The Bunker

[BGuttman]

Hello Forumites. Welcome to The Bunker. This is a virtual tavern where you can sit back, sip a glass or cup of whatever, and shoot the ****.

Please note that Politics and Religion are OUT. But complaining about rotten conductors, foot blisters, or Lyme Disease are fine.

This will replace the Side Track Cafe that seems to have disappeared along with everything else that was here for the last 2 years. Oops...

Come in and sit down.

[PhilipEdCarlson]

I thought everything was Political...

[Drizabone]

Nah, its all religious

[Lawrie]

A couple of us were thinking about collective nouns for trombones the other day. In having a look around the internet for suggestions I found a reference to a "plague" of conductors

[BGuttman]

A couple of us were thinking about collective nouns for trombones the other day. In having a look around the internet for suggestions I found a reference to a "plague" of conductors

I think I like a ROAR of trombones.

[whitbey]

Good choice. I don't talk polys at rehearsal for the same reason.

[Kbiggs]

I think a nobility of trombones sounds more... noble.

[Kbiggs]

BTW, is there any intel on when TTF might be back online? It’s difficult enough to think of all the knowledge (and opinion!) that (might) be lost from TC in this change-over to the new, snazzy-looking format, but it would be a great loss indeed if TTF were lost in the cloud, or slowly degrading in a server somewhere...

[BGuttman]

I don't think anybody knows when or if TTF will resurface. This site was created as a "lifeboat" and it appears the Titanic has sunk.

There are probably some backups in storage somewhere but only Richard Byrd can restore them so unless he is amenable, that site is gone. The crew here would be anxious to take a stab at restoring TTF if Richard will allow us.

(Oh, and you now have your two posts and don't need one of us to approve any more.)

[Matt K]

Everything on the site was under the creative commons license, and for that matter it was poitned out to me that the copyright hasn't been updated since 2008, so really everything beyond 2008 is in the public domain. I'm working on my taxes for the next week or so but I'm going to investigate if there's a way to put it in a shell phpBB site or even perhaps this site and merely lock the threads. Theoretically it's possible but I've never dealt much with phpBB's database.

Fortunately, the backup I created was ridiculously overengineered so it would be easy for someone to recreate the posts with it. Just trying to figure out the best way to make that happen.

[StevenC]

The minor, but persistent cough that followed my bout with influenza has finally gone away. It is good to be able to play again, without worrying about uncontrolled coughing.

[BflatBass]

I think the collective noun should depend on if the group is good or bad.
A bad group might be called a "murder" of bones.
A good group.....help me out.

A "celebration" of trombones....that's kinda corny.

[Neo Bri]

An "epiphany" of trombones.

[Drizabone]

- a sack
- a tribe
- a smear
- a blast

[Lawrie]

<tongue stuck firmly in cheek>
A Triumph of trombones
a Cannonade of trombones
- a chorus
- a chorale
- a choir

[PhilipEdCarlson]

A Sack
(A Sack of Trombones, a Sack of Posaune, a Sack of Bones, a Sack of Buttheads... Just: a Sack)

[Jhereg]

The minor, but persistent cough that followed my bout with influenza has finally gone away. It is good to be able to play again, without worrying about uncontrolled coughing.

That's great!!!

[Jhereg]

Hiiiii.

I'm glad to see The Bunker reinstated here. Awesome

In other news. I think it's time to admit I've burnt out on being a musician. Summary of what I mean and why HERE.

Don't feel obligated to respond or convince me otherwise or anything, I'm just thinking out loud. Kind of wish this really were a bar, I feel like this is something to be discussed over a beer.

[Neo Bri]

Hiiiii.

I'm glad to see The Bunker reinstated here. Awesome

In other news. I think it's time to admit I've burnt out on being a musician. Summary of what I mean and why HERE.

Don't feel obligated to respond or convince me otherwise or anything, I'm just thinking out loud. Kind of wish this really were a bar, I feel like this is something to be discussed over a beer.

I have that feeling sometimes. It comes and goes for me, but I understand.

[BGuttman]

Megan, you wouldn't believe the number of ex-musicians I know doing other things. People with great musical pedigrees. All doing things they probably would never have considered when they made the decision to become a musician.

Try a few things. Find out what interests you. Maybe take a course if you can to test out different things. Talk to people. Make use of the State Employment Office. Maybe even do a couple of temping jobs doing odd things. Fortunately, the job market is a lot better than it was when you joined RBBB.

I'll bet if you get a job doing something else and keep music as an avocation, you may even enjoy it more.

[StevenC]

In other news. I think it's time to admit I've burnt out on being a musician.

I'm sorry to hear this, but glad you made your way here to tell us. I expect music will somehow continue to be a significant part of your life. My daughter and nephew are both performance majors. Who knows what the future holds for them? Their present is very different from most undergrads, but they seem happy, optimistic, but realistic.

Yeah, I too wish this were a real bar, but I might opt for something stronger than beer.

[Jhereg]

Megan, you wouldn't believe the number of ex-musicians I know doing other things. People with great musical pedigrees. All doing things they probably would never have considered when they made the decision to become a musician.

Try a few things. Find out what interests you. Maybe take a course if you can to test out different things. Talk to people. Make use of the State Employment Office. Maybe even do a couple of temping jobs doing odd things. Fortunately, the job market is a lot better than it was when you joined RBBB.

I'll bet if you get a job doing something else and keep music as an avocation, you may even enjoy it more.

Thanks BG. That's kind of where I'm headed. I'm considering going back to school for a vet tech degree. I have one offer to play on a cruise ship over the holidays, it's just for four months and I'm accepting it as a sort of YOLO thing. After that, I think I may be done. Still can't believe I'm saying that after all I've been through. Life is weird. Seriously, thanks. Thanks especially for not offering criticisms. It's not any easy choice for anybody. <3

I have that feeling sometimes. It comes and goes for me, but I understand.

Thanks Neo Bri.

I'm sorry to hear this, but glad you made your way here to tell us. I expect music will somehow continue to be a significant part of your life. My daughter and nephew are both performance majors. Who knows what the future holds for them? Their present is very different from most undergrads, but they seem happy, optimistic, but realistic.

Yeah, I too wish this were a real bar, but I might opt for something stronger than beer.

Thanks, and I hope you're right. I hope your daughter and nephew get an education reflective of current trends. Many industries have had to go through this kind of drastic change...I'm sure with the right training they'll be just fine!

You and me both! I actually don't drink beer unless there's nothing else haha. Big fan of vodka, or wine.

[timothy42b]

Don't feel obligated to respond or convince me otherwise or anything, I'm just thinking out loud. Kind of wish this really were a bar, I feel like this is something to be discussed over a beer.

Welcome, good to hear from you! Job or not, at least you're among friends again here.

If it were a bar it would be nice to chat. I have some thoughts along this line, having changed careers several times myself, and having had a family member recently decide teaching was not for her, and leaving the field abruptly, to land somewhere else.

I read a book that kind of spoke to me on this issue, and I want to pass on the recommendation. (It came from one of those lists managers at work are supposed to read. I dutifully do, and sometimes they are good. Black Swan was excellent, as well as Spider and Starfish. But I digress.) It is Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.

[hyperbolica]

Jhereg,
That was me about 30 years ago. I had just played "Eye of the Tiger" one too many times. It wasn't going to plan at all, and it stopped being fun or interesting.

Back then I went to the state employment office and took some aptitude testing, and they gave me a few choices of things they thought I'd be good at. I've had a happy career as an engineer, and I've been able to pick which music I play and who I play with. It took a while, but I came back to music. Never to Eye of the Tiger, though.

[Jhereg]

Jhereg,
That was me about 30 years ago. I had just played "Eye of the Tiger" one too many times. It wasn't going to plan at all, and it stopped being fun or interesting.

Back then I went to the state employment office and took some aptitude testing, and they gave me a few choices of things they thought I'd be good at. I've had a happy career as an engineer, and I've been able to pick which music I play and who I play with. It took a while, but I came back to music. Never to Eye of the Tiger, though.

Thanks hyperbolica. I feel bad, because I've worked very hard all this time. My parents were against my career choice from the beginning, and I fought them so hard about it that at one point I was fully prepared to move out of the house. When I bought my first large bore trombone with my own money, they didn't speak to me for about three days. And then all those years of being put down by others for one thing or another with my playing, or for being a girl, or for trying at all. To sum it up, I poured a lot into it, and it feels wrong to just let it go. But it also feels wrong to press forward while feeling empty inside.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience and thanks all of y'all for letting me talk about this a bit.

[Jhereg]

Welcome, good to hear from you! Job or not, at least you're among friends again here.

If it were a bar it would be nice to chat. I have some thoughts along this line, having changed careers several times myself, and having had a family member recently decide teaching was not for her, and leaving the field abruptly, to land somewhere else.

I read a book that kind of spoke to me on this issue, and I want to pass on the recommendation. (It came from one of those lists managers at work are supposed to read. I dutifully do, and sometimes they are good. Black Swan was excellent, as well as Spider and Starfish. But I digress.) It is Shop Class as Soulcraft: An Inquiry into the Value of Work, by Matthew Crawford.

Hi Tim! Thanks for the recommendation. I see it's a pretty affordable book, I'll add it to my wish list and/or gift it to myself once I have a real job again.
Incidentally my sister has also recently decided that teaching is not for her. She's not leaving abruptly, but she's definitely moving on by the end of the year. It's a scary thing to do...I hope your family member landed somewhere better.

[Matt K]

A career change is really hard. We attach a lot of weight to what we do and there's also the sunk costs we've put into it. I went through the process a few years ago myself, but I had less invested into it than you did. I love the field I ended up in and am much happier, but I'd be lying if I said the process wasn't difficult getting here. My wife has went through a similar change herself too, though her change was in a very different field and was motivated not by dissatisfaction but a better opportunity.

In either case, it's not an easy change. I know several people who have had the process expedited by seeing a psychologist and/or a career counselor. In the West, it seems like we attach an unfortunate stigma to seeing a psychologist; as if only crazy people 'need' to see one. That misses the point quite dramatically. People see psychologists to help improve themselves by utilizing the assistance of someone who is at least nominally an impartial observer of your thoughts. They guide you towards a right direction but help you get there on your own... in very simple terms.

[StevenC]

I hope your daughter and nephew get an education reflective of current trends. Many industries have had to go through this kind of drastic change...I'm sure with the right training they'll be just fine!

I don't know how reflective of current trends conservatory education tends to be, but I also don't know that my daughter would be any more employable if she were to major in English or Journalism. She has four years to figure out how trombone playing fits into the rest of her life. (I guess it's down to two more years.)

Me? My professional life makes me feel like it's time to move on again. I'd love to talk about it, but probably not in a public forum. I'm too young to retire, but too old to start a new career.

[Neo Bri]

Me? My professional life makes me feel like it's time to move on again. I'd love to talk about it, but probably not in a public forum. I'm to young to retire, but too old to start a new career.

I know how you feel.

[StevenC]

Me? My professional life makes me feel like it's time to move on again. I'd love to talk about it, but probably not in a public forum. I'm too young to retire, but too old to start a new career.

I know how you feel.

Don't know. At 98, I'd think you've earned a good retirement.

[Neo Bri]

I know how you feel.

Don't know. At 98, I'd think you've earned a good retirement.

You'd be surprised these days.

[Jhereg]

I don't know how reflective of current trends conservatory education tends to be, but I also don't know that my daughter would be any more employable if she were to major in English or Journalism. She has four years to figure out how trombone playing fits into the rest of her life. (I guess it's down to two more years.)

Me? My professional life makes me feel like it's time to move on again. I'd love to talk about it, but probably not in a public forum. I'm too young to retire, but too old to start a new career.

Yeah, I know what you mean. My boyfriend went to Berklee, and they have a strong emphasis on electronic music and software that has enabled him to find good full time work even when gigs are scarce. He teaches Ableton and Finale and such. I was never even introduced to those things during my education.

She'll figure it out. At least she's trying something she enjoys. Better to try it and be sad about failing than to never try and have regrets for the rest of your life (imo).

Well, if you want to PM and talk about it, I'll be happy to listen. And I do mean just listen, and not provide commentary or suggestions or criticism unless asked. Lately in social media anything one posts seems to become a commentary magnet.

[Jhereg]

A career change is really hard. We attach a lot of weight to what we do and there's also the sunk costs we've put into it. I went through the process a few years ago myself, but I had less invested into it than you did. I love the field I ended up in and am much happier, but I'd be lying if I said the process wasn't difficult getting here. My wife has went through a similar change herself too, though her change was in a very different field and was motivated not by dissatisfaction but a better opportunity.

In either case, it's not an easy change. I know several people who have had the process expedited by seeing a psychologist and/or a career counselor. In the West, it seems like we attach an unfortunate stigma to seeing a psychologist; as if only crazy people 'need' to see one. That misses the point quite dramatically. People see psychologists to help improve themselves by utilizing the assistance of someone who is at least nominally an impartial observer of your thoughts. They guide you towards a right direction but help you get there on your own... in very simple terms.

Thanks Matt. Yeah, it's hard. I feel pretty sad about it. I wish things had ended differently.
I want to take your advice and see a psychologist, for many reasons actually. You wouldn't believe how much hate I've incurred from complete strangers just because I worked for a circus, for one thing. It doesn't make you feel good. Another issue is that my boyfriend is a very successful musician who pulls in the same salary he got on the circus, plus he has so many gigs he has to turn many of them down for lack of time. Meanwhile I earn the same as someone fresh out of high school, and the only paid gigs I've gotten have been on the good word of my talented boyfriend. I can't tell you how much this hurts, and how much it makes me feel like an utter waste on this earth. Especially when I'm applying for jobs day in and day out, and from hundreds of applications there's not one that looked at my resume and thought I was worth hiring. I have worked SO hard all of my life, and it has really come down to nothing, and I find myself asking what my value is at all.

Anyway, yikes, sorry for going into it. I don't want to bogart the Bunker with my problems. TL;DR: if I had health insurance I'd see a psychologist.

[BGuttman]

Megan, chin up.

Tell the people who have it in for the circus that you (1) weren't an animal trainer and (2) noticed that the animals seemed pretty happy with their lot.

As to the rejections, realize that while you are a fantastic trombone player your other skillset is kinda limited and you will need training into any other job. Look into entry levels and see if you can work your way up. Sometimes taking a temp job can lead to something permanent.

I'd really like to talk to Jameson some day. I played around with Ableton Live 8 for a course and haven't used it since. Really need to talk to them -- the machines I installed it on are all dead and I'd like to move my licenses to my current machines but I haven't figured out who to contact.

Note that in today's music market, keyboard, Gee-Tar, and percussion are the main jobs out there (with occasional bass). The really sad part is that most jobs that would hire trombone players are few and far between (and often located near New York City or Los Angeles).

Get a couple of students as a way to keep some income. Contact the local Band Directors and see if somebody can use some help.

Good luck. And we are all here to help any way we can.

[JohnL]

Tell the people who have it in for the circus that you (1) weren't an animal trainer and (2) noticed that the animals seemed pretty happy with their lot.

I'm afraid that would be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline...

[Jhereg]

Tell the people who have it in for the circus that you (1) weren't an animal trainer and (2) noticed that the animals seemed pretty happy with their lot.

I'm afraid that would be like trying to put out a fire with gasoline...

Unfortunately and exactly right John. It sounds so logical, doesn't it, to just tell them you didn't work directly with the animals and that the animals "seemed happy". These people did not care. Five years of getting screamed at, spit on, and generally harassed has made that perfectly clear. I don't know if I can describe what that's like. I wore the Ringling logo, I was hated on sight.
Animals "seeming happy" is actually the biggest problem with animal rights. Anthropomorphism, or imposing your own idea of "happy" onto an animal. But I won't get into all that here. I have tried every tactic to get people to stop being hateful and accusatory, and just listen. I've been mean, and nice, and factual, and sarcastic, and pleading, and dismissive. And none of it works. Bummer.

BG...I'm kind of not sure how to respond. I understand that I have limited skills. I don't think you've seen my resume, but I guess since I'm griping it's fair to just assume, huh. This is the first year in my life that my work history has been deemed insufficient, so pardon me if I was a little surprised to find that out. I have never had trouble getting full time work before, so it took me a while to realize that it was due to having no worth.
Maybe I didn't mention this but I DO work entry level, and have ALWAYS worked entry level when needed. I am not some prude, I am not above any kind of work. All I've wanted for the past year was to be hired at ANY job, and I have been applying for ANY jobs, including fast food, management, teaching, performing, cleaning, cooking, and the list goes on. I don't know why anyone might jump to the conclusion that I haven't tried (and continue to try) every single job hunt tactic that there is. It frankly kind of hurts to find out that I'm viewed this way.

Jameson does not work for Ableton, he will not be able to help you transfer your licenses. That will be up to Ableton The Company. If you want help actually using the software, look up Jameson Boyce on facebook and send him a message, he'll be happy to help.

Sorry for all the long posts, everybody take care and have a happy Monday.

[JohnL]

I have tried every tactic to get people to stop being hateful and accusatory, and just listen. I've been mean, and nice, and factual, and sarcastic, and pleading, and dismissive. And none of it works. Bummer.

It doesn't matter what you do or say because it's not about you, it's about them...

Megan, I've been in a place similar to where you are now. I'm sorry to say I never did get back to where I once was, and it's a pretty sure bet that I never will. On the other hand, where I'm at now is better than OK. I do useful work helping people who something important, and I make a decent living doing so. You mentioned thinking about being a vet tech. A noble calling, and you go home every evening knowing that there was a little bit less misery in the world thanks to you. It can be emotionally taxing, so you'd need to be prepared for that.

It's really hard to step away from a career you though would last a lifetime, but sometimes you don't really have a choice.

[StevenC]

In a reasonably long, reasonably successful career, I have found job searching to be a soul crushing experience. The ability to get a job, and the ability to do a job do not seem to be well correlated. (Tim no doubt has statistics to support or refute this.) I remember back in the '80s, applying for my first software engineering job when the interviewer had no idea what to make of me. "You tell me you are hard working, and yet you have spent the past two years ..." I don't know, it was something about my working in music instead of doing what a good mathineer should. Maybe it was a softball I should have knocked out of the park, but I've always contended that my passions beyond math and engineering make me a better engineer. For my 20+ years in software, it seemed to work for me.

So 20+ years in software engineering was a good way to make a living, if not a great way to make a life. There were plenty of missed family vacations and events. We were always so convinced that what we were working on was more important than anything. Or our managers thought that, and we kind of had to go along. I've never regretted my decision to work as a software engineer and never regretted my decision to leave and go into teaching. Depending on where one lives, the much publicized great need for teachers, especially math teachers is illusory. The assurances my education program made that school districts would value my years spent in industry are not true. So I've stumbled into a fascinating educational niche. I teach in a trauma-senstive residential facility. Teaching this population is not easy, but these girls need what we have to offer. There are days when I can't imagine more rewarding work. There are days when the disrespect and lack of attentiveness are too much for me. I spend days being cursed at, and I must maintain composure. Sometimes I think I am not saintly enough for this job.

Reading what Megan has put out there over the years, I see a level of tenacity and passion that would be an asset in any job. Clearly, not all employers see this. Some employer will see and value these qualities, and find themselves an excellent worker. I have found patience to be a needed attribute in any job search, but how much patience can one be expected to have? We also have to make money.

[StevenC]

Yeah, I know what you mean. My boyfriend went to Berklee, and they have a strong emphasis on electronic music and software that has enabled him to find good full time work even when gigs are scarce. He teaches Ableton and Finale and such. I was never even introduced to those things during my education.

My daughter goes to Oberlin. They've had a technology in music program (TIMARA) for about 50 years, but it is not where daughter's interests are. She is pretty much straight, trombone performance. My parents always supported my educational and career choices, even when they were stupid, and I think I owe her the same. We do not pretend trombone playing is a growth industry, but she'll work something out.

[StevenC]

if I had health insurance I'd see a psychologist.

My county offers many types of low-cost counseling for low income residents. Maybe yours does too.

[bhcordova]

Megan,

Check with your local community health clinic. These are federally/state funded and many offer counseling services (or if not, they have made agreements with local counselors to charge discounted rates). (Full disclosure - I'm the treasurer on the board of my local community health clinic.)

[CharlieB]

Megan.....(if you're still here?)
You've had a real good ten year run at a musical career, with good memories and not so good memories, all of which will blend into the fabric of your past as the the anger and frustration that you are feeling fades. One day you'll be telling your circus stories to wide-eyed grandchildren. Right now though, you feel pretty depressed ??? This will pass as soon as you have a solid plan to move on to the next phase of your life. Meanwhile, your music will stay in your soul, so you must play, even though the music is no longer financially rewarding.

It sounds like you are absolutely on the right track with the desire to train for a new job. There is no future in taking entry level jobs in the hope of "moving up." Those days are long gone. Today, employers are looking for people with skills that will make the company money NOW. An interviewer doesn't want to hear that your qualities are that you are ambitious,intelligent, reliable, conversant, or even a war hero. He wants to hear that you have acquired a skill that his company needs. Acquiring that skill needs to be your new goal. Once you see that path leading to financial security, the passion for the music will reawaken.

FWIW, I just checked the occupational outlook for veterinary assistants. After training, the pay is $25K to $33K per year. That's about the same as an office secretary.

[blast]

Hey, Megan might get another gig..... the music business is like that.... she got the circus gig so it could happen again...she might like the cruise ships.... let's not write her off as a player on this forum.

Chris

[Grah]

And just to show there is still an interest in circus music, although I suppose Sxip Shirey is getting a bit like the one-man band we see so much in the clubs putting proper circus bands out of a job, this is from the Sunday news:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-22/e ... ic/9680224

However, it is interesting from a musical point of view.

[Cush]

Collective nouns continued...

Life is at it's best amid a HOST of trombones...

It's a full pendulum swing away from Ezeliel's "dry bones".

[Cush]

The power of suggestion at work:

a BUNKER of bones...

[JohnL]

How 'bout a GLISSANDO of trombones (but only because a "slide of slide trombones" sounds silly).

[PhilipEdCarlson]

How 'bout a GLISSANDO of trombones (but only because a "slide of slide trombones" sounds silly).

how about we just shorten that to a GLISS ...

[PhilipEdCarlson]

A Pile!

[StevenC]

At our Memorial Day parade today, the two bands were positioned too close together. This made for some Ivesian moments.