Mike Olsen ball bearing rotors!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:03 pm

Just received some new Olsen ball bearing rotors. These are preproduction .562. He'll offer more sizes, I assume, very soon.

I'm using one for my beater 42B eventually (this is a back-burner project) when it is revamped.

The rotors are Greenhoe-sized, nice and big. I received two cores per rotor-one vented, one not. The cores run on ball bearings, just like the axials, and spin freely with no lubrication at all.

Another choice out there for a good rotor!

ttf_Emisaumell · Post by **ttf_Emisaumell** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:14 pm

How much was it? Looking into putting an open wrap on my 42b

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:16 pm

I got these at a discount (I won't just say here, not sure if I should). There's limited amounts of the pre-production valves.

I don't know what pricing will be for the production valves.

ttf_daveyboy37 · Post by **ttf_daveyboy37** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:49 am

Nice! How does the service and oiling interval compare to rotors with traditional spindle bearings? I know with the Axial Flow valve, the ceramic and later ball bearings were a pretty big change, as on a standard AF valve there really isn't a bottom bearing, but in the new design there is.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:51 pm

I'm not totally sure. As I said in my original post, there's nothing on them at all and they spin like a perfectly lubed and set-up rotor. I'm sure there has to be a little something in there just so they seal better, but not to make the valve move any better.

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:02 am

I wonder if harmonic vibrations would be an issue? Age and wear might get noticeable. Design would probably fix.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:11 am

Quote from: Whitbey on Jan 12, 2017, 07:02AMI wonder if harmonic vibrations would be an issue? Age and wear might get noticeable. Design would probably fix.

What do you mean?

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:16 am

A sleeve bearing has no single point to contribute to a resonance peak. On a ball bearing there are pivot points where the balls end up logically. But I can't imagine any resonance being in the normal human hearing range, much less the range of frequencies most audible on trombone overtones. But, the rotor body IS kinda like a big fat string between two frets, so in theory it COULD ring...

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:42 am

I haven't heard of such an issue with the ball bearing axials made by the same company.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:03 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 12, 2017, 11:42AMI haven't heard of such an issue with the ball bearing axials made by the same company.

I doubt it's an issue, but the "tone generating body" of an axial is quite different from that of a "traditional."

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:14 pm

I'm confused with what you guys are saying. Do rotors have some harmonic vibrations I'm not aware of? Or is it the ball bearings that would change it? The bearings are very small, as they would have to be in an application this small.

ttf_john sandhagen · Post by **ttf_john sandhagen** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:30 pm

it seems to me that someone wondered about a theoretical question, and it's got you thinking WAY too hard. Like worrying about the the resonance difference between cork and rubber on the rotor stops.

Relax!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:04 pm

Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 12, 2017, 02:30PMit seems to me that someone wondered about a theoretical question, and it's got you thinking WAY too hard. Like worrying about the the resonance difference between cork and rubber on the rotor stops.

Relax!

Thanks, John!

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:32 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Jan 12, 2017, 11:11AMWhat do you mean?

I was thinking small parts that can vibrate free might.

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:43 pm

Quote from: Whitbey on Jan 12, 2017, 04:32PMI was thinking small parts that can vibrate free might.

The bearings are all enclosed, not free floating in the valve.

ttf_greenbean · Post by **ttf_greenbean** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:10 pm

Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 12, 2017, 02:30PMit seems to me that someone wondered about a theoretical question, and it's got you thinking WAY too hard. Like worrying about the the resonance difference between cork and rubber on the rotor stops.

Relax!

Come on, everyone knows cork sounds better!

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:11 pm

Quote from: Whitbey on Jan 12, 2017, 04:32PMI was thinking small parts that can vibrate free might.

I've got a set of Olsen axials - no vibrations whatsoever. Very smooth and fast.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:07 pm

Quote from: john sandhagen on Jan 12, 2017, 02:30PMit seems to me that someone wondered about a theoretical question, and it's got you thinking WAY too hard. Like worrying about the the resonance difference between cork and rubber on the rotor stops.

Relax!

agreed!

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:11 pm

Quote from: Whitbey on Jan 12, 2017, 04:32PMI was thinking small parts that can vibrate free might.

Properly adjusted "loose-ball" bearings don't actually have any loose parts. Sealed bearings actually have a carefully calculated amount of "pre-load" so they behave like optimally adjusted "loose-ball" setups. EITHER will have less tolerance to allow rattling/buzzing than a sleeve bearing. Sleeve bearings with ball-bearing tolerances will not turn.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:04 pm

Hello everyone
I was not going to post anything on this thread as I wanted to say it all in a few weeks when I introduce my newest valves . These were prototype valves that were in the evolution of development that I guess I will probably always be in . As I am a perfectionist. I am always looking for a way to improve my products or process. The bearings that I am now using are a sealed and prelubricated hybrid stainless steel outer with ceramic balls in a class 7 bearing. There are classes that range from one to nine I am told with nine being the best . The higher the class the better that the tollerances are held . Class seven is the best available bearing that I have found so far in this size. With the higher class comes more expense. But as we all know you get what you pay for. I have spun my new valve over 10000 and probably closer to 20000rpm with no oil and have recorded no wear or loss of seal. Try that with any other valve. These valves will out last all of us and much more. Oil is needed with my valves but not for seal or wear. The oil is to fight corrosion,rinse spit ,beer, pretzels ect... That is why so far I recommend the cheap petroleum based desented kerosine oils that have been around forever. The synthetics so far seam to ad sluggishness to my valves do to their tight tollerances and the fact that the synthetics seem to thicken when mixed with saliva. I wish this were not so because the synthetics are great corrosion inhibitors. So far I have some guys using the lightest Hetmin oils. But I still have seen better performance out of the cheap stuff.
As far as my valves not playing up to your standard . I gauranty satisfaction with all my products. I will refund anyone who is not satisfied with my products. I of course cannot refund you for the techs work or extra costs . But will certainly refund my selling price. Or will work with you or your tech in any way I can to get things right.
Thanks
Mike Olsen
Instrument innovations.com

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:36 pm

Thanks, Mike!

Can't wait to try one of these on my 42.

ttf_bonenick · Post by **ttf_bonenick** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:22 am

To a tbone novice like me, please explain how these are different from the traditional rotors

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:15 am

Quote from: bonenick on Jan 14, 2017, 04:22AMTo a tbone novice like me, please explain how these are different from the traditional rotors

Hopefully Mike will clarify the details of his new setup.

To provide you some background, here's a bit about general design of traditional rotors.

Generally, traditional rotors have a two sleeves in the center of the rotor shell, one on each end of the rotor. In theory, the rotor is SUPPOSED to spin in these two sleeves, and NOT actually touch the outer perimeter of the rotor with the inner perimeter of the shell. And, again generally, this is done by machining the sleeve and shell with very slight tapers, then honing the rotor core into the shell.

In practice, some honing is not as careful as other honing. In practice, the sleeve bearing wears over time, especially if the player does not oil the rotor properly (which includes oiling regularly.) So, in practice, the outer perimeter of the rotor DOES touch at least a bit on many horns, especially older ones. When the touching gets too much, the rotor needs to be rebuilt (plated or sleeved and rehoned) or replaced. Sometimes, if the touching is noticed soon enough, the sleeve can be snugged back up with very finicky swedging, and extend the life of the valve.

That should be enough to prepare the way for Mike to explain what is so great with his design. I think I have a pretty good guess already, but that's all it would be. I'm impressed without even knowing the details.

The high revolutions per minute (rpm) are impressive because they magnify any defect in how concentric the shell, outer perimeter of core, and spindle are, and also magnify any out-of-balance condition. For instance, any looseness that might have caused the kind of buzzing that was asked about before would NOT let a rotor spin this fast; the bearing would self destruct. I'm pretty sure trying to spin MY old rotors over a couple hundred RPM inside the case would damage them enough to need rebuilding!

Don't be misled by my comments or others about hypothetical vibration possibilities: the REAL physics of what Mike is doing have far more tangible benefits than these other effects could possibly have. Having assisted in the rebuilding of a few french horn rotors, I'm very impressed with what Mike is doing!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:15 am

Thanks Dave
Nice job. I have been doing this for forty one years my father before me and grandfather before him. So I have seen a lot but will never claim to know it all. I learn new things every day and hope to until the day I die. I have great respect from people before me and people like the techs that I work with. Along with the many artists .
One of the ways that I have progressed in the industry is to not only use new technology but uderstand old ways of doing things and then apply the newer technology in ways to make things better and solve issues that occur and create problems . I have also worked with many different designers companies and artists over the years to get ideas and insight as to how I might make a difference. I am very blessed to have been given all this and intend to pay it forward . Unfortunately I am not a brass instrument player but I have had music in my life instilled by my grandfather at an early age. I try to use this to my advantage and listen to the many theory's and try to uderstand the many different ways of making the best possible outcome for both the instrument the player and the manufacturering process.
As to my newest valves. I have removed the taper in the end spindales that the valve rides on and replaced them with a precision fitted bearing. These bearings are rated to run continuously at thirty thousand rpm so wear will not be an issue.the outside diameter of the rotor and inside diameter of the casing are straight. The old way of using tapers allowed the manufacturer as well as the tech to fit the valve to the tight tollerances that need to be there to seal properly and preform. However depending on how well it went through the process would effect its longevity. Using oil was a must to reduce wear and to help seal as it would wear . Thicker oil would allow some longevity but would only extend life and mask production variances for a period of time. My valves do not make metal to metal contact do to the bearings. They are however subject to corrosion and need oil for corrosion resistance.
You must understand even with today's technology it is very difficult to machine these valves and hold let alone measure and fit these valves together . I have been told I should be charging much more for them . I will talk about my new venting later.
Thank all of you for your support.
Mike Olsen
Instrumentinnovations.com

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:30 pm

Mike,

Do you know if anyone has done any testing to see if ultrasonic cleaning has any effect on infiltration of stuff into/out of the sealed units? On bicycles taking a bike from a warm house out to ride in freezing weather causes junk to get sucked into the "sealed" units, reducing their life expectancy. These ceramic-based units should last over 100 years in trombone use, as long as the metal around them is properly oiled and protected from corrosion. With that kind of durability, I would think the only real risk would be any aggressive cleaning that could violate the seals.

If I were at the other end of my playing time, I'd sure want THESE on my horns!
Thanks for the great notes!

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:47 pm

Thanks for the inquiry
I often use my sonic in assembly of my valves . But the only chemical I use is a weak mixture of Dawn dishwashing liquid and water. I have not seen any problems. The bearings on my newest valves are in the removable bearing plates and are easily removed from those. So I don't see an issue for chemical cleaning . Just remove the bearings. If someone were to actually somehow damage the bearings I could easily send them one to replace it. So I really don't see this as a problem with my newest valves. As you will see when I introduce them with pics.
Thank you
Mike

ttf_Whitbey · Post by **ttf_Whitbey** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:13 pm

Quote from: MOKO on Jan 13, 2017, 08:04PMHello everyone
I was not going to post anything on this thread as I wanted to say it all in a few weeks when I introduce my newest valves . These were prototype valves that were in the evolution of development that I guess I will probably always be in . As I am a perfectionist. I am always looking for a way to improve my products or process. The bearings that I am now using are a sealed and prelubricated hybrid stainless steel outer with ceramic balls in a class 7 bearing. There are classes that range from one to nine I am told with nine being the best . The higher the class the better that the tollerances are held . Class seven is the best available bearing that I have found so far in this size. With the higher class comes more expense. But as we all know you get what you pay for. I have spun my new valve over 10000 and probably closer to 20000rpm with no oil and have recorded no wear or loss of seal. Try that with any other valve. These valves will out last all of us and much more. Oil is needed with my valves but not for seal or wear. The oil is to fight corrosion,rinse spit ,beer, pretzels ect... That is why so far I recommend the cheap petroleum based desented kerosine oils that have been around forever. The synthetics so far seam to ad sluggishness to my valves do to their tight tollerances and the fact that the synthetics seem to thicken when mixed with saliva. I wish this were not so because the synthetics are great corrosion inhibitors. So far I have some guys using the lightest Hetmin oils. But I still have seen better performance out of the cheap stuff.
As far as my valves not playing up to your standard . I gauranty satisfaction with all my products. I will refund anyone who is not satisfied with my products. I of course cannot refund you for the techs work or extra costs . But will certainly refund my selling price. Or will work with you or your tech in any way I can to get things right.
Thanks
Mike Olsen
Instrument innovations.com

Impressive!

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:44 pm

Quote from: MOKO on Jan 14, 2017, 02:47PMThanks for the inquiry
I often use my sonic in assembly of my valves . But the only chemical I use is a weak mixture of Dawn dishwashing liquid and water. I have not seen any problems. The bearings on my newest valves are in the removable bearing plates and are easily removed from those. So I don't see an issue for chemical cleaning . Just remove the bearings. If someone were to actually somehow damage the bearings I could easily send them one to replace it. So I really don't see this as a problem with my newest valves. As you will see when I introduce them with pics.
Thank you
Mike

Outstanding! My hat is off to you all the way around on this design! Looking forward to your pictures!!

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:50 pm

I'm one of the few folks with Olsen axial valves using Hetman's - I can't stand the petroleum based stuff at all. So far so good using Hetman's #1 light piston oil. I oil them once a week just a few drops in each valve and have been doing so for about a month or so and no detectable sluggishness. That's not quite a long-term test, though.

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:36 pm

Thanks Tim
Please keep me posted. That is good news.
Mike

ttf_Slipmo · Post by **ttf_Slipmo** » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:20 pm

Mike, you're a class act! Thanks for your great products for our community.

ttf_tbathras · Post by **ttf_tbathras** » Sun May 07, 2017 7:26 am

Quote from: MOKO on Jan 14, 2017, 06:36PMThanks Tim
Please keep me posted. That is good news.
Mike

Here we are 4 months later (5 months total) and the valves are still quick as day one.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Mon May 08, 2017 4:51 am

Has anyone put these on a bass trombone?? If so please share.

ttf_John Thomas · Post by **ttf_John Thomas** » Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:57 am

BurgerBob/Aidan,
Have you had one of these put on your 42b yet?

If so, how is it? I always enjoy your reviews and perspective on how new or modified trombones perform.

I am looking at having a new rotor put on my Eric Swanson modified corporation 42b. The horn/slide are still great but the valve after all these years is clanky and loud. This Olsen rotor valve looks very interesting and I would appreciate your feedback if you have had one of these put on your 42b.

Thanks,

John

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:57 pm

Benn is currently doing this conversion. Hopefully he's taking pictures! Can't wait to get the horn.

ttf_John Thomas · Post by **ttf_John Thomas** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:52 am

Any news or pictures yet?

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:55 pm

Not as yet! I won't be able to get until mid-August so I'm not holding my breath.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:51 pm

Quote from: John Thomas on Jul 16, 2017, 11:57AMBurgerBob/Aidan,
Have you had one of these put on your 42b yet?

If so, how is it? I always enjoy your reviews and perspective on how new or modified trombones perform.

I am looking at having a new rotor put on my Eric Swanson modified corporation 42b. The horn/slide are still great but the valve after all these years is clanky and loud. This Olsen rotor valve looks very interesting and I would appreciate your feedback if you have had one of these put on your 42b.

Thanks,

John

Clanky and loud can be fixed. Unless you just want a new valve.

ttf_John Thomas · Post by **ttf_John Thomas** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:46 am

You are correct and I have two of the best trombone repair people in my area for that. I am interested in what improvement the new Olsen rotary valve may make in a 42b similar to mine might make.

ttf_bonearzt · Post by **ttf_bonearzt** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:18 am

IMHO, these valves take an already good valve section & horn up a couple of levels. They are on par with Rotax/Hagmann/Tru-Bore/Greenhoe, etc....

Another positive aspect is that when a new rotor is installed, especially on my bench, the entire valve section is rebuilt which ensures a carefully assembled bell with no stress and correctly fitting ferrules & joints.
And THIS is what makes a horn play incredibly well!! Everything is solid & connected to resonate as a unit!

Also, with his new valve, he has incorporated an internal venting system that actually works to prevent the "puff" when you engage the valve as you are playing!!

Anything else?

Eric

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:52 am

Quote from: John Thomas on Jul 26, 2017, 06:46AMYou are correct and I have two of the best trombone repair people in my area for that. I am interested in what improvement the new Olsen rotary valve may make in a 42b similar to mine might make.

Quote from: bonearzt on Jul 26, 2017, 08:18AMIMHO, these valves take an already good valve section & horn up a couple of levels. They are on par with Rotax/Hagmann/Tru-Bore/Greenhoe, etc....

Another positive aspect is that when a new rotor is installed, especially on my bench, the entire valve section is rebuilt which ensures a carefully assembled bell with no stress and correctly fitting ferrules & joints.
And THIS is what makes a horn play incredibly well!! Everything is solid & connected to resonate as a unit!

Also, with his new valve, he has incorporated an internal venting system that actually works to prevent the "puff" when you engage the valve as you are playing!!

Anything else?

Eric

ttf_John Thomas · Post by **ttf_John Thomas** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:40 am

Eric,

Thanks for your input. This is the information I am looking for. I will contact you in the next few days to visit about this.

My horn already has an open wrap and convertible bell that Eric Swanson did for me in the mid-80's.

John

ttf_John Thomas · Post by **ttf_John Thomas** » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:40 am

Eric,

Thanks for your input. This is the information I am looking for. I will contact you in the next few days to visit about this.

My horn already has an open wrap and convertible bell that Eric Swanson did for me in the mid-80's.

John