Mpcs in British orchestras

[ttf_Ellrod]

I was wondering what British Orchestra trombonists are using these days. Big Alessi mpcs? Bach 5Gs?

[ttf_vegasbound]

Most are around the wick or Bach 4-5 size in the tenors!

[ttf_blast]

4G-5G sizes are almost universal for orchestra tenor players

Bass players vary a bit more... a lot of 2G, some 1 1/2G, some 1 1/4G and a few outliers on big stuff.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_Catastrophone]

As Chris says it’s almost exclusively 4G/5G for tenor players, with 5G being more common. It’s also very rare you’ll see anything except a Bach or a Wick. Trombone wise the vast majority especially amongst freelancers still play an 88H.

[ttf_vegasbound]

One of the exceptions you will of heard of is Carol Jarvis, she plays a DE set up on large bore. Believe it is 102 rim H cup  but Doug could probably tell you for definite .....  But she plays a faux 61/2 in her small bore.....  She is the least gear person you could meet.... At a masterclass someone asked about her small bore mouthpiece and she had to take it out of the horn and read it.... When asked why that size, her reply was it was the one Mick Rath put in the case when she collected it!

[ttf_Ellrod]

We're doing a concert of English music in Feb. Planets, Folk Song Suite, P&C, and something by someone named Parry. Wonderful stuff, some of my favourite music.

My wife and I are in the UK for a few days in May and I got to thinking how nice it would be to hear an English orch play that music in a smaller English concert hall.

Eric H was blowing out some Wicks a few weeks back. The price was low enough to buy a 5ABL just to experiment. I've since bought a used 5BL (from B Weller) as well. The mpc bug is as bad as ever, but, at least, I'm buying cheaper mpcs. No more $220 Griego-Alessis. (The 5ABL was $29.95). I can't recall which of the 5AL and 5BL was intended for the 88H and which was intended for the 42B. Anyone?

On a bit of an English thing these days. Saw Darkest Hour on the holidays. Odd film. Helpful to know a bit of British history and be a little bit familiar with the parliamentary system. Good performance from G Oldman - didn't he play Sid Vicious early in his career? - but I recall seeing Rob't Hardy in same role in a tv series years ago. Am reading the Guardian more these days. There's only so much Trump one can take.

[ttf_BGuttman]

The 4AL was Denis Wick's choice for his 88H.  I found the 4AL to be an air hog, so I play a 4BL.  Back then they didn't have AB's or half sizes; maybe a 4.5 ABL would be better for me   I'm not changing now.  A 4BL on large bore and a 4BS on small bore.  Works for me.

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

I think the AL was for Conn and the BL for Bach.

Denis has been writing essays on facebook, and I think one of them was about the beginning of the development of the mouthpiece line.

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 12, 2018, 02:51PMThe 4AL was Denis Wick's choice for his 88H.  I found the 4AL to be an air hog, so I play a 4BL.  Back then they didn't have AB's or half sizes; maybe a 4.5 ABL would be better for me   I'm not changing now.  A 4BL on large bore and a 4BS on small bore.  Works for me.

Denis always used an 8H, never an 88H..... he used a 42B for a bit but never liked the valve.... he could honk out the valve notes as fakes on an 8H no problem.
The 4AL was the original. Everything else followed on.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_Trombocholik]

Any professionals use Wick bass mouthpieces?

[ttf_vegasbound]

Quote from: Trombocholik on Jan 12, 2018, 11:09PMAny professionals use Wick bass mouthpieces?

Many do, as has been said 4 AL. Was the original, then Denis designed the 4bl. For the 42 to brighten the sound, and towards the end of his playing career he switched to the 5 AL.

The 5abl was if memory serves designed for Hellen Vollum  she studied with Denis from about age 12 or so.

[ttf_Trombocholik]

Thanks,  but I mean 2AL, 1AL, 0AL, 00AL.

[ttf_Edward_Solomon]

All the Maniacal 4 trombonists use Wick mouthpieces and mutes. Matt Jefferson is the bass trombone.

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Quote from: blast on Jan 12, 2018, 03:39PMDenis always used an 8H, never an 88H..... he used a 42B for a bit but never liked the valve.... he could honk out the valve notes as fakes on an 8H no problem.
The 4AL was the original. Everything else followed on.

Chris Stearn
Denis sound on the fakes tones was just as good or better then valved tones.

[ttf_bigbassbone1]

Quote from: svenlarsson on Jan 14, 2018, 01:38AMDenis sound on the fakes tones was just as good or better then valved tones.


Is there a recording somewhere where you can hear him do this? I would love to hear it for myself. I have never heard anyone play false tones that convinced me they were better or equal to using the valve. 

[ttf_savio]

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 14, 2018, 03:19AMIs there a recording somewhere where you can hear him do this? I would love to hear it for myself. I have never heard anyone play false tones that convinced me they were better or equal to using the valve. 

Many years ago I had a masterclass with Denis Wick. I played Lebedev for him. He told me to make my trigger notes better and he played some of the Lebedev for me. His trigger notes sounded nice and open. When I finish the masterclass my regular teacher told me to look at the trombone Denis was playing. It was first then I noticed his trombone was a straight horn, no trigger. I was in shock!! I was young and couldn't believe it, but his false notes was outstanding! I never forget that moment.

Leif

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: Trombocholik on Jan 12, 2018, 11:09PMAny professionals use Wick bass mouthpieces?

To answer the question.... NO.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_bigbassbone1]

Quote from: savio on Jan 14, 2018, 05:20AMMany years ago I had a masterclass with Denis Wick. I played Lebedev for him. He told me to make my trigger notes better and he played some of the Lebedev for me. His trigger notes sounded nice and open. When I finish the masterclass my regular teacher told me to look at the trombone Denis was playing. It was first then I noticed his trombone was a straight horn, no trigger. I was in shock!! I was young and couldn't believe it, but his false notes was outstanding! I never forget that moment.

Leif

Fantastic! I would love to hear that myself. The only person I have ever heard live who I thought nearly convinced me with their false notes was Harkan Bjorkman. But even then, im not totally sure I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference. I am looking forward to the day that I am fooled.

[ttf_bonesmarsh]

In 2000 I caught a masterclass with Alain Trudel playing a 6 1/2AL sized Trudel mouthpiece, on a prototype Yamaha .547 with a piston valved F attachment. The valve kept failing and sticking open or closed half way.

Eventually Trudel gave up on the valve and just played everything on the straight horn. His low register warm up was almost all of the bitchy Richard Strauss bass bone orchestral excerpts..played on the straight horn, including low BB.

No difference in tone quality between open and trigger notes-- when the valve did work on occasion.

[ttf_watermailonman]

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Jan 14, 2018, 03:19AMIs there a recording somewhere where you can hear him do this? I would love to hear it for myself. I have never heard anyone play false tones that convinced me they were better or equal to using the valve. 

Yes, I can understand it could be hard to believe if never experienced, but once you have heard live as described by Leif you will be convinced...

... or you will still doubt they can be used instead of trigger notes.

If you've been around professionals who can show them to you it is easier to belive. Unfortunately the fake notes is beginning to be a lost art. Certainly it must be jiddisch to most amateur musicians. Young pros also often neglect this art. It's understandable. I don't even think they teach these things at college anymore. They did in Stockholm in the 80-ies. Today I know aspiring pro bass trombone players who don't know how to do them properly. They may use them for practice but have apparently no use for them. Why? Maybe they do not do them right?

I thought it was impossible FOR ME to do fakes tones with a good sound until I learned. What makes them preferrable on a single is both C and B are in the middle of the slide + they are in tune.
Very fast runs can be easier because you do not need to be far out on the slide. Fake notes are a help as well as E/bE-tuning and two valves. You use what you think helps the situating best. Fake notes is another tool in the box. I use all of it where it helps me.

I have some videos on my page in the signature where I show how I practice fake tones. I think they have a place in music and my fake notes are not just for practice.

/Tom

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

http://www.dansr.com/wick/resources/how-i-became-a-mouthpiece-maker

[ttf_Duffle]

Quote from: blast on Jan 12, 2018, 03:39PMDenis always used an 8H, never an 88H..... he used a 42B for a bit but never liked the valve.... he could honk out the valve notes as fakes on an 8H no problem.
The 4AL was the original. Everything else followed on.

Chris Stearn

Denis mainly played on an 8H but between the mid '70's and early '80's Denis played mainly on a straight Bach 42 with god brass bell and lightweight nickel slides - I understand that Eric Crees found it for him, but he briefly played on a 42B - it might have been Peter Gane's instrument. He didn't need a valve.

Quote from: vegasbound on Jan 13, 2018, 12:25AMMany do, as has been said 4 AL. Was the original, then Denis designed the 4bl. For the 42 to brighten the sound, and towards the end of his playing career he switched to the 5 AL.

The 5abl was if memory serves designed for Hellen Vollum  she studied with Denis from about age 12 or so.

Helen Vollum  is a stunning player - I think she is the player that has impressed me the most in recent years.


Back to the subject - in addition to the Bachs and Wicks there are quite a few Schilkes out there too, mainly 51s or 52s and 5.1s and 5.2s. I've also seen a couple of Hammonds and a few Doug Elliotts.........

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: Duffle on Jan 16, 2018, 01:14PMDenis mainly played on an 8H but between the mid '70's and early '80's Denis played mainly on a straight Bach 42 with god brass bell and lightweight nickel slides - I understand that Eric Crees found it for him, but he briefly played on a 42B - it might have been Peter Gane's instrument. He didn't need a valve.

Helen Vollum  is a stunning player - I think she is the player that has impressed me the most in recent years.


Back to the subject - in addition to the Bachs and Wicks there are quite a few Schilkes out there too, mainly 51s or 52s and 5.1s and 5.2s. I've also seen a couple of Hammonds and a few Doug Elliotts.........


I was studying with him in the mid '70's when he switched over to Bachs. He was going to bring back some Conns from a US tour but they had closed down in Elkhart, so he bought 12 Bachs back. He kept a 42B that had a lacquer flaw on the valve tube, so it would be hard to sell on. The 42 came after that.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

Ray Premru liked my Bach 50BG3 with lightweight slide quite a bit, and he told me that at some point he bought a single valve with the same specs while on tour in the US. He liked the way it blew and sounded, but after playing it in the Philharmonia for a while, Dudley Bright asked him to switch back to the Holton in order to blend better with the Conns the tenors played.

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 16, 2018, 06:37PMRay Premru liked my Bach 50BG3 with lightweight slide quite a bit, and he told me that at some point he bought a single valve with the same specs while on tour in the US. He liked the way it blew and sounded, but after playing it in the Philharmonia for a while, Dudley Bright asked him to switch back to the Holton in order to blend better with the Conns the tenors played.

I know where that Bach is....

Chris Stearn

[ttf_Edward_Solomon]

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 16, 2018, 06:37PMRay Premru liked my Bach 50BG3 with lightweight slide quite a bit, and he told me that at some point he bought a single valve with the same specs while on tour in the US. He liked the way it blew and sounded, but after playing it in the Philharmonia for a while, Dudley Bright asked him to switch back to the Holton in order to blend better with the Conns the tenors played.

Makes sense. In fact, Ray was one of the two trombonists (the other being Ron Barron) interviewed for André Previn's book The Orchestra. Ron said:

"We get along pretty well together in the section and we try to use comparable equipment. For example, when we were in London in '76, for Brahms 1 we used our Conn trombones. I've always liked consistency of sound, as I was trained to appreciate in Cincinatti, and as I hear out of British sections, nice, evenly matched, everybody thinking alike. And the Conn sound blends pretty well, even with the Holton bass trombone. It's important, in a section, not only to have a similar concept of sound, but also to have equipment that matches up. In brass, you really have to satisfy both requirements. Well, after this London programme there was an encore - Seiji Ozawa chose the ending of the Miraculous Mandarin, wanting to show off trombones and some of the loud, driving parts of the orchestra - and for that we picked up our Vincent Bach instruments and played those. I asked Ray Premru, from the Philharmonia, who was in the audience, if it made any difference. And Ray thought it really did, the Bachs giving a much brighter, harder sound, while the Conns were more mellow. That was in the Festival Hall. I didn't mind playing there, though it was hard to tell, the orchestra being out in the open like that. Perhaps it's good nowadays to have a hall a bit bass-light, especially with our loud, powerful American orchestras."

The book is filled with voices from the past, who give their insights on performing in an orchestra. It's fascinating.

[ttf_paulyg]

FWIW, the valve/attachment on my 88H is so bad that all those may as well be fake notes..

[ttf_watermailonman]

Quote from: paulyg on Yesterday at 07:58 PMFWIW, the valve/attachment on my 88H is so bad that all those may as well be fake notes..



Fake notes are not bad notes per se. They can be played with a good sound or with a bad sound  For your problem be sure to check the valve is strung correctly and after that check the rotor for leaks. Check the markings on the rotor and be sure they match, also check the two stops. If a cork/stop is missing or damaged the rotor may not work very well. If no fault there then check if something is stuck inside the valve section (a rubber, a pencil some dirt?)

/Tom   

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

Quote from: Edward_Solomon on Jan 17, 2018, 09:18AMMakes sense. In fact, Ray was one of the two trombonists (the other being Ron Barron) interviewed for André Previn's book The Orchestra. Ron said:

"We get along pretty well together in the section and we try to use comparable equipment. For example, when we were in London in '76, for Brahms 1 we used our Conn trombones. I've always liked consistency of sound, as I was trained to appreciate in Cincinatti, and as I hear out of British sections, nice, evenly matched, everybody thinking alike. And the Conn sound blends pretty well, even with the Holton bass trombone. It's important, in a section, not only to have a similar concept of sound, but also to have equipment that matches up. In brass, you really have to satisfy both requirements. Well, after this London programme there was an encore - Seiji Ozawa chose the ending of the Miraculous Mandarin, wanting to show off trombones and some of the loud, driving parts of the orchestra - and for that we picked up our Vincent Bach instruments and played those. I asked Ray Premru, from the Philharmonia, who was in the audience, if it made any difference. And Ray thought it really did, the Bachs giving a much brighter, harder sound, while the Conns were more mellow. That was in the Festival Hall. I didn't mind playing there, though it was hard to tell, the orchestra being out in the open like that. Perhaps it's good nowadays to have a hall a bit bass-light, especially with our loud, powerful American orchestras."

The book is filled with voices from the past, who give their insights on performing in an orchestra. It's fascinating.

By the time I got to Boston they rarely if ever played Bach. Ron and Norman both grew up playing Conns and were most comfortable on them. When Doug Yeo, who grew up playing a Bach 50B2, won the job, they asked him to come back with an adjustment to the sound he was making, and he worked with Dave Monette to modify a Bach 50 with a Thayer valve and some replaced parts that were treated with Dave's annealing processes, which thickened and warmed up the sound. He played that for a few years, but by the time I got there had completed his Yamaha model and was playing that nearly all the time.

Norman had a complete Monette tenor trombone that he played sometimes, but it was a bit much for the middle of the section, so he often mixed it with his 88H, sometimes playing the Monette bell with the Conn slide but more often playing the Conn bell with the Monette slide.

A few years later, at about the same time, Norman got a Shires and Ron got an Edwards, both with lightweight red brass bells very much like 88Hs. Once they settled into those instruments and Doug with his Yamaha, that was the most unified blend I heard from them.

[ttf_MaestroHound]

Quote from: blast on Jan 14, 2018, 05:43AMTo answer the question.... NO.

Chris Stearn

Interesting (above quote was an answer to a question that asked if UK pro bass trombone players used Wick bass mouthpieces), but I do get a feeling that their bass line is not nearly as complete as tenor line. I tried to like a 2AL for some things for a while, but eventually settled on a Yamaha 58 for that purpose. If they had a little variations, like ABL that they do with some tenor pieces, I might have found something that worked for me. I do love 4BS for both .525"/.547" and .500" though.

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: MaestroHound on Today at 07:47 AMInteresting (above quote was an answer to a question that asked if UK pro bass trombone players used Wick bass mouthpieces), but I do get a feeling that their bass line is not nearly as complete as tenor line. I tried to like a 2AL for some things for a while, but eventually settled on a Yamaha 58 for that purpose. If they had a little variations, like ABL that they do with some tenor pieces, I might have found something that worked for me. I do love 4BS for both .525"/.547" and .500" though.

I think that it may be not a case of the Wick pieces being bad, but more a case that on the bass trombone there have always been good mouthpieces available and therefore not so much incentive to change to a Wick. Denis did give me one of his heritage mouthpieces when they first came out. It seemed very good, but not enough to change from a  Mt Vernon Bach.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_MaestroHound]

Quote from: blast on Today at 10:24 AMI think that it may be not a case of the Wick pieces being bad, but more a case that on the bass trombone there have always been good mouthpieces available and therefore not so much incentive to change to a Wick. Denis did give me one of his heritage mouthpieces when they first came out. It seemed very good, but not enough to change from a  Mt Vernon Bach.

Chris Stearn

Oh of course. Maybe "tried to like a 2AL" was too harsh--I did like it. Just wished I could tweak some things about it, and then came Yamaha 58 that was closer to what I wanted.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

I have a Heritage 2NAL which I like a lot. 

[ttf_Eyedoc]

Have you played the regular 2AL? Is the difference more than cosmetics and gold plated rim?

[ttf_vegasbound]

Quote from: Eyedoc on Jan 21, 2018, 12:07AMHave you played the regular 2AL? Is the difference more than cosmetics and gold plated rim?

The N denotes narrow rim

[ttf_fsung]

Quote from: vegasbound on Jan 21, 2018, 01:14AMThe N denotes narrow rim

I think Eyedoc is asking whether or not, given the differences between the "regular" and "Heritage" mpcs in mass and shape, there's a perceptible difference in their respective playing characteristics:

[ttf_vegasbound]

Then yes the characteristics as regard playing are very different!

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Jan 16, 2018, 06:37PMRay Premru liked my Bach 50BG3 with lightweight slide quite a bit, and he told me that at some point he bought a single valve with the same specs while on tour in the US. He liked the way it blew and sounded, but after playing it in the Philharmonia for a while, Dudley Bright asked him to switch back to the Holton in order to blend better with the Conns the tenors played.

For what it is worth (not much, I'll admit) I remember walking into Charterhouse Music .... a long since defunct London instrument shop, and the boss of the place telling me that Ray had walked in a few weeks previously and bought said light slide gold bell 50B. He probably forgot when and where he got it after a few years. I don't think it lasted long in the orchestra at all !!

Chris Stearn

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

Quote from: blast on Jan 21, 2018, 05:42AMFor what it is worth (not much, I'll admit) I remember walking into Charterhouse Music .... a long since defunct London instrument shop, and the boss of the place telling me that Ray had walked in a few weeks previously and bought said light slide gold bell 50B. He probably forgot when and where he got it after a few years. I don't think it lasted long in the orchestra at all !!

Chris Stearn



It's also possible I misremembered.

[ttf_Duffle]

Quote from: blast on Jan 21, 2018, 05:42AMFor what it is worth (not much, I'll admit) I remember walking into Charterhouse Music .... a long since defunct London instrument shop, and the boss of the place telling me that Ray had walked in a few weeks previously and bought said light slide gold bell 50B. He probably forgot when and where he got it after a few years. I don't think it lasted long in the orchestra at all !!

Chris Stearn



Whatever happened to Charterhouse Music - I bought a very nice 42B there way back when?

I believe Ray Premru used a Wick 2AL for a while - it was based on his Mt Vernon 2G......

[ttf_Duffle]

Quote from: blast on Jan 21, 2018, 05:42AMFor what it is worth (not much, I'll admit) I remember walking into Charterhouse Music .... a long since defunct London instrument shop, and the boss of the place telling me that Ray had walked in a few weeks previously and bought said light slide gold bell 50B. He probably forgot when and where he got it after a few years. I don't think it lasted long in the orchestra at all !!

Chris Stearn



Whatever happened to Charterhouse Music - I bought a very nice 42B there way back when?

I believe Ray Premru used a Wick 2AL for a while - it was based on his Mt Vernon 2G......