Piston Valve F Section Possible?

[Bloo]

I've always hated rotors but I love having a trigger on my trombone. Every rotor I've tried... I just can't adjust my articulation to match anything that's not a piston.
Been throwing the idea around in my head for a while now for a piston valve with a hand brace for the F section. I could probably steal some pieces to make it significantly easier if I found the right trombonium / flugabone.
Anybody here have experience with piston valves on a trombone? I'm curious how it could be so problematic that I've never seen one, aside from ergonomic issues.

[LIBrassCo]

Not only is it possible, it's been done a very long time ago. I've played a Conn one, works well!

[NotSkilledHere]

They are extremely rare and few and far between. They are the Conn 64H and the Conn 12H, with the 64H being tuning in bell and 12H bring tuning in slide. There are so few of these left that are known that you could probably count them on one hand. I think I've heard of a few more but i can't think of their makes.

There are i think 3-4 known 12H's with the most visible being Mr Noah Gladstone's. And 1 known 64H that I know of, and that would be the one I've been blessed enough to own and play.

Mine came to me in poor condition and I've had Houghton Horns reassemble it for me and they've done a wonderful job so far. A few weird kinks left to iron out but the project is coming together well.

It isn't particularly unergonomic. It isn't really like super comfy either. It's in between. It's kinda weird to hold but it works and doesn't bring discomfort. I think the rotors, thayers, haagmans are just more ergonomic and development proceeded that way for various reasons. There aren't problems per se. It's just a design choice the world has gone with.

If anything, the horn plays more open when the valve is not depressed than any modern comparable because the tubing is straight through without any change or small turn like in valves. When valve is depressed i dont find that the resistance the horn provides is even that much. Comparable to a standard rotor. Not what I would call stuffy at all.

I'll attach some images of the horn.

If you want something like that done today, you'll probably have to get custom work done and a custom valve core machined. And the valve you get put in may be more or less resistant than mine. In addition, you notice the valve kind of close to the mp receiver? That slide is almost identically wide to a Bach 42. In fact, the slide is almost identical in dimensions to that of a Bach 42, so you'll probably also end up with a wide slide setup.

just a few notes about my horn and its cousin, the 64H and 12H are considered "small bass trombones" but they are .547 bore and 8.5" bells. I think bell taper and throat are larger/different from a large tenor, but you can kind of just call that being a different large bore tenor trombone.

[timothy42b]

There's a double piston F trigger possibility too, has anyone seen one of those?

[elmsandr]

There's a double piston F trigger possibility too, has anyone seen one of those?

Yes, there was a German company doing single and double conversions with a real nice ergo hand rest a while ago. Not at a computer so I don’t have saved pics handy, but it looked great. Even did a contra, as I recall.

This may be why I picked up a used Yamaha euphonium piston set….

Cheers,
Andy

[timothy42b]

I haven't seen a trombone with the Vienna valve, but here's a link:

https://www.hornmatters.com/2023/12/vie ... enna-horn/

[jonathanharker]

Here's a Système Belge trombone, with four Vienna valves.



Tenor-bass valve trombone with fourth valve for F, built c. 1910 in Brussels by Sénécaut and Persy. St Cecilia's Hall Concert Room & Music Museum, Musical Instruments Museums Edinburgh, accession number 3339. Photographed by Antonia Reeve. Licensed CC-BY, attribution "University of Edinburgh"

[ghmerrill]

After decades of playing tubas, euphoniums, and trombones with piston and rotary valves, I would not want a piston valve on a trombone. It just doesn't offer the advantages and trade-offs that it does on real valved instruments. My personal preference (though not by a lot) is for pistons on tubas and euphs. I just like the "feel" a bit better -- but not by a huge degree. For maintainability and overall avoidance of hassle, and peace of mind, I'll take the rotaries (assuming modern mini-ball valve linkages).

[jonathanharker]

See also this thread about a 1928-29 Courtois, with an open wrap piston valve:
viewtopic.php?p=246741