Loosening Up The Slots

ttf_ntap · Post by **ttf_ntap** » Sun May 21, 2017 9:08 pm

I love the horn I'm on right now, but like many modern horns I've tried, the instrument slots too well at the expense of color/tonal manipulation. Does anyone have any mods that might do the trick? I would think taking the lacquer off one section at a time, or annealing the lead-pipe might give me some options.

I realize this language is so so subjective, so apologies in advance that I may use one word to mean another. "My blue is your green, etc..."

Also please save all the "it's in your head" stuff. If you feel that way about equipment and mods, that's totally fine! Just leave this thread to those who want to discuss it. (Though I'm happy to clarify what I mean about slotting and tonal manipulation)
Curious to hear what others have tried!

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon May 22, 2017 12:50 am

Change the leadpipe. You might need to try a lot of pipes as very few modern pipes have a looser slot. A looser slot can give more control to the advanced player.

Chris Stearn

ttf_ntap · Post by **ttf_ntap** » Mon May 22, 2017 6:01 am

Thanks Chris. I know you mostly play bass, and the horn I'm talking about is a .500 tenor, but do you have any recommendations on pipes? Any ideas what made older pipes looser?

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon May 22, 2017 6:32 am

Quote from: ntap on May 22, 2017, 06:01AMThanks Chris. I know you mostly play bass, and the horn I'm talking about is a .500 tenor, but do you have any recommendations on pipes? Any ideas what made older pipes looser?

You are right, my playing experience is with bass pipes. I would think traditional Conn and Bach pipes have a wider slot in your size. Shorter pipes have a wider slot, but pipe profile is the most important issue. Pipes are very mouthpiece and instrument sensitive and a pipe that is great in one horn is rubbish in another. A visit to Dillon ?
On bass, if I see a pipe at a good price, I buy it. They are pretty cheap and they usually work in an instrument eventually.
I have found that the best test is to take several candidate pipes along to a gig and just go for it ! If one is the right pipe, you kinda know really quick... and also if it's not !!!

Chris Stearn

ttf_Exzaclee · Post by **ttf_Exzaclee** » Mon May 22, 2017 7:22 am

For a .500 bore there's a bunch of options you can try...

I really dig the Benge "S" pipe for what you want - I have one that I got from DJ when I bought my Truitt 2B+. It really opened up the slotting, I used it for a bit but settled on the Nickel W6 pipe for that horn.

The King 2B+ 2 piece pipe will make it feel more 2B+-ish if that's what you want. I like the way Kings seem to mold to the player.

The W6 pipe and the Nickel W6 pipe ( i have both, use the nickel so the brass is for sale if you want that ) give more of a Williams feel to .500 bore horns. On some horns this seems to loosen the slot, on some it seems to lock it a bit. With a Shires, it felt like it made it a bit more unstable but in a good way (less "on rails" feeling.) It locks in the Truitt horn I'm playing though...

One thing you might consider is getting a few .500 pipes of a horn you've liked (conn, bach, king, whatevs) and cut them down in various increments. Like Chris says, a shortened pipe can loosen the slot.

ttf_ntap · Post by **ttf_ntap** » Mon May 22, 2017 12:18 pm

Thanks all! I've reached out to some folks to get some older conn and Bach pipes. Appreciate the thoughts!

ttf_sabutin · Post by **ttf_sabutin** » Mon May 22, 2017 12:53 pm

Yes. Looser slots come from lessened resistance...that's why I play the Shires #3 leadpipes on all of my sub-.547 horns. You have already expeienced the "looseness" of the 11C/6.5-ish Bach twins...it's no coincidence that the two loosest-slotting soloists w/whom I ever played...Bill Watrous and Jimmy Knepper...respectively played an 11C and a 6.5AL. The problem with leadpipes is that they are so damned complicated and expensive to try except at shops or factories where they have a lot of them. And then if you change m'pces? There you are, wondering if the leadpipe you have is right.

Have fun...

S.

P.S. It is too bad that Chuck McAlexander has closed up shop. He had 20-30 or more to try for every common bore horn, ones he copied when working on instruments.. Does anyone know how to contact him? He probably still has them at home.

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Tue May 23, 2017 11:45 am

Depending on the brand, try loosening the spit valve screw a smidgen. On certain configurations of certain brands, that can do the trick.

It worked on one of my horns, even though it might sound odd to some.

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Tue May 23, 2017 1:38 pm

Quote from: ChadA on May 23, 2017, 11:45AMDepending on the brand, try loosening the spit valve screw a smidgen.

Yup.

As to leadpipes, it's about the location and rate and shape of taper as much as it is about the size of the actual venturi. On bass, I'm now playing a Brass Ark MV50, which I think has a smaller venturi than the Shires B2 pipe I was playing, but something about the taper makes it feel more flexible - like the slot is more elastic.

The first time I experimented with leadpipes a long time ago was with Chuck McAlexander. He wouldn't tell me anything about the pipes - just handed me a rack of them and told me to knock myself out. That's really the best way. Thinking you know what you need in dimensions is not nearly as effective as knowing how you want it to feel and then searching until you find that.

ttf_oslide · Post by **ttf_oslide** » Tue May 23, 2017 2:14 pm

Quote from: ChadA on May 23, 2017, 11:45AMDepending on the brand, try loosening the spit valve screw a smidgen.

I haven't the faintest idea why that would work. Can you enlighten me?

Thank you!

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Tue May 23, 2017 3:06 pm

Quote from: oslide on May 23, 2017, 02:14PMI haven't the faintest idea why that would work. Can you enlighten me?

Thank you!

Tension...backing off a screw a quarter turn relieves a little bit of tension. Try it - it might surprise you. And you might find you like it better tightened all the way.

ttf_ChadA · Post by **ttf_ChadA** » Tue May 23, 2017 4:38 pm

Quote from: oslide on May 23, 2017, 02:14PMI haven't the faintest idea why that would work. Can you enlighten me?

Thank you!

What Gabe said.

My tenor is a Getzen 4147IB and Cristan Griego messed with screw to change the slotting a bit at ATW this year. Had I not played it in several different "settings" Cristan did, I wouldn't have believed it. Some trumpet friends of mine mess with the spit valve screw on their Shires trumpets to free things up or tighten them up as needed.

ttf_ntap · Post by **ttf_ntap** » Tue May 23, 2017 5:11 pm

Wow! Very interesting about the screw on the spit valve. I'll have to try that and let you all know how it goes. I have been to Chuck's many times, and have a few of his pipes, actually. In the same vein of what Chris was talking about, it's hard to find what's right without taking them on a gig, especially Chuck's shop used to be a big room with not a lot of carpet to soak up the sound, so naturally everything sounded good.

Sam, last I hard was that Chuck was going to work at a shop on Long Island. I'll have to look up the specifics....

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed May 24, 2017 3:43 am

I've had success putting shires "2" pipes in several horns of varying sizes. 2 is the most common for them so if you try it for awhile and the. Go to a convention to try others you'll be able to better figure out if it's the right one or not..

I've switched all my water keys out for Saturn keys. I don't know how much tension there is in its spring but it seems to be just right for me.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Wed May 24, 2017 3:43 am

I've had success putting shires "2" pipes in several horns of varying sizes. 2 is the most common for them so if you try it for awhile and the. Go to a convention to try others you'll be able to better figure out if it's the right one or not..

I've switched all my water keys out for Saturn keys. I don't know how much tension there is in its spring but it seems to be just right for me.