Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

[ttf_sfboner]

I'm not sure if I've seen mention on the Griego 2.  It wasn't for me, but some people (Lorna McDonald for example) sound great on it.

If we are counting the Greg Black 1 3/8G then I'm now in the 1 1/2G club as well.  Mine also is from Zach and has a modified throat.  I'm not sure that it will be my endpoint, but it's working well so far.

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

For me a DE 109 is out of my idea of the 1 and 1/2G size by a little. The G Black 1 and 3/8 is too big as well.

[ttf_sfboner]

I wouldn't have counted it either, but it got a couple mentions above.

[ttf_tbathras]

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Mar 22, 2016, 11:26AMFor me a DE 109 is out of my idea of the 1 and 1/2G size by a little. The G Black 1 and 3/8 is too big as well.

That was my initial thought - I think 1.06/1.07 is more of the 1-1/2G rim size. 

The MB109, Wick 0AL and BG 1-3/8 seem to be to be between a Bach 1-1/2 and 1-1/4

[ttf_HouBassTrombone]

For me they are larger but not but a huge amount. Closer to a 1 1/2G than a 1 1/4G. Also... lot of variance in the Bachs.

[ttf_MoominDave]

I wouldn't ever bracket the Bach 1-1/2G and the Wick 0AL together. 0AL is like a 1-1/4 rim with a 1 cup. Totally different beasts.

[ttf_The Bone Ranger]

As much as anything, this decade-old thread now shows the journey many of us have been on while searching for equipment to make our job easier.

Here's a small snippet from the very first post in this thread, about a Mt Vernon 1.5G, just over a decade ago!!

Quote from: blast on Mar 09, 2006, 12:49PMIt's not a starter mouthpiece...
It's a finisher mouthpiece.

Chris is now playing a mouthpiece (or at least a rim) that's bigger than nearly anyone on this forum!

My, how the time moves quickly, and how we make some interesting turns along the way!

A quick glance through this thread reveals my own mouthpiece journey; not happy with 1.25-sized pieces, spent a year on a 1.5G, went back to a 1.25, and then pretty quickly onto some big rims.

I haven't moved from the big rims in the last 7 years or so. A Laskey 93D for about 5 years, and a Greg Black 1GM for the last two or so. I can't see that I'll ever move to anything smaller ever again, but who knows? Check this thread in ten years time!

The last time I played a 1.5G? I was booked, last minute, to play "trombone" for an Elvis gig. Showed up with my large bore tenor (hedging my bets since I hadn't seen the book), and guess what? It's the perfect bass trombone book! Lucky my Greg Black 1.5GM lives in the tenor case for just an emergency! And frankly, the sound of that combination, in that style, was pretty much perfect anyway!

Enjoy your journey!

Andrew

[ttf_savio]

I want to discuss a little more about the mouthpieces where George Roberts did end the deal with the mouthpiece maker.

"His mouthpieces were copied by a small shop in L.A. in probably the 1980's.. they were stamped 'George Roberts' and marked NY, MV, SE, CE and SO... no prizes for working out what the letters stand for. George told me that he was ripped off by the copyist and never saw a cent for the designs."

I have one of them named MV. And of all George Roberts mouthpieces I have tried out there, this one is the best. I wonder if anyone still have it and use it? Someone told its more like a 2g size, but I have to disagree. Some say the Bach MT Vernon was bigger than most other 1.5 mouthpieces but that is not the truth either. They are all different in size. 

The only thing I see is common on all MT Vernon mouthpieces is they all have a much more "ball" figure in the cup than any other design. Also the copies. Except the MV which also have that "ball" form inside the cup.



Leif

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: The Bone Ranger on Mar 22, 2016, 04:22PMAs much as anything, this decade-old thread now shows the journey many of us have been on while searching for equipment to make our job easier.

Here's a small snippet from the very first post in this thread, about a Mt Vernon 1.5G, just over a decade ago!!

Chris is now playing a mouthpiece (or at least a rim) that's bigger than nearly anyone on this forum!

My, how the time moves quickly, and how we make some interesting turns along the way!

A quick glance through this thread reveals my own mouthpiece journey; not happy with 1.25-sized pieces, spent a year on a 1.5G, went back to a 1.25, and then pretty quickly onto some big rims.

I haven't moved from the big rims in the last 7 years or so. A Laskey 93D for about 5 years, and a Greg Black 1GM for the last two or so. I can't see that I'll ever move to anything smaller ever again, but who knows? Check this thread in ten years time!

The last time I played a 1.5G? I was booked, last minute, to play "trombone" for an Elvis gig. Showed up with my large bore tenor (hedging my bets since I hadn't seen the book), and guess what? It's the perfect bass trombone book! Lucky my Greg Black 1.5GM lives in the tenor case for just an emergency! And frankly, the sound of that combination, in that style, was pretty much perfect anyway!

Enjoy your journey!

Andrew

You are , of course right... but that is my face and where it is now... I wish the 1 1/2G was easier than the bucket for me, but it is not... very odd, I know... FYI it is the Elliott 116 M, M8 at the moment.
Life is odd...

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: blast on Apr 08, 2016, 02:31PM I wish the 1 1/2G was easier than the bucket for me, but it is not...

Why do you wish that? 

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: Dan Hine on Apr 08, 2016, 02:44PMWhy do you wish that? 

Because it makes the sound I want to make.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: blast on Apr 08, 2016, 03:25PMBecause it makes the sound I want to make.

Ok.  That's what I thought you meant but I often read advice on here about going with the mouthpiece (or any equipment in general) that makes it easier for you to make the sound in your head.

So, it seems you are going for the equipment that makes it easier for you to do the work, even if you don't prefer the quality* of that work?

* Quality as defined as: a characteristic or feature that someone or something has

 

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: DogBone35 on Mar 09, 2006, 02:40PMGreat post.  Too bad it's going to disappear shortly when the new forum comes up.  Chris, why don't you save a copy and repost this after the new forum is up and running?

P.S.  I also play a Bach 1.5G on my bass


Hahahahaa!!!!! Third or fourth post on this thread. Dated 2006.

[ttf_savio]

Quote from: Dan Hine on Apr 08, 2016, 03:33PMOk.  That's what I thought you meant but I often read advice on here about going with the mouthpiece (or any equipment in general) that makes it easier for you to make the sound in your head.

So, it seems you are going for the equipment that makes it easier for you to do the work, even if you don't prefer the quality* of that work?

* Quality as defined as: a characteristic or feature that someone or something has

 

Before going on, I want to answer Dan Hine in another tread......

Leif

[ttf_BGuttman]

I think Chris has been at this long enough to know what he wants to sound like.  He also has kept his job, so what he wants to sound like apparently is what the people paying for his services want him to sound like.

If that means playing a Bach 25 tuba mouthpiece or a 12C, as long as he gets the sound he needs that's what has to happen.

Most of us do well on a 1 1/2G, thankyouverymuch.  It is a bass trombone standard for a reason.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 08, 2016, 06:33PMI think Chris has been at this long enough to know what he wants to sound like. 

I'm absolutely certain you are right.  My post(s) had no malicious or snarky intent behind them.  I don't think there was anything wrong with me asking for clarification.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 08, 2016, 06:33PMso what he wants to sound like apparently is what the people paying for his services want him to sound like.


Well, from his responses it seems more like what he chooses to sound like is different from what he wants to sound like.  Again, that's why I asked.

[ttf_GetzenBassPlayer]

Age is a journey. During his interview with Michael Davis, Charles Vernon lamented the fact that he had to double tongue parts he used to easily single tongue. We do what we must do. Sometimes I think, 'The sound in my head', is the icing on the cake that comes after the the other things like in time, in tune,  with acceptable articulation and clarity.

[ttf_sfboner]

It seems to me that Dan has asked a fair and respectful question.  Chris has stated that his current mouthpiece choice involves some degree of compromise (I suspect it is only a very small degree).  Compromise is a topic on which it is very interesting and educational to hear the words of an experienced, highly successful player.  Everything we do constitutes some kind of compromise or other.

[ttf_svenlarsson]

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 08, 2016, 06:33PMI think Chris has been at this long enough to know what he wants to sound like. 

Most of us do well on a 1 1/2G, thankyouverymuch.  It is a bass trombone standard for a reason.
       When I went from tenor to bass 1969 all bass players played 1 1/2G in Sweden. Today everybody play 1 1/4G or bigger, most of them bigger. In 1969 many tenor players played 12 c even in orchestras, today 7c is a small alto piece. Modern Europeans have big mouths?

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: sfboner on Apr 08, 2016, 09:47PMIt seems to me that Dan has asked a fair and respectful question.  Chris has stated that his current mouthpiece choice involves some degree of compromise (I suspect it is only a very small degree).  Compromise is a topic on which it is very interesting and educational to hear the words of an experienced, highly successful player.  Everything we do constitutes some kind of compromise or other.

Yes, I took Dan's question as fair and respectful. It also is probably of some interest to younger players trying to develop a sound and people that play for fun and want to do it well. Sound ideals can change and we all try to fit in with modern concepts to an extent, but my primary drive is to try and play in tune, in time and with a sound that works in the job I do. When I changed onto big gear a few years back, it was because I had some contra work coming up and hoped that I might get away with using an almost contra size mouthpiece on bass for a week or two.... well, when I switched, nobody noticed (all Elliott stuff) and playing life got easier... so I stuck with it. I can hear a difference here and there, but to others, I just sound like me... so it is a small thing. There are times when you think about where your sound is... listening to recordings, and listening to other players. I recently was on the judging panel for one of the ITF competitions which involved me listening to thirty recorded performances. I found it quite disturbing that so many young players were obviously playing on equipment they could not handle... big woofy sounds, unstable, hollow tone and poor intonation.... where did they get those ideas from ? The best players were more compact and stable... and MADE MUSIC. I made a mental note to keep an ear out so as not to fall into any of those traps myself. I still have the 1 1/2G in my head, just not on my face at the moment.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_svenlarsson]

" big woofy sounds, unstable, hollow tone and poor intonation" yes that is pretty common nowadays.....

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 09, 2016, 02:05AM" big woofy sounds, unstable, hollow tone and poor intonation" yes that is pretty common nowadays.....

It is, and I think it is partly about young people buying and playing instruments designed to work in big orchestras playing in big halls, and teachers who have never worked in professional ensembles perpetuating myths about sound that have no place in reality.

It seems to be damaging the bass trombone in particular.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_HouBassTrombone]

^that is the Texas sound in a nutshell I believe...
But the great players here move past that. A lot of students get stuck in that stage and never get past it.
Just clarifying: not all the players here in Texas sound bad!

[ttf_BassBoneFL]

It's not just Texas..... I can't even begin to tell you the number of HS/College players who have come for a lesson over the years that were swimming in equipment that was way too big for them. When asked why, nearly every explanation included the term "...my band director....".

[ttf_HouBassTrombone]

Gotcha Mr. Van Schaik.
In my area the high school bass trombone that kids start on... Double Thayer Edwards with a dual bore slide. The mouthpiece that is stocked with it... A Schilke 60.

[ttf_sabutin]

This "too big equipment" syndrome at the middle school/high school level has a great deal to do with the way young players sound badly. (Plus of course the trend in U.S. music education to produce...to pass and certify w/a diploma...pretty much anybody whose checks clear and doesn't totally mess up in some serious way at school.)

Most beginners tend to get a "nasty" sound, especially at volume. These numbnuts instructors want their bands to sound the least ugly that they can possibly sound. It's good for their jobs if not their students. Tubby-sounding equipment sounds less ugly...less aggressivelyugly...in the hands of bad players than does smaller stuff. Instead of "Wrack wrack wrack" it"Woof woof woof." Plus...the instrument makers hype larger equipment because most orchestral players play it and hey can charge more for it.

So there y'are...20, 30, 40 years later? It's a style!!!

So it goes.

S.

[ttf_BGuttman]

Yup.  And the bass trombone players squawk every time the music goes above the bass clef because they can't play it in tune.

I also like the trumpet player BDs who figure that a 1C is a great trumpet mouthpiece, so a 1G must work great for trombone

I played a 1 1/2 G for years before moving to anything larger.  I still don't play a 1G or Schilke 60 although my Doug Elliott setup is similar in size (maybe I'm playing a Yeo without realizing it).  I still go back to the 1 1/2 G when I haven't played bass trombone for a while.

[ttf_elmsandr]

Quote from: blast on Apr 09, 2016, 01:50AM...
 well, when I switched, nobody noticed (all Elliott stuff) and playing life got easier... so I stuck with it. I can hear a difference here and there, but to others, I just sound like me... so it is a small thing.
...
This for me is why I still play Doug's pieces.  Just makes life easier.  Responds the way I want (and the way my chops think they should respond).

I still sink money into other mouthpieces, but man I can still resist some of them some times.  But that Mr. Bassbone piece from Noah is calling me.  It just looks so pretty.

Back on topic, I recently picked up a slightly modified Mt.Vernon 1 1/2G.  Interesting sound to this piece...  But it is by far the most unforgiving piece I have ever played.  Sounds great when I am on point, but if I stray just a bit.. I'm in wounded duck territory.  This, I believe is greatly due to the rim shape (which was the modification on this piece).  I'll have to be a lot stronger of a player than I am currently to get away with that.

Cheers,
Andy

[ttf_Pre59]

Quote from: sabutin on Apr 09, 2016, 11:05AMThis "too big equipment" syndrome at the middle school/high school level has a great deal to do with the way young players sound badly. (Plus of course the trend in U.S. music education to produce...to pass and certify w/a diploma...pretty much anybody whose checks clear and doesn't totally mess up in some serious way at school.)

Most beginners tend to get a "nasty" sound, especially at volume. These numbnuts instructors want their bands to sound the least ugly that they can possibly sound. It's good for their jobs if not their students. Tubby-sounding equipment sounds less ugly...less aggressivelyugly...in the hands of bad players than does smaller stuff. Instead of "Wrack wrack wrack" it"Woof woof woof." Plus...the instrument makers hype larger equipment because most orchestral players play it and hey can charge more for it.

So there y'are...20, 30, 40 years later? It's a style!!!

So it goes.

S.

Sad but true, and add in being taught by non-trombonists which leads to "slide position amnesia".. 

[ttf_EWadie99]

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 09, 2016, 01:37PMYup.  And the bass trombone players squawk every time the music goes above the bass clef because they can't play it in tune.

I also like the trumpet player BDs who figure that a 1C is a great trumpet mouthpiece, so a 1G must work great for trombone. Exactly!

[ttf_savio]

I did write in another tread that our face structure decide our choice of size. I think its part of it but not necessarily the hole truth.
 

I think its first about concepts. Sound or musical concepts is most important. The 1 1/2g is about the concept of sound.

I did see a masterclass recently with Jeff Reynolds. I will not say what he tell with my bad English. But it was about sound.

Anyway, is it possible to learn an equipment that dont fit your body.......I think its possible but it have some limits.

I think the most important thing is to have a sound goal. Musical goal...music....

Leif

[ttf_anonymous]

I can think of a number of people who have gotten into the finals for big orchestras on the 1 1/2 G (one of them for CSO), and several who have won jobs. It depends on how well it complements the player's natural sound, and how well it enables a serious player to realize what they hear in their head.

[ttf_Dan Hine]

I have to say I was shocked to learn that Matt Jefferson (from Maniacal 4) uses a Wick 2NL.   

[ttf_sfboner]

This is a tiny bit off-topic as I'm talking about tenor playing. 

I recently played an Esa-Pekka Salonen piece that had a page of FFF writing below the staff - around 20 pedal Bb's and ending on a chunky low C.  A very high level player (top 5 orchestra Assoc. Principal) played principal on this set, and let me know he was using a 1.5G for this page of music.  I thought "why not give it a try?" and hell if he wasn't on to something.  It worked a charm and sounded great.

[ttf_tbathras]

I play a 1-1/2G on my large tenor all the time (since I play bass almost 99% of the time).

I like it.

[ttf_EWadie99]

Quote from: tbathras on May 17, 2016, 10:45AMI play a 1-1/2G on my large tenor all the time (since I play bass almost 99% of the time).

I like it.
I'm doing the same thing with my Schilke 58 although is an older 88H but at least is work for me.

[ttf_savio]

Here is a little tune I made with my Doug Elliott MB 108. Conn shank. The MB 108 is same size as a 1 1/2 but the rim is some more flat and very comfortable on the mouth.

https://youtu.be/Nw_u1at6LZc

Leif

(Sorry I make all this videos, it started with making it for my mother who lived fare a way. None of my videos in my youtube channel are practiced or planned. Its mostly finding a tune, play it the same day and have fun. I planned to making some more of them arranged better, but maybe later in life....but I make them also to show its possible to make a big sound on smaller mouthpieces)

[ttf_blast]

Okay.... two weeks ago I snapped up a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G advertised in classifieds....
Never played one like this.... the most amazing sound and feel I have ever come across... quite different from the others I have played.
Well, I have sold out to the big rims and easy feel ... BUT....
This one I NEED to try and work with... it's not easy to play but the rewards..... oooohhhhhh !!!!!!
Can I downsize ??? Watch this space....

Chris Stearn

[ttf_Gabe Langfur]

Quote from: blast on Sep 14, 2016, 11:09AMOkay.... two weeks ago I snapped up a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G advertised in classifieds....
Never played one like this.... the most amazing sound and feel I have ever come across... quite different from the others I have played.
Well, I have sold out to the big rims and easy feel ... BUT....
This one I NEED to try and work with... it's not easy to play but the rewards..... oooohhhhhh !!!!!!
Can I downsize ??? Watch this space....

Chris Stearn

 

[ttf_snorsworthy]

Guys,

I play alto/tenor/bass, and have a wide array of mouthpieces and lead pipes. That being said, the problem with going that large of a mouthpiece on a 0.547-tenor is this: at first we are amazed at how much 'bigger' we perceive our sound is, but that is the player's perspective. What is actually happening is that we are loosing core and compactness of sound, and the sound is spreading wide, but, "is the sound actually projecting more?" That is a rhetorical question. The answer is 'no'. Anytime we spread core out beyond what the instrument is sized for, we loose projection. Does it aid in low register volume? 'Yes'. Is that a crutch? It depends on the player's ability. A better solution is to stay within the parameters of the instrument design and go slightly larger on the cup depth, back bore, and lead pipe venturi, and only do it under special circumstances and pieces.

Best regards,
Steve Norsworthy

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Sep 14, 2016, 12:10PM

Yeh yeh, I know.... read my first ever post in this thread...

This one might work.... more open down low... more slotted... above all, a rim I might actually be able to live with....

Chris Stearn

[ttf_savio]

 

When the rim feels good, this will go fine!
Congratulations!

Leif

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

Quote from: snorsworthy on Sep 14, 2016, 12:28PMGuys,

I play alto/tenor/bass, and have a wide array of mouthpieces and lead pipes. That being said, the problem with going that large of a mouthpiece on a 0.547-tenor is this: at first we are amazed at how much 'bigger' we perceive our sound is, but that is the player's perspective. What is actually happening is that we are loosing core and compactness of sound, and the sound is spreading wide, but, "is the sound actually projecting more?" That is a rhetorical question. The answer is 'no'. Anytime we spread core out beyond what the instrument is sized for, we loose projection. Does it aid in low register volume? 'Yes'. Is that a crutch? It depends on the player's ability. A better solution is to stay within the parameters of the instrument design and go slightly larger on the cup depth, back bore, and lead pipe venturi, and only do it under special circumstances and pieces.

Best regards,
Steve Norsworthy


Well a 1 and 1/2G is too big for a .547 bore instrument.

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

Quote from: blast on Sep 14, 2016, 11:09AMOkay.... two weeks ago I snapped up a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G advertised in classifieds....
Never played one like this.... the most amazing sound and feel I have ever come across... quite different from the others I have played.
Well, I have sold out to the big rims and easy feel ... BUT....
This one I NEED to try and work with... it's not easy to play but the rewards..... oooohhhhhh !!!!!!
Can I downsize ??? Watch this space....

Chris Stearn

Quote from: blast on Sep 14, 2016, 01:44PMYeh yeh, I know.... read my first ever post in this thread...

This one might work.... more open down low... more slotted... above all, a rim I might actually be able to live with....

Chris Stearn

Yeh, yeh. Keep rubbing it in. 

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Sep 15, 2016, 05:08AMYeh, yeh. Keep rubbing it in. 

Sorry Bill..... there is a good chance you might not like it.... very much away from the norm... wider, flatter rim, so feels very different on the face... it forces you to form your embouchure in a particular way. Visually it is close to my other MV 1 1/2G, but not when it is on the face.

Chris Stearn

[ttf_wgwbassbone]

Just joking around. Sounds like you're on an interesting journey. Enjoy!

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: wgwbassbone on Sep 15, 2016, 06:30AMJust joking around. Sounds like you're on an interesting journey. Enjoy!

It's very interesting.... I thought my Elliotts had brought the mouthpiece game to an end... for me they totally work... I don't have to think about the mouthpiece element at all with them.
Now I pick up this old 1 1/2G that is a revelation to play... HOW is it so good ???? I cannot see any reason, but I will say this... the shank has been shaved down a little so it goes in more than usual... if I build up the shank so it sticks out the normal amount it is less impressive.... tiny details....
I have been checking other mouthpieces that I own and find that 2Gs are smaller in the throat than 1 1/2Gs, even though the catalog says they are the same....

Chris Stearn

[ttf_Dan Hine]

Quote from: blast on Sep 14, 2016, 01:44PMYeh yeh, I know.... read my first ever post in this thread...

After reading that post, what stood out to me today was:

"Ask yourself when you play...is this the most interesting sound I've ever made ?"

I don't know that I've ever had one mouthpiece/sound that fit that description.  Most interesting how?  I have several that all do different things very well.  Choosing between them becomes difficult.  In fact, that "honeymoon" period when changing mouthpieces may often be, for me, that I have missed what it has to offer and it's nice to have that back.  Then, 6 months later I pick up one of the others and OH YEAH!  That's why I keep this one around!

So, if you can (and I don't mean that as a challenge), would you define what you think is "the most interesting sound?"

- Dan

[ttf_blast]

Quote from: Dan Hine on Sep 15, 2016, 01:53PMAfter reading that post, what stood out to me today was:

"Ask yourself when you play...is this the most interesting sound I've ever made ?"

I don't know that I've ever had one mouthpiece/sound that fit that description.  Most interesting how?  I have several that all do different things very well.  Choosing between them becomes difficult.  In fact, that "honeymoon" period when changing mouthpieces may often be, for me, that I have missed what it has to offer and it's nice to have that back.  Then, 6 months later I pick up one of the others and OH YEAH!  That's why I keep this one around!

So, if you can (and I don't mean that as a challenge), would you define what you think is "the most interesting sound?"

- Dan

A very good question indeed....
I have been listening on Youtube today.... trying to redefine my idea of an interesting sound, hoping to justify working with this mouthpiece. It was easy... I still like the same players, still dislike some other players.... I like a bass trombone sound that has a complex, overtone rich quality... has focus, clarity and a character that makes me want to keep listening. I want to hear music, and for that you need a musical sound. Listening live is the ultimate test and I have my list of players, past and present that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when I heard them play.
This mouthpiece helps me a little to get in the sound direction I want.... it's not a lot... many people may not hear a difference.....but to me it's important. Feel is different... this thing feels like it's a league ahead of anything else I've played.... I'm getting massive feedback and the feel of a guiding hand through the physical aspects of playing... it sort of makes me do things better... makes me work at it.

Chris Stearn