

Even though beryllium is toxic, a beryllium copper bell wouldn't be dangerous to the player. For someone involved in some of the processes that go into making that bell (notably any process that produces fine particulates, such as buffing), appropriate precautions would be necessary.

There's some evidence that beryllium is a carcinogen - once again, primarily related in inhalation of fine particles. My father worked with beryllium (actual beryllium rather than BeCu). He also died of lung cancer, though a lifetime of smoking was probably the primary contributing factor.

Let's get back to trombones.

[LarryPrestonRoberson]

What is the material used for the main tuning slide of an original Elkhart Conn 88H?

[hyperbolica]

What is the material used for the main tuning slide of an original Elkhart Conn 88H?

yellow brass.

[LarryPrestonRoberson]

What is the material used for the main tuning slide of an original Elkhart Conn 88H?

yellow brass.

Thanks!

[TheBoneRanger]

Of late, I've been pondering about the use of nickel in valve section tubing and bracing. The main bell braces on my Edwards, for example, are brass, whereas my Bach with an Ed Thayer valve is nickel in those places.

The most curious one, for me, is the legs of the tuning slides of Bach trombones. The tuning slides of the big horns (50/42/36) all have brass legs, whereas the small bores are nickel. I've wondered why Bach would decided to make a difference in that place in particular, and what difference it would make? Do any other brands use nickel on the male parts of their tuning slides?

Andrew

[minemax03]

Never played on a silver bone before, is it as good as people make it out to be?

[BGuttman]

Solid silver (generally bells only) is a quirky material. I hesitate to say it's better than any other because it's quirks my make your playing worse and not better. It certainly is nice looking!

Silver plate when not lacquer coated tends to be brighter since the coating is much thinner and not absorptive. Many silver plated instruments nowadays have a lacquer coating on them so it really doesn't make that much of a difference.

If you are a beginner, it makes almost no difference at all. You will sound lousy on anything until you develop some skills.

[LeTromboniste]

Graham Nicholson, who makes arguably the best historical trumpets, has described to me a first solid silver trumpet he was making, of a model he's made and tested dozens of before in brass, as having the same sound, except an extra warmth and resonance in the sound and responsiveness in the feel during the first 1/10th of a second of playing a note.

Of course it's a very steep difference in price between brass and silver!

[havard]

Different alloys definately play different.
I have played two identisk conn 88 h. One with red bell, one with yellow.

It was a huge difference. For me the yellow did have a lot more projection, clarity and stability throughout the dynanic range. The red did offer a very mellow sound at soft dynanics but gives a really flashy edge When pushed, for my taste a little too flashy. .
I like both but really dont understand why so few conn 88 players dont use the yellow, as i see that bell as typical conn sound but with , as well, added qialities that f ex Bachs have. Is it just traditions?

[Tbarh]

Different alloys definately play different.
I have played two identisk conn 88 h. One with red bell, one with yellow.

It was a huge difference. For me the yellow did have a lot more projection, clarity and stability throughout the dynanic range. The red did offer a very mellow sound at soft dynanics but gives a really flashy edge When pushed, for my taste a little too flashy. .
I like both but really dont understand why so few conn 88 players dont use the yellow, as i see that bell as typical conn sound but with , as well, added qialities that f ex Bachs have. Is it just traditions?

Håvard!... The Yellow brass version are fairly New i suspect.. How about the red brass one?.. Old Elkhart and 88HT 's are thinner brass.. I have tried a really old Elkhart thin bell Yellow that behaved very much like You described the red brass... Weight trumps material!

[BillO]

I'm pretty sure the yellow brass bell has been available for a while on the 88H. I have a friend that has, what appears to be an early Gen II 88H with a yellow brass bell. He does not think it was a custom job (bought it used), but is not 100% sure. In any case, even if they were not sold new that way, the yellow bell was available.

[ExZacLee]

I played a BAC horn that one of my former students purchased recently. The bell stem was supposed to be gold brass I think, but it looks copper to my eyes.

The bell flare, however, was the most interesting part of the horn (it's a screw bell.) Steel flare, no rim wire or bead - you could put quite an edge on it if you wanted to (as it stands you could cut a steak with it.)

Good horn, good slide, good tuning, good high and low range. Pretty darn good horn. Makes me interested in getting a steel bell.

[harrisonreed]

Yellow 88H came out when Christian Lindberg became a Conn artist in the late 80s /early 90s as the Signature Lindberg model. Now it's called the 88HY. You can see why the 88H would help him so much in his early Trombone + Piano albums, and equally why the 88HY became his choice once he was mostly playing with big orchestras. Throw on some duct tape or leather or what he eventually designed as the "Resistance Balancer" and you can feel comfortable in any accoustic -- and he found himself in every sort of accoustic. I believe he moved over to the solid silver bell around 2000 or so, since that bell seems to project like crazy and still sound kind of dark. Who knows what he was thinking.

I think HOW the horn is built, rather than what it's made out of, has the biggest effect on how it plays. Not just the quality if build, but where the nodes are, how the bracing lets it vibrate, leadpipe, shape of the slides, and how thick the metal is.

[timothy42b]

Makes me interested in getting a steel bell.

Steel, really? I was skeptical (how do they spin one?) but I checked the web site, and here are the options:
Nickel Silver
Yellow Brass
Gold Brass
Copper
Stainless Steel
Phosphor Bronze

Surprising, but there it is.