The Problem With Trombone Players

[tbdana]

The problem with trombone players: A rant.

trombone obsession.jpg

Trombonists have trombones like dogs have fleas. It seems like every time a trombonist clips a note they want to change their mouthpiece, lead pipe, or horn. They want a different trombone for every occasion. Trombonists are obsessed with equipment in a never-ending quest for the perfect performance.

Well, I've got news for you: It's not the equipment. It's you. If trombonists spent half the time they spend obsessing over equipment and put that energy into their playing, instead, they would be far better off.
Yeah, you need a couple of horns: a large bore tenor and a small bore tenor. Maybe an alto trombone if that's your thing, maybe a bass trombone if that's your thing. (Bass trombone players can be forgiven for coveting a contra-bass trombone.)

And most trombonists spend their whole lives concentrating with laser-like focus on "playing the trombone," when that's not the goal, at all. Every neuron in their brain is focused on getting just the right sound, playing every passage perfectly, with just the right technique, and finding solutions for each challenging moment. And in so doing, all they ever become is a proficient machine operator.

But a few -- a very few -- eventually discover the secret. It's not about your trombone, your bore size, your lead pipe, or your mouthpiece. It's you. It's you and it's the music, and it's the marrying of the two. The trombone is utterly irrelevant, just a translation mechanism.

To my mind, the goal isn't to focus on the trombone or playing the trombone, it's to forget that the trombone exists. The goal is not to even play the trombone, the goal is to play the MUSIC. Music comes from the soul, not the trombone. And the soul is in the player, not the hunk of metal. The trombone is only the microphone for the soul, and who pays attention to the microphone? At its purist, the trombone is just an extension of the body, and should get no more conscious attention than your beating heart or your digestive system.

If we work long enough and hard enough at playing the trombone, our ultimate reward is to be able to NOT play the trombone, and just play music. Every thought about playing the trombone interferes with the music.

Trombone players are machine operators, nothing more. Musicians are artists. Every once in a while, a person graduates from machine operator to artist, but they are few. And in so doing, one must forget everything one has worked so hard for so many decades to learn.

/rant

[Fidbone]

The problem with trombone players: A rant.





Trombonists have trombones like dogs have fleas. It seems like every time a trombonist clips a note they want to change their mouthpiece, lead pipe, or horn. They want a different trombone for every occasion. Trombonists are obsessed with equipment in a never-ending quest for the perfect performance.

/rant

…… And trumpet players even more so

[ghmerrill]

Maybe so. But wow! What a cool hat!!

[JohnL]

I see a woman holding a trombone; I cannot say for certain that she is actually playing it.

She is holding it "correctly", and her embouchure looks OK, so it's probable that she at least has a passing familiarity with the instrument.

She's wearing a uniform, and that uniform looks to be fitted to her, so it may well be hers rather than just a costume for a photo shoot. Dang, that's a tiny waist; maybe she's wearing a corset? Yikes! Playing trombone while wearing a corset?

I do notice the S-shaped bell brace; that tells me the instrument probably dates back to the early 20th century, if not before. That, along with other clues, leads me to think that this is an actual vintage image, not a modern recreation (if it is a recreation, it was done with remarkable attention to detail).

I wonder about the backstory of the photograph. Who is she? Where and when was image taken? Was she a member of one the many ladies' bands that operated during that era? Could she have been an itinerant soloist, traveling from town to town, playing with the local bands as a novelty (and frustrated as all h*ll at being viewed as such rather than as the talented musician she was)?

I did try a reverse image search, but that came up with a bunch of only vaguely similar photographs.

[chouston3]

I remember hearing a quote by someone who said that before word processors, writers talked about writing. After word processors, writers talked about their computers and software.

Was there a point in history where trombonists talked about music instead of horns?

[tbdana]

I am at my worst when I am concentrating on playing well. I am at my best when I'm not even aware I'm playing a trombone. Does this make any sense?

[ghmerrill]

…… And trumpet players even more so

I'm not sure that there's a discernible difference among euphonium and tuba players as well -- or in general among people who use one or more "tools" critical to their professions, hobbies, or (genuine or perceived) needs. If I could just get a light-weight but powerful 3/8"-1/2" hammer drill, my life would be much closer to being complete. I finally did buy a digital caliper that reads in either metric (mm/cm), decimal inches, and fractional inches (!), and I'm pretty sure I heard some sort of heavenly chorus break into song the first time I used it for fractional inch measurements.

[ghmerrill]

I am at my worst when I am concentrating on playing well. I am at my best when I'm not even aware I'm playing a trombone. Does this make any sense?

Absolutely. That's why you need to find THE PERFECT TROMBONE (and mouthpiece, and case for it, and ...)! You're probably not sufficiently focused on the equipment in order to achieve that goal. Once you get just the right gear, you can be totally unaware of using it.

I know the reason I'm not doing as well as I could is that I decided not to drop $5,000 on a new trombone, but to continue using my $500 sort of "kit" bass trombone.

[tbdana]

I am at my worst when I am concentrating on playing well. I am at my best when I'm not even aware I'm playing a trombone. Does this make any sense?

Absolutely. That's why you need to find THE PERFECT TROMBONE (and mouthpiece, and case for it, and ...)! You're probably not sufficiently focused on the equipment in order to achieve that goal. Once you get just the right gear, you can be totally unaware of using it.

I know the reason I'm not doing as well as I could is that I decided not to drop $5,000 on a new trombone, but to continue using my $500 sort of "kit" bass trombone.

You get me. Sniff!

[blast]

A very funny rant with much truth in it.

[tbdana]

I remember hearing a quote by someone who said that before word processors, writers talked about writing. After word processors, writers talked about their computers and software.

Was there a point in history where trombonists talked about music instead of horns?

Yeah. Before trombones.

[ghmerrill]

Yeah. Before trombones.

So those would be "proto-trombonists" -- possibly including early homo sapiens, Neanderthals, and Denisovans. These were probably focused on the possibility of refining "lithics" as (very remote, probably more percussion-oriented) precursors to proto-trombones. Indeed, we have substantial evidence that even these populations were quite picky concerning the selection of the lithic substance (we could informally call this "rocks" or "rock types") to satisfy their needs.

[Savio]

The problem with trombone players: A rant.


trombone obsession.jpg


Trombonists have trombones like dogs have fleas. It seems like every time a trombonist clips a note they want to change their mouthpiece, lead pipe, or horn. They want a different trombone for every occasion. Trombonists are obsessed with equipment in a never-ending quest for the perfect performance.

Well, I've got news for you: It's not the equipment. It's you. If trombonists spent half the time they spend obsessing over equipment and put that energy into their playing, instead, they would be far better off.
Yeah, you need a couple of horns: a large bore tenor and a small bore tenor. Maybe an alto trombone if that's your thing, maybe a bass trombone if that's your thing. (Bass trombone players can be forgiven for coveting a contra-bass trombone.)

And most trombonists spend their whole lives concentrating with laser-like focus on "playing the trombone," when that's not the goal, at all. Every neuron in their brain is focused on getting just the right sound, playing every passage perfectly, with just the right technique, and finding solutions for each challenging moment. And in so doing, all they ever become is a proficient machine operator.

But a few -- a very few -- eventually discover the secret. It's not about your trombone, your bore size, your lead pipe, or your mouthpiece. It's you. It's you and it's the music, and it's the marrying of the two. The trombone is utterly irrelevant, just a translation mechanism.

To my mind, the goal isn't to focus on the trombone or playing the trombone, it's to forget that the trombone exists. The goal is not to even play the trombone, the goal is to play the MUSIC. Music comes from the soul, not the trombone. And the soul is in the player, not the hunk of metal. The trombone is only the microphone for the soul, and who pays attention to the microphone? At its purist, the trombone is just an extension of the body, and should get no more conscious attention than your beating heart or your digestive system.

If we work long enough and hard enough at playing the trombone, our ultimate reward is to be able to NOT play the trombone, and just play music. Every thought about playing the trombone interferes with the music.

Trombone players are machine operators, nothing more. Musicians are artists. Every once in a while, a person graduates from machine operator to artist, but they are few. And in so doing, one must forget everything one has worked so hard for so many decades to learn.

/rant

I liked that post from Dana! And I'm guilty. Some periods I did change mouthpieces as often as I change socks. It helped to change socks, but didn't help so much to change equipment. It's a "rant" from Dana and there is wisdom in it. But we don't want to go back where it was only Bach, Schilke and Conn? The good thing about fewer options is we learned to play what we had in our hands. Consistently. Today there is so many options we can use all our life to just explore equipment. Instead of exploring music. It has to be an balance, but I'm tempted to try everything if had a chance.

Leif

[LeTromboniste]

And most trombonists spend their whole lives concentrating with laser-like focus on "playing the trombone," when that's not the goal, at all. Every neuron in their brain is focused on getting just the right sound, playing every passage perfectly, with just the right technique, and finding solutions for each challenging moment. And in so doing, all they ever become is a proficient machine operator.

[...]

To my mind, the goal isn't to focus on the trombone or playing the trombone, it's to forget that the trombone exists. The goal is not to even play the trombone, the goal is to play the MUSIC. Music comes from the soul, not the trombone. And the soul is in the player, not the hunk of metal. The trombone is only the microphone for the soul, and who pays attention to the microphone? At its purist, the trombone is just an extension of the body, and should get no more conscious attention than your beating heart or your digestive system.

If we work long enough and hard enough at playing the trombone, our ultimate reward is to be able to NOT play the trombone, and just play music. Every thought about playing the trombone interferes with the music.

Trombone players are machine operators, nothing more. Musicians are artists. Every once in a while, a person graduates from machine operator to artist, but they are few. And in so doing, one must forget everything one has worked so hard for so many decades to learn.

/rant

[LeTromboniste]

(I'm not 100% convinced of the causality between interest in gear and the rest of your rant – some of the most artistic trombonists I know also have/had huge collections of instruments and a high curiosity for how differently each play and sound – but in terms of the mindset difference between the obsession with playing in a way that is "trombonistically" good versus focusing on music, absolutely spot-on)

[BrassSection]

Feel confident on all my instruments as is, with one exception. I have one one of each I use all the time:Trumpet, tenor trombone with no F attachment, and 4 valve euphonium. These are my go to horns every week, song selection determines which horn gets used based on my interpretation. Occasionally I’ll bounce my choices off my trumpet/bass guitar playing grandson, or our drummer who is a local high school band director and a tuba player. Biggest things I’ve switched thru the years is valve oil and slide lube. Been settled on both of those for awhile now.

French horn gets used maybe every 4 to 6 weeks. Like me, it’s old, ugly, and still works. If I was strictly playing French horn I’d dump the old single horn with mechanical valve linkage for a nice Holton double horn like my daughter has. I can’t justify that purchase for one song every so often, and nobody else even hears the mechanical valve linkage.

Old Conn tuba a keeper. Sweet sound as is, only comes out for occasional ensemble.

So what’s my obsession: Listening to some great musicians for inspiration of new styles of playing…not exact, but with my twist. I’ve always found my playing ability increases when I’m playing with better musicians. Seems to give me more confidence than being the only brass player in the group.

[TomInME]

I'll bet there are as many bass trombones owned by tenor players as there are owned by bass players.

[atopper333]

To my mind, the goal isn't to focus on the trombone or playing the trombone, it's to forget that the trombone exists. The goal is not to even play the trombone, the goal is to play the MUSIC. Music comes from the soul, not the trombone. And the soul is in the player, not the hunk of metal. The trombone is only the microphone for the soul, and who pays attention to the microphone? At its purist, the trombone is just an extension of the body, and should get no more conscious attention than your beating heart or your digestive system.

If we work long enough and hard enough at playing the trombone, our ultimate reward is to be able to NOT play the trombone, and just play music. Every thought about playing the trombone interferes with the music.

I do fall into the gear trap. My selection of the gear I keep is definitely not based on can ‘a‘ equipment get me to be able to do ‘x’? It’s more based on…does it sound good. Is the core tone good, are the overtones and depth of sound there? If yes, then I can work on all the rest through solid practice. Do some trombones (or tools) make the job easier? Yes! The Shires horn I tried was great, excellent slide, easy to play, all that good stuff, but it just didn’t have that…sound my King 4BF has. I have to work harder for it, but it is so much more worth it because of the beauty of the sound I can project with it.

I think the gear is maybe more than a piece of metal, it is something I feel you have to develop a relationship with. Maybe not a microphone, but maybe an amplifier to what the soul is trying to convey?

In the end it isn’t the equipment that we are left that gives us the feeling, it is the one who played it. I will go on to inherit my father’s Holton TR-158 that he took to state and kicked butt with and played beautifully on. I will always remember his sound, but when he is gone, that horn will never sound the same again because it just won’t be him playing it. I’m sure someone could make it sound beautiful, I have no doubt about that, but it won’t be the same.

“Life is not a game, it’s a song” -FFDP “Brighter Side of Grey”

[WilliamLang]

I think the biggest problem with trombonists is self-loathing sometimes.

[tbdana]

I think the biggest problem with trombonists is self-loathing sometimes.

Really? That's an interesting comment. What do you mean? I'd like to hear more.

[ghmerrill]

Really? That's an interesting comment. What do you mean? I'd like to hear more.

Oddly, that's exactly the kind of comment that the old "Eliza" AI application (circa 1970s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA) used to make when running its DOCTOR simulation program. Are you sure you're not an AI? How would you know?

[tbdana]

Oddly, that's exactly the kind of comment that the old "Eliza" AI application (circa 1970s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA) used to make when running its DOCTOR simulation program. Are you sure you're not an AI? How would you know?

I know I'm not an AI because I don't have much of the "I" part of that.

[chouston3]

Some musicians are hyper critical of themselves. This helps when you are practicing music. But when it starts to leach out into everything else it gets unhealthy.

[WilliamLang]

I've noticed that we tend to tell ourselves a lot of stories about how our instrument holds us back. But the instrument we hold doesn't define who we intrinsically are. When I did big solo competitions for all instruments like Concert Artists Guild or Astral Artists, I'd always hit this point where I was a finalist, or even won the playing round (at Astral twice) but was denied a spot on the roster. When I asked, I mostly just got told "You play trombone." and that was the end of it, unless they made a comment about my weight or appearance, which was always fun.

It always just seemed like the dumbest comment to make - who cares what instrument someone is holding? If Yo-Yo Ma grew up playing Tuba instead of Cello, guess what, he's still Yo-Yo Ma! I think we have a ton of people in trombone land who are just as great of a musician, but if there's no outlet, acceptance, or opportunity of that being possible, we can't reasonable expect to achieve that. Lindberg pretty much did it through relentlessness and refusal to accept, but he was struggling like crazy for quite a long time, as he himself talks about.

I'm not saying we all have to act like Lindberg, but as a community, if we talked and believed that we deserve a seat at any musical table there is, it would become easier to close that gap between people's innate musical potential and their perceived "trombonist potential."

I think the biggest problem with trombonists is self-loathing sometimes.

Really? That's an interesting comment. What do you mean? I'd like to hear more.

[harrisonreed]

https://suno.com/song/7706d223-a87d-451 ... 9ca7712b15

[tbdana]

https://suno.com/song/7706d223-a87d-451 ... 9ca7712b15

OMFG! There's something really wrong with you, man.

[harrisonreed]

https://suno.com/song/7706d223-a87d-451 ... 9ca7712b15

OMFG! There's something really wrong with you, man.

You say that ... But that's what you get when you put your OP in as a prompt for the AI to write a country song about....

Those lyrics are distilled from your knowledge.

All great movements need a great song!

[Doug Elliott]

Waiting for Chis Bill's version of that.
Or Finetale's...

[tkelley216]

I agree with the OP post, but to be fair, just about every profession that doubles as a sport or hobby is going to have people focused on the equipment as much as or more than the actual activity. Think about how much money people spend on golf clubs, road bikes, cookware, even just shoes and clothes for running....

Professionals can make anything sound good and can get discounts/free instruments. Amateurs/hobbyists with real jobs can spend their money on whatever they want. The focus on equipment is mostly detrimental to students and younger professionals who think they need a particular setup or sound to get work or win auditions.

[harrisonreed]

The focus on equipment is mostly detrimental to students and younger professionals who think they need a particular setup or sound to get work or win auditions.

Well.....

I mean, they're not entirely wrong. But that doesn't mean we should be happy about it

[Posaunus]

https://suno.com/song/7706d223-a87d-451 ... 9ca7712b15

Almost as much fun as making your own mouthpieces?

[Kbiggs]

A very funny rant with much truth in it.

Yes. And if you’ll pardon my tangent on a slightly more serious take on this…

There’s something to be said for being a solid craftsman (craftsperson?). You know: the kind of person who can step in at a moment’s notice to play a concert or a show and just play the gig. That individual might be hyper-aware of everything during the performance. (They would need to be if they were sight-reading!) They likely wouldn’t attain that rarified level of playing “without effort,” or making music as a musician (or an “artist”), but they wouldn’t sound like the run-of-the-mill “dumb trombone player,” either.

And yet… to whom would it matter? If the individual stepped in, nailed the performance, played musically, and appeared to play with only the energy needed to for a great performance, what would it matter if their inner dialogue was, well, messy? (Meditation is pretty messy, after all. The myth of the guru sitting calmly on a mountain top with a mind that is calm and totally at peace is just that.) If they play convincingly without attaining “musicial nirvana,” so to speak, does that lessen the performance?

Give me a skilled craftsman who has the right tools for the job; plays on time, in tune, and in the proper style; and gets along with the rest of the band and the crew.

That, and I’ll take a 12C for the road, please.

[imsevimse]

I agree with the op that gear are not the solution. A mouthpiece that plays itself do not exist and if you think a professional sound is granted if you get that expensive special horn you do not own then you better practice instead. I have a huge collection of horns, old horns, not new fancy horns. Why do I buy the old horns that other people sell? Is it because I think they will solve my musical problems? No, it's because I'm interested in all those old horns. I like to play them to learn how to play them. I do not expect they solve anything. They are infact harder to play, because the slides might be more heavy and their "sound" a bit dated. Some never leave the house because they are to different. It's an interest to own and play old horns and to buy and try leadpipes/mouthpieces and other new tools. Curiosity is what it is. Then there are every different reason I can think of to own a particular trombone. All isn't just about making music, not for me. If I have a gig I have my preferences, then I use the instruments I really need. It could be the ones I'm most comfortable to play. If I need the money I will sell the rest.

/Tom

[ghmerrill]

Curiosity is what it is.

Knowledge acquisition is what it (also) is.

[hyperbolica]

I obsess about how the whole thing feels. I have no illusion that I'm ever going to play better, I just want it to feel good.

[tbdana]

I agree with the op that gear are not the solution. A mouthpiece that plays itself do not exist and if you think a professional sound is granted if you get that expensive special horn you do not own then you better practice instead. I have a huge collection of horns, old horns, not new fancy horns. Why do I buy the old horns that other people sell? Is it because I think they will solve my musical problems? No, it's because I'm interested in all those old horns. I like to play them to learn hiw to play them. I do not expect they solve anything. They are infact harder to play, because the slides might be more heavy and their "sound" a bit dated. Some never leave the house because tgdy are to different. It's an interest to own and play old horns and to buy and try leadpipes/moutgpieces and other new tools. Curiosity is what it is. Then there are every different reason I can think of to own a particular trombone. All isn't just about making music, not for me. If I have a gig I have my preferences, then I use the instruments I really need. It could be the ones I'm most comfortable to play. If I need the money I will sell the rest.

Just repeating what Tom said above because I don't disagree with it. There is a place for fine craftsmen. In fact, most professional trombonists are probably craftsmen. Craftsmen of wood and steel make everything we rely on. Being a great craftsman is something to be proud of.

[iranzi]

I am at my worst when I am concentrating on playing well. I am at my best when I'm not even aware I'm playing a trombone. Does this make any sense?

Makes total sense to me. Really enjoyed reading the rant!

[Cmillar]

I had a teacher who once said (and he re-quoted another source):

A good trombone is like a good tennis raquet. The raquet will always be better than the player. It will always win. We have to learn how to use it in order to play the game. Keep our eye on the ball.

[ghmerrill]

A good trombone is like a good tennis raquet. The raquet will always be better than the player.

Yeah, but it's not the racquet. It's the string(ing).

[iranzi]

deletesd

[tbdana]

I don’t know. I have always felt that the horn should be an extension of your body, something you can control with little thought. A relationship that is cooperative. The only thing you need is a horn of sufficient quality that it does not limit you.

[iranzi]

deleted

[tbdana]

Sometimes I'll get out my horn to warm up before a rehearsal or a gig, and I will ask out loud, "Okay, are we going to be friends or enemies today?"

[iranzi]

deleted

[Posaunus]

Sometimes I'll get out my horn to warm up before a rehearsal or a gig, and I will ask out loud, "Okay, are we going to be friends or enemies today?"

Just keep telling her that you love her.

[Cmillar]

Or, as Dave Taylor says: "It's all about the process...that's the thing....the process"

[Doug Elliott]

The way I think about it is "Tell the horn what to do, don't let it tell you."

[Cmillar]

The way I think about it is "Tell the horn what to do, don't let it tell you."

Yes. In the trombone world, there are certain schools of pedagogy that seem to have the premise that the trombone can only be played by approaching music making as if we're just 'automatons' that have to play the exact same routines in the exact same order before we can even attempt to make music on the horn or even dare try to 'tell the horn what to do'.

There are many 'enlightened teachers' around the world, but I can just name a couple that I have had lessons with who approach the end result (the goal of actually making music) in similar, but different, means.

They both know the importance of "processes" and will open the doors to alternate ways of approaching the trombone by prescribing "processes" (both physical and mental) that are best suited and can be tailored for the individual who is intent of creating music....you and Dave Taylor.

Your mentor, Donald Reinhardt, has been well documented.

Dave Taylor would talk about his mentor, Davis Shuman, in glowing terms. Dave said he admired the way that Shuman was just all about 'The Music', and was relentless in his quest to play solos and "telling the horn what to do" by even coming up with new designs. Dave says people laughed at Shuman and hated his playing, but Dave would say that he was the biggest influence on him as far as instilling "the process".
Dave would say in a lesson that you have to adapt his own exercises to your own individual physical makeup, and would make suggestions and give you new ways of thinking.

And, you're helping trombone players "tell the horn what to do" with your mouthpiece designs and custom set ups for the individual, which have helped thousands of musicians around the world begin to "tell the horn what to do" along with the properly prescribed "processes".

Part of "The Problem with Trombone Players" is that university/college/conservatory students don't get enough exposure to alternate pedagogical methodologies, at least here in North America. There are only a couple of 'schools of thought' that predominate on how things 'are supposed to be done'.

[iranzi]

When I did big solo competitions for all instruments like Concert Artists Guild or Astral Artists, I'd always hit this point where I was a finalist, or even won the playing round (at Astral twice) but was denied a spot on the roster. When I asked, I mostly just got told "You play trombone." and that was the end of it, unless they made a comment about my weight or appearance, which was always fun.

OMG!!! i always feel really sorry for the musicians undergoing such treatment...
Must be part of these institutions' policy of «commitment to Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion» + a way of boosting artists’ confidence and self esteem by way of a «positive impact».
Right now Astral Artists are busy «closing it’s doors» in a «thoughtful and compassionate» way https://tinyurl.com/kk93uxhu & https://tinyurl.com/4awzc47d
(Thank god i don't have to deal with anyone that has power over my music making. Apart from my neighbours — they do have some limited power over my practice schedule )

[iranzi]

Wasn't able to find the lady's name in the original post's photo, or whether she was a trombone player.
But stumbled upon this fascinating article https://tinyurl.com/5mrtd55y
about (white) women brass soloists in the 19th & early 20th centuries. Many trombone photos, especially from p.65 (although may not be strictly relevant to this thread's discussions)