Converting a Bach 34B to a 34C?

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:21 am

Hi all. I got a Bach 34B about a year ago, and I love it! However, I hate the weight. The thing is a tank! I contacted Brad Close about making a straight neckpipe for it, and being able to play it with or without the F attachment. He gave me a quote, fair price.

My question, have any of you guys had this done? If so, how did it affect the playability of the horn? Would you do it again?

It seems having it a convertible wouldnt be bad - look at Shires, Rath, and Edwards. Plus, I only need the F attachment for about 20% of my playing. It would be nice to not have the extra weight.

Thanks,

Jerry Walker

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:31 am

I've been going the opposite directions. Adding valves to everything I can. I don't mind the weight. But after I make a horn convertible I normally find it plays better regardless. Possibly because any tension on the solder points is removed in the process. YMMV, I haven't done it to an older horn like that but it's one of the few things I would consider doing to a Mt. Vernon.

ttf_Michael Medrick · Post by **ttf_Michael Medrick** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:38 am

+1 on destressing Horns by getting rid of the solder points. My Bach 36 and 50 Trombones are now convertible and seem to me to have better response.

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:34 am

I had Brad Close give me an estimate, and the price was very fair. Looking at pictures of his work, it's impressive.

However, if I can find someone not too far from the Tampa Bay Area who does exceptional custom work, I'd rather do that than ship my horn cross country. Any recommendations for Florida? A six hour drive would be preferable to shipping my horn.

Thanks,

Jerry Walker

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:42 am

I would suspect that the parts for a straight neckpipe on a 36C would work. You need to put new ferrules (with thumbscrews) on the bell and an extra brace on the F-attachment part. I believe the F-attachment tubing is soldered to the bell so that has to be removed.

Good luck.

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:47 am

I'd probably go with OE Thayer parts if you can get your hands on them. Really quite sturdy and I find them preferable to the Bach style wingnuts.

ttf_NBee · Post by **ttf_NBee** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:09 am

If you havent done this yet Id like to offer my suggestion.

I just had my bach 42s refurbished. I had a 42B, LT42GT, and a Bach neck pipe with the Bach clamp system that didnt fit together. When I was talking with my tech about doing a conversion job, he said the Bach clamps were cheaper and vibrated better because more of the post was covered. I did this old style Bach conversion and Ill be the first to say do it. The O.E. Thayer hardware is good, but it is more expensive and the braces tend to be thicker to support the nut for the main braces.

As far as playability goes, all possible combinations play extremely well. The idea with a convertible trombone is the playability isnt effected by the fact it is convertible, but rather you get the playability of a straight or f attachment trombone without owning multiple Bell sections. If the playability is affected by the fact there is a conversion, it was most likely done improperly.

I also happen to own a 34 and it has not been converted yet. The only reason is simply funding. But that will be a future project of mine and I highly recommend it if youre looking for that kind of flexibility.

On a personal note, I was in a very similar situation to you. I didnt really need an f attachment even on my 42. Why big down your shoulder right? Plus its convenient to have access to different textures.

If youre going to do the conversion, I would do it that way. Again, just had what you want done built for me and its fantastic.

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:14 am

Quote from: NBee on Jan 29, 2018, 09:09AMIf you havent done this yet Id like to offer my suggestion.

I just had my bach 42s refurbished. I had a 42B, LT42GT, and a Bach neck pipe with the Bach clamp system that didnt fit together. When I was talking with my tech about doing a conversion job, he said the Bach clamps were cheaper and vibrated better because more of the post was covered. I did this old style Bach conversion and Ill be the first to say do it. The O.E. Thayer hardware is good, but it is more expensive and the braces tend to be thicker to support the nut for the main braces.

As far as playability goes, all possible combinations play extremely well. The idea with a convertible trombone is the playability isnt effected by the fact it is convertible, but rather you get the playability of a straight or f attachment trombone without owning multiple Bell sections. If the playability is affected by the fact there is a conversion, it was most likely done improperly.

I also happen to own a 34 and it has not been converted yet. The only reason is simply funding. But that will be a future project of mine and I highly recommend it if youre looking for that kind of flexibility.

On a personal note, I was in a very similar situation to you. I didnt really need an f attachment even on my 42. Why big down your shoulder right? Plus its convenient to have access to different textures.

If youre going to do the conversion, I would do it that way. Again, just had what you want done built for me and its fantastic.

No, I haven't done it yet, and your input is extremely helpful. I just need to either find someone close, or ship it to Brad.

Thanks,

Jerry Walker

ttf_NBee · Post by **ttf_NBee** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:16 am

Ha. I didnt see you posted that today. I should read more...

ttf_Blowero · Post by **ttf_Blowero** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:32 am

O.E. Thayer brace parts are actually very reasonably priced and fairly easy to obtain. I don't know what techs are in your area. You might try searching the forum; I'm sure that has been discussed before.

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:38 am

Quote from: Blowero on Jan 29, 2018, 09:32AMO.E. Thayer brace parts are actually very reasonably priced and fairly easy to obtain. I don't know what techs are in your area. You might try searching the forum; I'm sure that has been discussed before.

I got a quote from you a while back for this. The pictures of your work are great! Just hoping to not have to ship my horn from Florida to California.

Thanks,

Jerry Walker

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:53 am

Quote When I was talking with my tech about doing a conversion job, he said the Bach clamps were cheaper and vibrated better because more of the post was covered.
Not sure what having the post being 'covered' has to do with sound. The clamps have to, well, clamp down on the post to keep it in place. If anything I'd imagine the more surface area clamped down on to keep in place the opposite would be the case. Though I wouldn't be dogmatic on that point as I don't really notice much of a difference with the Bullet brace and some find that to have a negative influence on the sound... much less those who find the leather grips to have a negative influence on sound and those are only adding enough tension to keep the leather applied to it which is basically nothing.

Also fwiw, I can't imagine any Bach part being cheap but if that is the case then they may be multiples of eachother but still cheap in an absolute sense. I believe the last tiem I ordered OE Thayer parts it was less than $20 for two nuts and the associated parts to get it to fit together.

ttf_Dukesboneman · Post by **ttf_Dukesboneman** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:32 pm

or

http://www.thebrass-exchange.com/catalog/bach-34-early-mt-vernon-ny-1953-medium-bore

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:04 pm

Quote from: Dukesboneman on Jan 30, 2018, 01:32PMor

http://www.thebrass-exchange.com/catalog/bach-34-early-mt-vernon-ny-1953-medium-bore

Thanks, Dave.

However, the conversion will be a lot less than $2,000, and the slide on this one is .525, not .522.

Kind of defeats the whole purpose of the 34, huh?

Now, if they would just sell me the bell..............

Jerry

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:39 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Jan 29, 2018, 08:42AMI would suspect that the parts for a straight neckpipe on a 36C would work. You need to put new ferrules (with thumbscrews) on the bell and an extra brace on the F-attachment part. I believe the F-attachment tubing is soldered to the bell so that has to be removed.

Good luck.

Thanks, Bruce. Ill look into that. Makes sense the parts would work, and the tech wouldnt have to fabricate a new neckpipe.

Jerry

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:09 pm

Quote from: Driswood on Jan 30, 2018, 02:04PMThanks, Dave.

However, the conversion will be a lot less than $2,000, and the slide on this one is .525, not .522.

Kind of defeats the whole purpose of the 34, huh?

Now, if they would just sell me the bell..............

Jerry
0.003. The thickness of a piece of paper. Cut it in half on the thickness, and wrap it around the slide tube.

The difference between the 34 and 36 is mostly the bell mandrel, the .003 is nothing. I forget about the lead pipe, need to check the shop cards.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:32 am

Quote from: elmsandr on Feb 01, 2018, 05:09PM0.003. The thickness of a piece of paper. Cut it in half on the thickness, and wrap it around the slide tube.

The difference between the 34 and 36 is mostly the bell mandrel, the .003 is nothing. I forget about the lead pipe, need to check the shop cards.

Cheers,
Andy

I know the difference in the bells, with the 34 having a narrower bell stem. Would .003 the entire length of the slide make a difference? If not, why make the 34 with a .522 bore to start with? Bach could have used the 34 bell with the 36 slide, saving money. Its my understanding Vincent Bach used as many universal parts as possible, to save money. I assume thats why the models 6 through 36 use the same bell/slide tenon connectors.

I would be interested to know the difference between the two lead pipes.

I know youre very knowledgeable on Bach history, so if anyone here knows the skinny on this, it would be you.

Thanks,

Jerry Walker

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:54 am

There is probably at least .003" of debris in your horn at the moment. They probably had some kind of tooling or access to parts that made it financially viable. Or they just mislabeled it, has a tech measured the tube?

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:16 am

Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 08:54 AMThere is probably at least .003" of debris in your horn at the moment. They probably had some kind of tooling or access to parts that made it financially viable. Or they just mislabeled it, has a tech measured the tube?

The 34 is a different critter than the 36. The 36 has a .525 bore, the 34 has a .522 bore. The bell has a narrower bell stem, made on a different mandrel than the 36. I heven't measured my slide, but since it was made in 1965, and I bought it from the original purchaser, I know mine is stock. So it's not debris, it's the actual size of the slide tubes.

Here's what Erling Kroner said about the 34 here on the Forum, April 17, 2010:

"Yep the Palmer Traulsen model. Palmer told me so himself. Suggested to old Vincent Bach that he (Vincent) made a more suited for commercial work 36, which eventually became the 34. (Palmer blew a 36B at the symphony and used a King 3B for commercial work (like big band, sweet, non-legit music). I've played Bach 36 since 1970 (have a fantastic MtVernon) and a year and a half ago came across a slightly older, beaten up MtVernon 34 (they were only made at the MtVernon factory, not the prior New York or later Elkhart factory. Not popular? Never caught on in its time and was only made for a few years. The 34 I have now - rare bird with a red brass slide, the original of course - is a fantastic player. Have been breakin' it in and left the 36 to cry in a corner of my basement studio. It showed a lot of promise from the onset but had a couple of quirky spots - like hi C in 1st on out not singing like supposed to. But now they are coming along just fine. Is VERY close to being as great as my 36. Slide is, as said above .522 as opposed to the .525 of the 36. And bell - contrary to popular belief - is NOT 'just a 36 bell with different marking, it is a different mandrel with a different taper, slimmer - hardly noticeable to the naked eye. Feels and plays like my 36, but with just a hair more zing - almost CONN 6H like - and therefore is very usable as a lead horn. As a solo (imp) horn it is as fast and clean articulation wise as the 36, outplays (for me) in that respect my previous CONN 6H's.
Now that I've (finally) gotten the 34 to the point where I want it, I'll be getting back on board my 36 and intend to use them interchangeably. I'm basically a one-horn-man, but these two birds I think I can swap.
As for mouth piece I've always used a (MtVernon) 12c that I think has been opened up by Palmer, from whom I got it in 1963. Palmer himself used a Bach 12c for classical and commercial music. Beautiful sound with lotsa power (he could get out of it). That was before the big mouthpiece epidemic. But a 6.5 AL like Jimmy Knepper used (and I for about 5 years) with his 36 works very well as will an 11c or even a 7c (individual choice - take your pick).
Hope this helps.
erling"

Here's the link to the thread:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,51072.msg718810.html#msg718810

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:19 am

Quote from: Matt K on Yesterday at 08:54 AM........Or they just mislabeled it, has a tech measured the tube?

From the same thread. I highlighted the specs on the 34

MODEL NO. BORE (in.) BELL (in.) VALVE(S) REMARKS
BACH
Stradivarius 4 .468/.485 7.5 Dual bore.
Stradivarius 6 .485 7.5
Stradivarius 8 .490 7.5
Stradivarius 12 .500 7.5
Stradivarius 16 .495/.509 7.5 Dual bore.
Stradivarius LT16M .509 7.5 Lightweight slide.
Stradivarius 34 .522 8
Stradivarius 34B .522 8 F
Stradivarius 36 .525 8
Stradivarius 36B .525 8 F
Stradivarius 36BO .525 8 F
Stradivarius 36K .525 8 F Balanced valve design.
Stradivarius 36C .525 8 F Removable F section.
Stradivarius 36CO .525 8 F

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:50 am

The bores are different. Well, at least the inners are. I don't have a 36 to compare anymore, but I've always wondered if Bach used the same outers. I would have. To me this always sounded like somebody begged V.B. to make the different size and he did, because, well... money.

Checked some shop cards that I have, both the 36 and the 34 share the 414 mouthpipe.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_Matt K · Post by **ttf_Matt K** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:44 am

Right, what I'm saying it is possible that the catalog is wrong. Either way, at the end of the day it sounds like there are perhaps more components different on the 34 vs. the 36 than the 36 vs. the 42. I think Andy is right, you are really not likely to notice a difference between a .522 and a .525 tube in a practical playing situation.

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:17 pm

Quote from: elmsandr on Yesterday at 09:50 AMThe bores are different. Well, at least the inners are. I don't have a 36 to compare anymore, but I've always wondered if Bach used the same outers. I would have. To me this always sounded like somebody begged V.B. to make the different size and he did, because, well... money.

Checked some shop cards that I have, both the 36 and the 34 share the 414 mouthpipe.

Cheers,
Andy

Makes sense . Make the stocking larger so the same outers work on the 34 & 36, like the upper leg of a 2B inner. Now Im curious . Think Ill try my 34 outer slide on a 36 inner . See if they fit together .

Jerry Walker

ttf_elmsandr · Post by **ttf_elmsandr** » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:52 pm

Quote from: Driswood on Yesterday at 02:17 PMMakes sense . Make the stocking larger so the same outers work on the 34 & 36, like the upper leg of a 2B inner. Now Im curious . Think Ill try my 34 outer slide on a 36 inner . See if they fit together .

Jerry Walker
Whispers: I dont think youd even have to make the stocking larger for 0.003. Or, since drawing the stocking OD is a separate step, just use the same die.

Cheers,
Andy

ttf_John McKevitt · Post by **ttf_John McKevitt** » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:06 am

Mark Adams at All County Music in Tamarac FL
Just West of Ft Lauderdale
954 722 3424
He is an excellent Repair Tech/ Artist
and enjoys doing this type of Custom Work
He has pulled Leadpipes for me , Open wrapped Valve sections
Converted 36B's to Straight Tenors, Modified My Mirafone Contrabass for me,
and lots of other custom and standard repair work.
Maybe there is someone in Orlando or Sarasota who could help you, if there is no one in the Tampa Bay area you trust
Good Luck

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:28 am

Quote from: John McKevitt on Today at 01:06 AMMark Adams at All County Music in Tamarac FL
Just West of Ft Lauderdale
954 722 3424
He is an excellent Repair Tech/ Artist
and enjoys doing this type of Custom Work
He has pulled Leadpipes for me , Open wrapped Valve sections
Converted 36B's to Straight Tenors, Modified My Mirafone Contrabass for me,
and lots of other custom and standard repair work.
Maybe there is someone in Orlando or Sarasota who could help you, if there is no one in the Tampa Bay area you trust
Good Luck

Thanks! Ill call him.

Jerry Walker

ttf_NBee · Post by **ttf_NBee** » Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:54 pm

Quote from: elmsandr on Yesterday at 09:50 AMThe bores are different. Well, at least the inners are. I don't have a 36 to compare anymore, but I've always wondered if Bach used the same outers.

Funny you say that. I went to see Doug Elliott to get a mouthpiece for my 34. He had a 36 out and we tried that. The 36 outers fit the 34 inners a visa versa.

The 34 is an awesome symphony horn as well as a good 3rd bone horn for a big band. Funny enough, Bach did make a few 34's into the early Corp era, and there was one up on eBay not that long ago stamped with the Elkhart, IN USA stamp. I'm waiting to hear back from Bach on some shop cards to see what the difference is between a friend's 36 and my 34. I know the mouth pipe taper is akin to an Old's medium bore shank. The Morris taper shank sinks too far in.

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:16 pm

Quote from: NBee on Today at 01:54 PM
Funny you say that. I went to see Doug Elliott to get a mouthpiece for my 34. He had a 36 out and we tried that. The 36 outers fit the 34 inners a visa versa.

The 34 is an awesome symphony horn as well as a good 3rd bone horn for a big band. Funny enough, Bach did make a few 34's into the early Corp era, and there was one up on eBay not that long ago stamped with the Elkhart, IN USA stamp. I'm waiting to hear back from Bach on some shop cards to see what the difference is between a friend's 36 and my 34. I know the mouth pipe taper is akin to an Old's medium bore shank. The Morris taper shank sinks too far in.

My 34 has Elkhart on the bell, and serial number puts it at 1965. Number is 83XX, so mine is one of them, the first ones made in Elkhart. The trigger assembly is the Mt Vernon style trigger, not the Elkhart. I think my horn is made from Mt Vernon parts.

Switching the slides confirms the outers are the same.

Jerry Walker

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:34 pm

Quote from: elmsandr on Yesterday at 09:50 AMTo me this always sounded like somebody begged V.B. to make the different size and he did, because, well... money.

Palmer Traulsen from the Danish Symphony. Check my post above.

Jerry Walker

ttf_Driswood · Post by **ttf_Driswood** » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:34 pm

Quote from: elmsandr on Yesterday at 09:50 AMTo me this always sounded like somebody begged V.B. to make the different size and he did, because, well... money.

Palmer Traulsen from the Danish Symphony. Check my post above.

Jerry Walker