Prepared trombone ideas?

[Gabriel06]

I'm currently composing for an ensemble of entire prepared instruments. Does anybody have ideas on how to prepare the trombone? Possibly some ways to modify mutes?
In the past I've covered my bell with tin foil.

[AtomicClock]

Prop the water key open? Remove pieces? Use a trumpet mouthpiece?

[BGuttman]

Jack Teagarden used the trombone slide playing into a bar glass (beer glass). Takes some getting used to, though (I tried). There is a video of Teagarden doing it on YouTube.

The Buzz-Wow mute adds kazoo-like tones to the sound. Don't know if it's still in the Humes and Berg catalog.

You may have seen the "Bandmaster" trombone with two different bells.

You can use a pickup like the Yamaha Silent Brass coupled into a guitar effects system. Tom Plsec did a bunch of this at Berklee.

Good luck with your project.

[AndrewMeronek]

Hardly anyone ever calls for a Harmon mute with stem.

[BGuttman]

Hardly anyone ever calls for a Harmon mute with stem.

Removing the stem from a trombone Harmon mute turns it into a very effective practice mute. Unless you are heavily miked you won't be heard. I know it's popular among trumpeters to play without stems, but somehow they manage to cut through that way.

[bitbckt]

Hirschman makes the Chicago Stinger which also has a kazoo-like effect.

[calcbone]

Surprised Brad Edwards’s piece Blue Wolf hasn’t been mentioned yet—he has the player remove the F-attachment tuning slide and creates some pretty cool effects.

So, if you have an F-attachment, you might explore some effects with that…maybe put something in the end of the tube where the F-attachment tuning slide would go—like a kazoo, a whistle… there would be a lot of possibilities here. Or even remove the main tuning slide and put something else in its place, if you don’t want to have any “normal” trombone sounds.

[harrisonreed]

Hardly anyone ever calls for a Harmon mute with stem.

You mean stem with no cup on it? Or stem extended?

The only Harmon I know of with an actual "stem" is the Ullvén. It comes with three, in addition to the wah wah cup stem.

[harrisonreed]

[Kingfan]

Years ago I put my mouthpiece where the slide would attach to the bell and used the F trigger to make some interesting noises.

[AndrewMeronek]

You mean stem with no cup on it? Or stem extended?

Um, what? Harmon mutes only come in one flavor of stem and yes it is movable.

[Doug Elliott]

Pull the F attachment tuning slide off. either leave it off, or insert one leg so you can tune a little. And/or insert a kazoo

An aluminum pie plate makes a nice buzzy mute.

In college I played a solo that had one movement played on the slide, no bell, while marching in place.

[AtomicClock]

Wasn't there an oddball mouthpiece a few years ago that let you make didgeridoo effects?

[harrisonreed]

You mean stem with no cup on it? Or stem extended?

Um, what? Harmon mutes only come in one flavor of stem and yes it is movable.

Yeah, exactly. You said no one calls for Harmon with stem. I was just wondering if you meant "with stem (extended)" or "with (special) stem". Maybe you meant "without stem".

The Ullvén comes with four stems though, just saying.

[AndrewMeronek]

Yeah, exactly. You said no one calls for Harmon with stem. I was just wondering if you meant "with stem (extended)" or "with (special) stem". Maybe you meant "without stem".

No, I mean with stem, in any configuration.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah, exactly. You said no one calls for Harmon with stem. I was just wondering if you meant "with stem (extended)" or "with (special) stem". Maybe you meant "without stem".

No, I mean with stem, in any configuration.

Sorry about that! My experience is the opposite. Never had a piece that called for Harmon mute without a wah wah effect or just requiring the stem in general.

Trumpets are more in line with what you're talking about, Dizzy style.

[SamBTbrn]

You can put a short basoon reed or oboe reed inside the mouthpiece (that pokes into your mouth) that makes an amazing combination of sounds when you play (buzzing the mouthpiece as well as the reed at the same time).

Also hold a CD flat against the inside of your bell like you do with a plunger mute. With your finger blocking the hole in center. Also makes a great sound

[mbarbier]

I'm currently composing for an ensemble of entire prepared instruments. Does anybody have ideas on how to prepare the trombone? Possibly some ways to modify mutes?
In the past I've covered my bell with tin foil.

Feel free to send me an email- [email protected]. it might take a few days to get back cause currently wrapping up the semester. But that's the bulk of my work and just wrapping up a course for composers covering those topics, so could send some methods and media examples.

[WilliamLang]

I would say that 95% of the time I use harmon it's with stem. It's fairly rare to be asked for it without stem, and most of the time composers think they're gonna get a Miles Davis sound, but it just doesn't do that, so they often go back to stem in pretty quickly. Using the harmon halfway in the bell gets some really nice sounds also.

One last harmon trick - lifting one finger at a time off the cup can be really fun and really accentuate overtones in a way not much else does.


The CD mute trick is good for a buzz (a coffee cup lid works as well.) Reeds can be really fun - I get the best results with bassoon, followed by contra-bassoon, than oboe and shawm reeds. I did a little video on different ways to add a buzzing sound not too long ago.


Baritone sax mouthpieces in place of the slide can be great also. Check out the DinoBone concerto by Piyawat Louilarpprasert to hear both double read and baritone sax stuff along with a cool bell preparation.


You can half valve most trombones to get an interesting timbre, remove or half remove the f-attachment, add tubing the the f-attachment (like a garden hose) or just play directly on the bell section. Aluminum foil works well, and then if you dip into electronics (Mattie is really good at this!) there's a gigantic other world of possibility.

[harrisonreed]

I would say that 95% of the time I use harmon it's with stem. It's fairly rare to be asked for it without stem, and most of the time composers think they're gonna get a Miles Davis sound, but it just doesn't do that, so they often go back to stem in pretty quickly.

I thought I was going crazy!

[cmcslide]

Check out Dave Taylor in this performance from the American Trombone Workshop in 2017. He uses a buzz mute and a mini bell replacing the tuning slide on the second valve section of his bass trombone.

Edit: for some reason I couldn’t get the YouTube video to play on the site, but a quick google search will find it….

[AndrewMeronek]

I thought I was going crazy!

To be fair, my reference is about 2 out of 1000 charts that I've ever seen "Harmon" marked for trombones, and then it's with trumpets who are always stemless. Guess I just don't see the good charts.

[WilliamLang]

Trombone harmon with stem blends a lot better with stemless trumpets IMHO. The trombone harmon without stem is an intonation nightmare and has the woofiest sound - better to use a bucket for that effect!

[harrisonreed]

That's why the swedish Harmon mute comes with the three different internal stems -- you get the trumpet Harmon sound but the intonation and sound is good.

[dukesboneman]

Stuart Dempster`s Book "The Modern Trombonist" will give a lot of ideas.
also videos and recordings of players like Steve Swell, George Lewis, Conrad Bauer, Albert Mangelsdorf and Stuart Dempster.
William Lang`s above video with the Harmon mute effects is great. Using the same technique with moving individual fingers couple that with using multiphonics and the overtones are cool.
Like in the Berio , using a Metal plunger (Harmon makes one) and rattling it one the bell. You can get some great effects with a plunger, Multiphonics and manipulating the shape of mouth to get some interesting digeridoo sounds.

Then there`s a whole different universe when you get into electronic effects.

[jacobgarchik]

Hardware stores sell 1/2" flexible tubing by the foot. This fits snugly on the tuning slide receiver of an F attachment. You can connect this to another instrument bell, a funnel, glass of water, or just leave it open on one end. If the hose is long enough you can put another instrument many feet away for all kinds of spacial effects while leaving intact the non trigger side of the horn. I saw a recital by Bruce Crisp where he had a trombone off stage that was triggered through tubing by his regular trombone (or was it vice versa? I forget). With a double trigger horn you get even more possibilities - you can have 2 additional bells/sound sources, positioned widely apart, for many spacial effects.
I have a double mouthpiece made for playing two trombones at once. These are pretty easy to make out of plastic by sawing off 1/3 of the mouthpieces lengthwise and gluing them together. Mine are standard brass mouthpieces welded together. You can then hold two small bore trombones together and play in microtonal unison or limited harmony.
I also have experimented, with limited success, with using a fan to mechanically open and close the stem of a harmon mute. An ongoing project of mine.
People have also experimented with attaching motors to a rotary valve to quickly vacillate between multiple bells.
BTW Will, Steve Turre is probably the biggest exponent of trombone + harmon with no stem; he has recorded it often.

[WilliamLang]

I'll check Steve's stuff out! Always good to have a new inspiration. Love to drop by and see the harmon mute fan idea also

[heldenbone]

Loose rivets around the bell rim, similar to some really noisy ride cymbals that were popular years ago.

[uro]

Did anyone try an oboe reed? I want to buy one but I don't know if it fits into the bore!

[Posaunus]

Did anyone try an oboe reed? I want to buy one but I don't know if it fits into the bore!

An oboe reed will fit with room to spare. The largest part (the cork) is only about 6 mm (~0.25 inches) diameter.
Drop it into your trombone bore and you may need to visit a tech to fish it out of the slide crook!

[uro]

maybe the bassoon reed can fit it better in the trombone bore?

[Posaunus]

maybe the bassoon reed can fit it better in the trombone bore?

The late (and lamented) Peter Schickele (P.D.Q. Bach) beat you to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._ ... omboon.jpg

Tromboon

The tromboon is a musical instrument made up of the reed and bocal of a bassoon, attached to the body of a trombone in place of the trombone's mouthpiece. It combines the sound of double reeds and the slide for a distinctive and unusual instrument. The name of the instrument is a portmanteau of "trombone" and "bassoon". The sound quality of the instrument is best described as comical and loud.

The tromboon was developed by Peter Schickele, a skilled bassoonist himself, and featured in some of his live concert and recorded performances. Schickele called it "a hybrid – that's the nicer word – constructed from the parts of a bassoon and a trombone; it has all the disadvantages of both".[17][18] This instrument is called for in the scores of P. D. Q. Bach's oratorio The Seasonings,[19] as well as the Serenude (for devious instruments)[5]: 187  and Shepherd on the Rocks, With a Twist.[20]

R.I.P., Peter.

[mbarbier]

Did anyone try an oboe reed? I want to buy one but I don't know if it fits into the bore!

It fits quite easily. It basically makes one high note and doesn't do much else. I find it to be a bummer. Sadly is much less exciting than bassoon reed. it's much more successful if you mount the reed in the bottom of the mouthpiece rather than put your mouth on the reed.

[sf105]

Stuart Dempster`s Book "The Modern Trombonist" will give a lot of ideas.
also videos and recordings of players like Steve Swell, George Lewis, Conrad Bauer, Albert Mangelsdorf and Stuart Dempster.

Seconding the Stuart Dempster book. In the UK, we had Alan Tomlinson (unfortunately died recently), who was a phenomenal improviser.

S

[Posaunus]

Stuart Dempster's Book "The Modern Trombonist" will give a lot of ideas.

Nice to see Stuart Dempster recognized here. He's a fine musician, who became a leader of the avant garde movement.

Stu preceded me as a trombone legend at my high school by several years, and briefly took me under his wing when I joined the Musician's Union as a teenager. I still consider him a model and a mentor.

[Dennis]

I'm currently composing for an ensemble of entire prepared instruments. Does anybody have ideas on how to prepare the trombone? Possibly some ways to modify mutes?
In the past I've covered my bell with tin foil.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned John Cage's Solo for Sliding Trombone (Solo for Sliding Trombone).

Cage covers most of the obvious stuff.

As far as Harmon mutes go, Alan Kaplan holds that if the trumpets are going stem out, we should also pull the stem to get a better blend. He also notes that removing the stem makes the pitch center indistinct below about F3. He says that if we'll use a finger to partially block the mute opening it works (better). (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ezH6GM8Cc_E). Of course this doesn't help in the least if you have to use a valve. (You also can't just use chewing gum or something to block things because the amount of blocking needed varies between F3 and F2, and by the time you're at Bb3 you don't really need it blocked at all.)

A fluffy towel draped over the bell gives an interesting muted effect. It's something like a bucket but different.

[dukesboneman]

I just started using a Boss ME-0 effects unit
Some of the effects coupled with some multiphonics gets things interesting.
You can get some great Digeridoo effects by manipulating the oral cavity and Multiphonics
I use the Harmon Mute quite a bit, with or without the stem.
I have the Swedish Mute and a Jor Al Bubble Mute.
Yes , the lower range gets a little wonky but that can be a very cool effect and with practice
it can be controlled, to a certain extent.
Pulling the mouthpiece part way off your bottom lip can give you an interersting 1/2 Valve effect.
you can also get that Phil Wilson buzz.
You can also manipulate the F valve , different versions of 1/2 Valve and speak thru it
Just experiment with your horn, Do all those things your High School and college Teachers told you not to do

[iranzi]

Jack Teagarden used the trombone slide playing into a bar glass (beer glass).

Here is a version of that technique but with a second mouthpiece acting as a tiny little bell, instead of the glass idea:

Robinson Khoury - Cosmos


and some expert use of stemless harmon mute, about 6 minutes into this whole video


• ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • ° • °
For the OP project — check out Matthias Muche solo trombone videos, he uses quite a few preparations: physical alterations & additions (including what looks like fish line running along the main slide) & electric sound processing.
they don't seem to upload here. just a couple of titles:
Matthias Muche SOLO Trombone - TEASER
Matthias Muche @ BERLIN SOLO IMPRO 2022 / Day3

if you like reading about it, the aformentioned Stewart Dempster book is floating about freely in pdf format

[iranzi]

[...] lifting one finger at a time off the cup can be really fun and really accentuate overtones in a way not much else does.

This is really amazing, never occured to me!
as well as the other videos in your post. Such fun!

[iranzi]

Trombone harmon with stem blends a lot better with stemless trumpets IMHO. The trombone harmon without stem is an intonation nightmare and has the woofiest sound - better to use a bucket for that effect!

So strange that the intonation problems don't seem to happen on a trumpet (unless my memory fails me here). I wonder what could be the reason...

[iranzi]

Hardware stores sell 1/2" flexible tubing by the foot. This fits snugly on the tuning slide receiver of an F attachment. You can connect this to another instrument bell, a funnel, glass of water, or just leave it open on one end. If the hose is long enough you can put another instrument many feet away for all kinds of spacial effects while leaving intact the non trigger side of the horn. I saw a recital by Bruce Crisp where he had a trombone off stage that was triggered through tubing by his regular trombone (or was it vice versa? I forget). With a double trigger horn you get even more possibilities - you can have 2 additional bells/sound sources, positioned widely apart, for many spacial effects.
I have a double mouthpiece made for playing two trombones at once. These are pretty easy to make out of plastic by sawing off 1/3 of the mouthpieces lengthwise and gluing them together. Mine are standard brass mouthpieces welded together. You can then hold two small bore trombones together and play in microtonal unison or limited harmony.
I also have experimented, with limited success, with using a fan to mechanically open and close the stem of a harmon mute. An ongoing project of mine.
People have also experimented with attaching motors to a rotary valve to quickly vacillate between multiple bells.
BTW Will, Steve Turre is probably the biggest exponent of trombone + harmon with no stem; he has recorded it often.

Wow! A whole treasure trove of fun!

[iranzi]

Stuart Dempster`s Book "The Modern Trombonist" will give a lot of ideas.
also videos and recordings of players like Steve Swell, George Lewis, Conrad Bauer, Albert Mangelsdorf and Stuart Dempster.

Seconding the Stuart Dempster book. In the UK, we had Alan Tomlinson (unfortunately died recently), who was a phenomenal improviser.

S

and Paul Rutherford (also gone. but still with us)

[iranzi]

I just started using a Boss ME-0 effects unit
Some of the effects coupled with some multiphonics gets things interesting.
You can get some great Digeridoo effects by manipulating the oral cavity and Multiphonics
I use the Harmon Mute quite a bit, with or without the stem.
I have the Swedish Mute and a Jor Al Bubble Mute.
Yes , the lower range gets a little wonky but that can be a very cool effect and with practice
it can be controlled, to a certain extent.
Pulling the mouthpiece part way off your bottom lip can give you an interersting 1/2 Valve effect.
you can also get that Phil Wilson buzz.
You can also manipulate the F valve , different versions of 1/2 Valve and speak thru it
Just experiment with your horn, Do all those things your High School and college Teachers told you not to do

I really want to try Roland VT-4. A friend uses it for voice, i think it could be amazing with trombone also:

Roland VT-4.jpg

someone mentioned this in another thread: Dicky Wells's "pepperpot" mute. He used it occasionally and even presented the only other original version of it to Tommy Dorsey (who died not long after so never got a chance to use it in public, as far as i know). Dicky Wells mentions it in his book "The Night People".

hear it used by Torolf Mølgaard:
viewtopic.php?p=257479#p257479

(In his book Dicky Wells several times says something like: "after all, trombone is a voice-leading instrument". Can anybody guess at what he meant by that?
It's possible he didn't mean it the way it appears in print — the main bulk of the book is edited transcripts: he spoke it and it was written down like this, an adjective with the dash in it... )

Pepperpot mute by Dicky Wells copy.png

[Finetales]

Doug's comment about removing the F valve tuning slide (possibly including reattaching it with only the top leg) is what I immediately thought of. And of course, a Yamaha Silent Brass mute plugged into a pedalboard would get you tons of options.

One time during my undergrad, a new music composer friend of mine wanted to see all the possible extended techniques the trombone could do, so we spent some time experimenting. The craziest thing I ended up doing was to take a bass trombone bell section on its own (no slide), put a mouthpiece loosely into the slide receiver, point the bell upright (so you play into it downwards), and then put an inverted plunger on the bell so it rattled around when you played. It was certainly unique!

[Posaunus]

One time during my undergrad, a "new music" composer friend of mine wanted to see all the possible extended techniques the trombone could do, so we spent some time experimenting. The craziest thing I ended up doing was to take a bass trombone bell section on its own (no slide), put a mouthpiece loosely into the slide receiver, point the bell upright (so you play into it downwards), and then put an inverted plunger on the bell so it rattled around when you played. It was certainly unique!

Unfortunately, this sort of "new music" (when presented to the public) helped give contemporary music a bad name, tarnishing all the work of many talented composers who provide music worth listening to.

[iranzi]

Doug's comment about removing the F valve tuning slide (possibly including reattaching it with only the top leg) is what I immediately thought of. And of course, a Yamaha Silent Brass mute plugged into a pedalboard would get you tons of options.

One time during my undergrad, a new music composer friend of mine wanted to see all the possible extended techniques the trombone could do, so we spent some time experimenting. The craziest thing I ended up doing was to take a bass trombone bell section on its own (no slide), put a mouthpiece loosely into the slide receiver, point the bell upright (so you play into it downwards), and then put an inverted plunger on the bell so it rattled around when you played. It was certainly unique!

I really like the Silent Brass idea! Heven't got any effect pedals but there are a few apps on my telephone that do sound processing, effects, etc (these thinings are so easy these days! wiring it the right way isn't easy, though).
Inverted plunger sounds really interesting too! I occasionally use an inverted stemless harmon-type mute as a plunger — it's not easy to hold (very easy on the trumpet) and it clinks against the bell, but a variety of interesting timbres can be created that way. There's also an amazing metallic rattle, if the mute is held against the bell without pressing it too hard.

[iranzi]

One time during my undergrad, a "new music" composer friend of mine wanted to see all the possible extended techniques the trombone could do, so we spent some time experimenting. The craziest thing I ended up doing was to take a bass trombone bell section on its own (no slide), put a mouthpiece loosely into the slide receiver, point the bell upright (so you play into it downwards), and then put an inverted plunger on the bell so it rattled around when you played. It was certainly unique!

Unfortunately, this sort of "new music" (when presented to the public) helped give contemporary music a bad name, tarnishing all the work of many talented composers who provide music worth listening to.

there's always bad music, whether new or old. I wouldn't be able to tell what's good if it wasn't for all the bad and mediocre stuff — it has it's uses. (totally unrelated to Finetales' experiments btw)

[AtomicClock]

"Nu mouthpieces" (apparently now out of production) facilitate didgeridoo-style playing on a trombone. I've never tried one, but the videos are interesting.