My similarly aged 42B has a completely worn valve, due to lack of attention. It leaks from at least two places. With enough oil it does work.
How to lube my 2nd valve?
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ttf_Burgerbob
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ttf_boneagain
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 05:11 PMI was never told anything about trombone care as a youngster.
Where do you think the wear occurs?
I went back and looked at those photos in the repair section. I'd have to take mine apart again to be sure, but it looks like the seal is on the outer surface of the cylinder, and the bearing surfaces are where the spindles fit inside the end cap plates.
The seal would be compromised if the valve were dry, maybe, but I never noticed that happening, so maybe there's enough spit in the valve to fill that small gap, or vaseline from the tuning slides migrates. That's what we used back then. Any way it would close up next time you oiled it.
The bearing surfaces could wear, but if they wore enough to increase the gap, seems like the valve would bind pretty quickly. Those surfaces should be oiled, I think, but I don't see how to get much in there. Vacuum won't pull any.
Let's look at this BEFORE Bonefire tomorrow. You might be surprised
Where do you think the wear occurs?
I went back and looked at those photos in the repair section. I'd have to take mine apart again to be sure, but it looks like the seal is on the outer surface of the cylinder, and the bearing surfaces are where the spindles fit inside the end cap plates.
The seal would be compromised if the valve were dry, maybe, but I never noticed that happening, so maybe there's enough spit in the valve to fill that small gap, or vaseline from the tuning slides migrates. That's what we used back then. Any way it would close up next time you oiled it.
The bearing surfaces could wear, but if they wore enough to increase the gap, seems like the valve would bind pretty quickly. Those surfaces should be oiled, I think, but I don't see how to get much in there. Vacuum won't pull any.
Let's look at this BEFORE Bonefire tomorrow. You might be surprised
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ttf_wgwbassbone
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Yesterday at 01:59 PMfalse for me, though to be fair, the only time I ever had tuning grease of any type degrade from hetmans was when I stored my double case vertically in a locker. The bottom horn had oil leak into the tuning slides (it was upside down).
Knew I should've worded this differently. There's always someone. I meant the mixing the two in a valve causes the valve to stick. It often happens if you pour oil down through the tuning slide receiver.
Knew I should've worded this differently. There's always someone. I meant the mixing the two in a valve causes the valve to stick. It often happens if you pour oil down through the tuning slide receiver.
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ttf_timothy42b
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Quote from: boneagain on Yesterday at 06:37 PMLet's look at this BEFORE Bonefire tomorrow. You might be surprised
I'll come early.
(for those of you who don't know, Dave is the local master of valve engineering)
I'll come early.
(for those of you who don't know, Dave is the local master of valve engineering)
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ttf_john sandhagen
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Quote from: Ellrod on Yesterday at 10:27 AM(In my best Dennis Hopper/Christopher Walken voice): Just what are you saying here John?
That taking a valve apart isn't anything to be afraid of. I spent the week following ITF at the Porkorny seminar. One theme that reoccured was that many players had the chops and skills to play something difficult but overthought/analyzed until they couldn't. I see the same thing here, a simple 200 year old mechanical device that is serviceable with a flathead screwdriver and a small mallet....but we'd rather trust it to professionals or find silly end arounds.
That taking a valve apart isn't anything to be afraid of. I spent the week following ITF at the Porkorny seminar. One theme that reoccured was that many players had the chops and skills to play something difficult but overthought/analyzed until they couldn't. I see the same thing here, a simple 200 year old mechanical device that is serviceable with a flathead screwdriver and a small mallet....but we'd rather trust it to professionals or find silly end arounds.
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ttf_kbiggs
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
^this.
K.I.S.S.
"Just tongue and blow, kid."
--John Coffey (attributed)
K.I.S.S.
"Just tongue and blow, kid."
--John Coffey (attributed)
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ttf_hyperbolica
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Taking apart my Elkhart Conns is one thing, and I've been able to do that since high school. Taking apart (and more importantly reassembling) a tight tolerance Kanstul CR is a different thing. Get someone experienced to show you how to do it the first time.
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ttf_BillO
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 05:11 PMWhere do you think the wear occurs?
The spindle bearings can wear if not lubed. When they do the rotor can come into contact with the casing. The condition is so gradual that it might not be noticed until the damage is quite severe. The spindle bearings and linkages should be oiled a few times a year. As far as I know the rotor itself does not really need oiling for lubrication or sealing unless it is already damaged or badly made. If you oil it, do it to keep the corrosion at bay. Of course that could be avoided if manufacturers made the rotors and casing out of corrosion resistant materials.
The spindle bearings can wear if not lubed. When they do the rotor can come into contact with the casing. The condition is so gradual that it might not be noticed until the damage is quite severe. The spindle bearings and linkages should be oiled a few times a year. As far as I know the rotor itself does not really need oiling for lubrication or sealing unless it is already damaged or badly made. If you oil it, do it to keep the corrosion at bay. Of course that could be avoided if manufacturers made the rotors and casing out of corrosion resistant materials.
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ttf_JohnL
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
If you play on an Olds bass later than about 1960, you'd best know how to disassemble/reassemble a rotor and carry the necessary tools to do so, along with a replacement o-ring for the stop post. That little sucker can fail without warning, leaving you with a noisy, misaligned valve, and the valve has to be disassembled to replace it.
It's maybe a ten minute job to pull the rotor apart, clean and lube, and put it back together again. If I'm doing it in the middle of a concert, more like five minutes or less.
It's maybe a ten minute job to pull the rotor apart, clean and lube, and put it back together again. If I'm doing it in the middle of a concert, more like five minutes or less.
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ttf_bonesmarsh
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
JohnL-
The spring on my '55 S23 completely snapped. Late 1800s German technology, as you well know. I had unwrap the spring from a small piston valve BBb tuba, wrap the straightened copper wire counterclockwise around a pencil, add the two loops to the end of the new spring with needle nose pliers. Then calculate the wind to allow for the set-pen, which is less than the diameter of a pencil lead and about 1/16th inch long.
I made test samples for two days. Thought about it for 2 more. Then acted.
JohnL, as you know, to properly oil an S23 it takes the removal of 10 screws, and then a steady hand and a stout heart. I just bought a Hetmanns bottle with the needle already on the tip of the nozzle, and blow Wick oil all over the interior of EVERYTHING while the valves are upside down, and just drizzle the stuff everywhere.
The spring on my '55 S23 completely snapped. Late 1800s German technology, as you well know. I had unwrap the spring from a small piston valve BBb tuba, wrap the straightened copper wire counterclockwise around a pencil, add the two loops to the end of the new spring with needle nose pliers. Then calculate the wind to allow for the set-pen, which is less than the diameter of a pencil lead and about 1/16th inch long.
I made test samples for two days. Thought about it for 2 more. Then acted.
JohnL, as you know, to properly oil an S23 it takes the removal of 10 screws, and then a steady hand and a stout heart. I just bought a Hetmanns bottle with the needle already on the tip of the nozzle, and blow Wick oil all over the interior of EVERYTHING while the valves are upside down, and just drizzle the stuff everywhere.
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ttf_timothy42b
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Update:
Okay, I have to eat my words. It was leaking, and enough to make playing just slightly difficult. Dave got oil into the right places, enough to seal again, and the difference in playing was dramatic.
He also pointed out that the corks needed replacing, and that someone had replaced a screw in the stop plate with the wrong size. I've never had the stop plate off myself, but the corks have been replaced at least once, and I didn't do that, so obviously a tech had it apart. I dropped it off at the music store for repairs on the way home from rehearsal.
But before that happened, I had another breakdown, one I've never had before. I played two or three pieces and was feeling really solid about my playing. I seemed to be getting more focused tone with less effort than usual. And then, disaster. I couldn't get a clear note out, it felt exactly like I was playing false tones all over the horn. With extreme effort I could sort of get a note, and some were better than others, but playing was super painful. I thought it was me but the guy next to me played one note and handed it back shaking his head. It turned out the spit valve cork had picked that moment to shred. Stuffing paper towel in it got me through the rest of the rehearsal.
Okay, I have to eat my words. It was leaking, and enough to make playing just slightly difficult. Dave got oil into the right places, enough to seal again, and the difference in playing was dramatic.
He also pointed out that the corks needed replacing, and that someone had replaced a screw in the stop plate with the wrong size. I've never had the stop plate off myself, but the corks have been replaced at least once, and I didn't do that, so obviously a tech had it apart. I dropped it off at the music store for repairs on the way home from rehearsal.
But before that happened, I had another breakdown, one I've never had before. I played two or three pieces and was feeling really solid about my playing. I seemed to be getting more focused tone with less effort than usual. And then, disaster. I couldn't get a clear note out, it felt exactly like I was playing false tones all over the horn. With extreme effort I could sort of get a note, and some were better than others, but playing was super painful. I thought it was me but the guy next to me played one note and handed it back shaking his head. It turned out the spit valve cork had picked that moment to shred. Stuffing paper towel in it got me through the rest of the rehearsal.
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ttf_timothy42b
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How to lube my 2nd valve?
Update:
Okay, I have to eat my words. It was leaking, and enough to make playing just slightly difficult. Dave got oil into the right places, enough to seal again, and the difference in playing was dramatic.
He also pointed out that the corks needed replacing, and that someone had replaced a screw in the stop plate with the wrong size. I've never had the stop plate off myself, but the corks have been replaced at least once, and I didn't do that, so obviously a tech had it apart. I dropped it off at the music store for repairs on the way home from rehearsal.
But before that happened, I had another breakdown, one I've never had before. I played two or three pieces and was feeling really solid about my playing. I seemed to be getting more focused tone with less effort than usual. And then, disaster. I couldn't get a clear note out, it felt exactly like I was playing false tones all over the horn. With extreme effort I could sort of get a note, and some were better than others, but playing was super painful. I thought it was me but the guy next to me played one note and handed it back shaking his head. It turned out the spit valve cork had picked that moment to shred. Stuffing paper towel in it got me through the rest of the rehearsal.
Okay, I have to eat my words. It was leaking, and enough to make playing just slightly difficult. Dave got oil into the right places, enough to seal again, and the difference in playing was dramatic.
He also pointed out that the corks needed replacing, and that someone had replaced a screw in the stop plate with the wrong size. I've never had the stop plate off myself, but the corks have been replaced at least once, and I didn't do that, so obviously a tech had it apart. I dropped it off at the music store for repairs on the way home from rehearsal.
But before that happened, I had another breakdown, one I've never had before. I played two or three pieces and was feeling really solid about my playing. I seemed to be getting more focused tone with less effort than usual. And then, disaster. I couldn't get a clear note out, it felt exactly like I was playing false tones all over the horn. With extreme effort I could sort of get a note, and some were better than others, but playing was super painful. I thought it was me but the guy next to me played one note and handed it back shaking his head. It turned out the spit valve cork had picked that moment to shred. Stuffing paper towel in it got me through the rest of the rehearsal.