Large bore trombone expansion

[Chatname]

Is it known which individual tenor trombonist/ trombone section first made the switch from medium to large bore in an American symphony orchestra? I know large bores where common in Germany, but I believe in the US Bach 34/36 and Conn 78/79 (other brands? Olds?) were standard orchestral equipment until something like the middle of the last century. I would be curious to know how the large tenor at that point must have spread like a virus, from section to section. When did the sections of the major symphony orchestras make the move, and in which order? Primarily Bach 42 or Conn 8H? Where there groups or individuals that kept using smaller instruments much longer than others? It is for example much less obvious why a larger bore would be an advantage in an opera orchestra or a smaller sized ensemble.
Would love to hear some facts or anecdotes about this. Thank you!

[GabrielRice]

Good question.

What I do know is that the Conn 8H and 88H became the standard American orchestral tenor trombones by sometime in the 1950s as Emory Remington's students started occupying the major jobs. Gordon Pulis and the New York Philharmonic were particularly influential, and their tour of the UK sometime in the 50s inspired many British players to go in that direction.

[BGuttman]

The large bore was used by the 2nd trombonist in many orchestras in the 1940s and earlier.

The shift to larger instruments really took hold when the students of Emory Remington started taking positions. Remington was a big advocate of the large bore instrument (the Conn 88H in particular). Remington's students started winning positions in the early 1950s. In Great Britain, Denis Wick introduced the large bore in the 1950s. Up till then orchestral trombonists were using 0.465" bore instruments (the origin of the term "pea shooter").

Just for comparison, Jacob Raichman in the Boston Symphony was using a Bach 36 in the 1940s. Johannes Rochut was using a .500" bore with the Boston Symphony in the 1920s.

German instruments had very large bells but smallish bore. Many German players were using instruments of about 12.7 mm bore and 230 mm bells.

The change didn't happen all of a sudden. Bores began to get bigger through out the first half of the 20th Century all around the US.

[Bach5G]

What came first? 42Bs or 88Hs?

[BGuttman]

What came first? 42Bs or 88Hs?

I'm pretty sure it was the 8H -> 88H. As early as the 1930s you could order an 8H with an F-attachment even though it wasn't formalized as the 88H until much later.

[Burgerbob]

What came first? 42Bs or 88Hs?

88H. 42B was made as a response to the Conn large bore by taking the Bach 45 slide+Bach 36B bell section+a half inch of bell.

[Chatname]

Did Pulis and Van Haney both play large bore in NYPO? Conn or Bach? Already in 1946 or eventually? Pulis was not there for very long, I believe?

[imsevimse]

What came first? 42Bs or 88Hs?

I'm pretty sure it was the 8H -> 88H. As early as the 1930s you could order an 8H with an F-attachment even though it wasn't formalized as the 88H until much later.

If memory serves me well the Conn 88H came in the catalogue in 1954 and if it had a valve before that it was called a Conn 8h "special".

/Tom

[Chatname]

I suppose Crisafulli was on a large bore his whole career. How about Robert Lambert, does anyone know which instrument he used? Did Friedman play Bach 42 when he got the job? I assume by the sixties everyone going for major orchestral positions were playing .547.

[brassmedic]

Jay Friedman wrote that Chicago used to use large bore German instruments. http://www.jayfriedman.net/the-german-trombone/

[Chatname]

That’s very interesting, so if this is correct CSO has been playing large bores for at least a century now! And Crisafulli started on Schmidt, switched to Conn 88H and later to Holton T150..?
How about NYPO?
I’m reading the biography on William Vacchiano (highly interesting!), there’s much information about his equipment but obviously none about that of his trombone colleagues’s.

[octavposaune]

Hi all,

I Just went to the source and asked Jay about his first horn he used in the CSO. He said "it was a straight 42 with a gold brass bell. Kleinhammer ordered it for me in 1959 for $290.00 . I played that for 30 years before putting an early thayer valve on it, but that valve leaked due to the bad alloy"

Right now he is using a MV45 with a carbon fiber .562 slide in the CSO

Benn

[Chatname]

Wow! What a legend that man is! And on some cutting edge equipment…

[Tbarh]

Hi all,

I Just went to the source and asked Jay about his first horn he used in the CSO. He said "it was a straight 42 with a gold brass bell. Kleinhammer ordered it for me in 1959 for $290.00 . I played that for 30 years before putting an early thayer valve on it, but that valve leaked due to the bad alloy"

Right now he is using a MV45 with a carbon fiber .562 slide in the CSO

Benn

Carbon slide?

[Tomnormann]

Hi all,

I Just went to the source and asked Jay about his first horn he used in the CSO. He said "it was a straight 42 with a gold brass bell. Kleinhammer ordered it for me in 1959 for $290.00 . I played that for 30 years before putting an early thayer valve on it, but that valve leaked due to the bad alloy"

Right now he is using a MV45 with a carbon fiber .562 slide in the CSO

Benn

Yes, he talks about that horn in some interviews. Did he tell you what he did with that horn after the leaking? Did he repair it or did he change to another valve?

[Tbarh]

It may well have been an anomaly at the time, but my 1920 model Conn "Symphony -large" has a much larger bell throat than either a modern 88H and 42B.. I guess it is also larger than a Bach 45B .. slide bore is 547.. Probably not the common orchestra horn at the time, but somebody must have loved that sound even back then ..(at least I do now )

[Tbarh]

Hi all,

I Just went to the source and asked Jay about his first horn he used in the CSO. He said "it was a straight 42 with a gold brass bell. Kleinhammer ordered it for me in 1959 for $290.00 . I played that for 30 years before putting an early thayer valve on it, but that valve leaked due to the bad alloy"

Right now he is using a MV45 with a carbon fiber .562 slide in the CSO

Benn

Yes, he talks about that horn in some interviews. Did he tell you what he did with that horn after the leaking? Did he repair it or did he change to another valve?

He used different valve sets om that horn..läetszch ,Meinlschmidt and Shires double valve. I remember a seminar in Gothenburg before a CSO concert with Solti in '89. There he used this horn valveless.
He also had with him a 42T which he shared with Charlie Vernon for when he used a tenor..

[SFA]

Hi all,

I Just went to the source and asked Jay about his first horn he used in the CSO. He said "it was a straight 42 with a gold brass bell. Kleinhammer ordered it for me in 1959 for $290.00 . I played that for 30 years before putting an early thayer valve on it, but that valve leaked due to the bad alloy"

Right now he is using a MV45 with a carbon fiber .562 slide in the CSO

Benn

Carbon slide?

[Retrobone]

I suppose Crisafulli was on a large bore his whole career.

Not sure about that. This video is recorded in 1952. I read somewhere that FC played a 78H Conn when he was principal. Before friendly Fritz demoted him. From this shot looks like something a bit smaller than his Holton form later.

[Retrobone]

That’s very interesting, so if this is correct CSO has been playing large bores for at least a century now! And Crisafulli started on Schmidt, switched to Conn 88H and later to Holton T150..?
How about NYPO?
I’m reading the biography on William Vacchiano (highly interesting!), there’s much information about his equipment but obviously none about that of his trombone colleagues’s.

It's been a real passion of mine to collect recordings of American orchestras from the 50's 60's and 70's. Let's say before the invention of the Thayer valve... For me, the sound of the older sections is much more interesting to listen to than the more or less indistinguishable sound of American sections today. Philly, Boston, NYPO, CSO and Cleveland (The big 5). They all had a distinct sound concept and style, and were more "formed" by their conductors. I have the complete Ormandy/PO boxes for instance. Also the Bernstein Mahler cycle from the 60's. Reiner and CSO... loads of great recordings. These days of peripatetic maestro's and maestra's added to the highly efficient modern trombones make everyone sound more or less alike. Listen to the BSO under Nelsons and compare it to the sound under Charles Munch in the 50's. the former could be any American orchestra now, the latter totally individual and recognizable. Of course, personnel changes and so does the style. But back in the day you tell which orchestra was playing if you switched on the radio.
Anyway, as far as I'm aware, the NYPO in the '60s were playing on large bore Conn's and Reynolds. The shift to Bach and beyond came in the 80's.
Maybe the switch to bigger mouthpieces had even more effect on the character of sound.
I chose Retrobone as my forum name... I am a bit of a dinosaur but I love a more compact and brilliant orchestral trombone sound than most modern players.

[Tbarh]

Looks like orchestral players of today put their trust in their standard " workhorses" and also feel more secure with the allround "one size fits all" sound.. I am also enjoying the more compact and brilliant orchestral trombone sound ,Tim !... But , I also love the huge sound i get from my huge 1920 Conn which are not capable of producing an ugly sound. I also love the more "french"style that my 7 1/2" 78H gives me, and I would also love to have an old German style trombone.. Too bad that most today's orchestral players doesn't have the courage to use different horns..They certainly have the technical skills to pull it off..

Trond