Bach 34 vs 36

[cruisebone]

Hello all,

I am looking for a Bach 36 Straight tenor - NY or Mt. Vernon only.

BUT, I am curios about how the 34 straight compares to the 36 in terms of playability, weight, sound, etc. I know the bore size is .522 and .525 respectively but curious about other comparisons and experiences from the experts here.

I currently have 3 horns - an old crappy Getzen that I am about to sell, or donate somewhere, an early 60s brass King 2-b that I played on a cruise ship gig for a year, and an early King 2-b Silvertone. So the .522 and .525 are clearly bigger than what I have used but is there really a noticeable difference in those bore sizes?

Thanks for any help y'all might provide!

[BGuttman]

Firstly, a 34 is a rare beast and you will probably have a hard time finding one.

From where you are coming, I'd bet you won't be able to tell the difference between a 34 and a 36. If you just find a nice 36 and learn it you will probably find it works a treat.

Note that the 36 comes with two options: yellow vs. gold brass bell, and standard vs. lightweight (nickel) slide. Yellow bell seems to pair best with standard slide and gold bell pairs to lightweight slide. But you may find you like any of the 4 combinations.

[cruisebone]

1 - I did find a 34: are they great player's?
2 - If the width of the slide has been widened to that of a 42, would that kill the magic of the 34?
3 - Could I restore the magic by fixing the slide width?

Thanks for your quick reply!
JohnW

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

1 - I did find a 34: are they great player's?
2 - If the width of the slide has been widened to that of a 42, would that kill the magic of the 34?
3 - Could I restore the magic by fixing the slide width?

Thanks for your quick reply!
JohnW

I think I know which horn you’re referring to. I saw that on their website as well. If it were me I’d try to find one that was all original.

[cruisebone]

Thanks.
My brother is a NYC trumpet player and I've been in touch with a couple of his friends who are top NYC trombone players (commercial, not orchestral), and just got off the phone with a third player (all of whom are probably members here so I won't say who), and that is the same comment I've heard from them.

BUT, how hard could it be to put the slide back to the original width?

The horn is pretty hard to find, as noted above by BGuttman, so that in and of itself is rather intriguing to me. I wasn't looking for a 34 and randomly came across it while searching for a 36.

My twin is actually going to be at the store that you probably correctly identified in a couple of days, along with another legendary NYC trumpet player who is a total gear head, and they are both going to check it out for me.

Thanks for your reply!
JW

[Burgerbob]

I can't imagine where you would find an original 34 crook or even a good replacement. I don't think it's a shared part with the 36.

[biggiesmalls]

I have an all-original, unmolested 34 that would be willing to part with for the right price. PM me if you're interested.

[cruisebone]

PM sent

[Matt K]

What types of playing would you be using it for? Obviously you’re after something fairly rare since you’re lining yourself to my Vernon and NY Bachs. I hate to take torches to horns like that unless it needs it. If you wanted something with a wider crook, might behoove you to get one that’s already in that configuration anyway.

It looks like the 34 purchase might work out which is great. But if it doesn’t, I might suggest a more recent 36. You can get them for a much better price. Brassark sells a 36 mt Vernon leadpipe replica that you could swap the original for, and the crook could be replaced by a wider one (you can order just a slide crook from Shires or Edwards, maybe M&W too?) that is in the wide configuration. That slide should be compatible with older bell sections. Then you can expand your search to Mt tenon bells, bell sections, or whole horns. And it would mean not needing to take a torch to an original slide. Fwiw

If it’s more commercial and you want something just from the general era, the Medium bore conns are highly regarded. Or perhaps a King 3B+. They’re different than the 36 for sure but have a smaller feel than the 36.

[elmsandr]

So, I don't have a 36 at the moment to compare it to... but I do have a 34. In the past, 36s to me always felt a little 'neither fish nor fowl' in that they were not big and they were not little. The 34 feels like a big small horn to me. Which is funny and probably just a placebo to me, because it is pretty much a 36 with a slightly different flare. Sure the bore is 0.003" smaller, but the leadpipe* is the same. I don't know about the slide crook; this makes me think that we need to blueprint this and see what it is and compare (handslide crook isn't on the shop cards). I don't know why we wouldn't think it is NOT a shared part with the 36... V.B. was cheap as %#$^ and did not make new tooling unless necessary; see the entire existence of the 36 and 42s for reference. Looking at the shop card for mine, I don't think the slide width on there is even correct. It says 3 3/4 (like 42s and 50s); I don't think that slide is that wide-- I'd wager it is 3 3/16ths like 36s and smaller.

*Do note that the leadpipe number being the same means only that ones made near each other are nominally the same. Bach would update his tooling, but keep the same number so vintage can matter. For a complicated deep dive, read the 'Bachology' articles on the C trumpet design to get an idea of how things updated there.

Cheers,
Andy

[octavposaune]

Andy,

Shop card slide widths are center to center, not inner span.

MV slide crooks were different than Elkhart production as well. I am not sure there were NY 34s, but there were a few Elkhart 34s made.

The bell on 34s was supposed to be a tad smaller throated than a 36, but I bet many are made on the 36/42 mandrel. 34s were also supposed to have a thin (lightweight) bell.

Benn

[elmsandr]

Andy,

Shop card slide widths are center to center, not inner span

Yup, just noting that I remember mine as a narrow slide. Enough that I don't use one of the leather grips that I have even though the raw finish makes my hands stink after playing it. The leather grip doesn't fit, and it would if it were the same width as all my other slides.

...
MV slide crooks were different than Elkhart production as well. I am not sure there were NY 34s, but there were a few Elkhart 34s made.
...

Interesting, we really should map out this crook and see what it is. There are at least two NY 34s still out there, mine and another I've seen on FB.

Bach 34 Serial No 37xx Engraving.JPG

Shop card has mine sold in '51 and re-sold in '52; so from a bit before the move to Mt.Vernon.

Cheers,
Andy

[cruisebone]

WOW!!

[Rundquist]

I just heard that one of my hero’s played a Bach 34. I played a gig tonight with Dan Weinstein. He’s an LA trombonist who happens to be the nephew of Mark Weinstein.

Mark was a New York trombonist in the 60’s that would play with Eddie Palmieri’s La Perfecta. Dan told me that his uncle and Barry Rogers (who is pretty much the greatest salsa trombonist of all time) both played Bach 34’s. I used to wonder what he played.

The subject came about because Dan told me he sold his Bach 34 to a student and he wished he hadn’t. Then he told me about his uncle and Barry’s horns.

It’s kind of ironic to me that my hero played on an instrument that I kind of dismissed as being unsuitable for me. I had a brand new Bach 36 which I played for a number of years before getting rid of because I wasn’t playing it much, if at all. I found the King 2b and 3b much more suited to Latin music (basically all I do) than the Bach 36. I still feel that way. Still, I’d like to try a Bach 34 for the hell of it.

[sf105]

There was a 34 going in the UK that I tried out side by side with a friend with a NY 36. Great little horn, held together at volume and easy to play. In the end, after comparing that 34 with that 36, I returned it because I'm looking for something a bit darker that I can use on the kind of orchestra gigs that I do (i.e. not professional). I still wonder if I was being too picky.

[tbdana]

I think it's a distinction without a difference. The 36 is a "gap model" at this point in time. Its usefulness is either marginal or amazing, depending on your philosophy. But in all practical reality, I can't imagine that in today's trombone world a 34 is going to be a better choice than a 36 in any but the most peculiar situations.

But then, my own philosophy is that you find the horn that works well for you in the situation you have and you play that horn for a very long time, until you and the horn are like an old married couple. And that if you feel that a 34 will solve a problem you're having on a 36, the problem is likely you and not the horn.

[Elow]

I love my 34 bell, it is quite special though, and I play it with a shires .508 slide. I guess it’s not comparable, plays great though. 8 inch red brass bell, .508 nickel silver outers and yellow crook. Sounds great on mics, not punchy enough for playing lead though.

[RJMason]

34s also suffer from the same deal as all Bachs…every one plays a little differently. I’ve played a couple MV 34s that I did not dig at all, though I am a true Bach 36 lover and believer in its practical application. There have been two, including one that was stamped NY (not mtV) with an asymmetrical tuning slide that was marvelous, I kept thinking “galactic”. To my ears, it was one of those elusive Conn/Bach hybrids in terms of overtones and sound palette. It was (understandably) not for sale.

I’ve never gotten to play a 34B and though they’ve always been on my bucket list, I’ve always been tied up with other horns at the time and couldn’t afford the purchase. Maybe one day, but doubtful that I have the time and energy to travel that path. Ultimately there are way more 36Bs and even Conn 79Hs out there to take for a spin and scratch that itch.

[RJMason]

I love my 34 bell, it is quite special though, and I play it with a shires .508 slide. I guess it’s not comparable, plays great though. 8 inch red brass bell, .508 nickel silver outers and yellow crook. Sounds great on mics, not punchy enough for playing lead though.

I remember this one, glad it made its way to the states. It was stamped Zurich, correct? Very cool.

[Elow]

Yup, the store that is stamped on the bell is still in business. I’ve thought about calling and seeing if they have any info, the language would be a bit of a barrier though

[johntarr]

Yup, the store that is stamped on the bell is still in business. I’ve thought about calling and seeing if they have any info, the language would be a bit of a barrier though

Most Swiss, especially those who work in the music industry speak English pretty well. I don’t think the language would be barrier. I used to live in Basel and frequented the store there. In Zürich it will probably be difficult to find someone working there who would know about the horn.

Just my two cents,

John

[SwissTbone]

Most Swiss, especially those who work in the music industry speak English pretty well. I don’t think the language would be barrier.

Correct. And if that doesn't work out, I'm happy to help.

[dukesboneman]

I had 2 friends, years ago, that both played Mount Vernon 34`s. One played a 12C and the other played a copy of an Olds 1. They both sounded amazing. I tried both of their horns and it was heaven. At That time I was playing a Conn 78H with a 7C. These horn were magical.
A friend of mine has a 34 from the 1990`s. NOT So much. Very bright and tight.