Restoring an original tenor sackbut from 1671

[slipmo]

This is a shoutout to Aron Vajna https://en.vajnainstruments.ch/ who did an absolutely marvelous job restoring my original sackbut from 1671. Here's a full write up about it at my virtual museum as well as some photos for your enjoyment!

https://brassark.com/museum_horns/jacob ... irca-1671/

[Doug Elliott]

Wow, incredible!
What is the purpose of the rings on the inside of the crooks?

[LeTromboniste]

This is absolutely amazing. I'm not sure there are any other originals that are privately owned by players and being played regularly.

The hinge has a screw instead of a pin?? Wow! Interesting!

Wow, incredible!
What is the purpose of the rings on the inside of the crooks?

Nobody quite knows. Basically every original has those, for a couple centuries at least. Trumpets do to. On trumpets you would assume it is to attach a banner (also, the front ring is often where the tassel hangs, and also also, typically aligns with the hole in the bell rim where the front bow can be tied to the bell). But on the trombone you obviously can't attach a banner! Nor do you need to tie a bow to the bell. Some have suggested a rope or string would be attached to the ring all the way from the stays, to keep the bow in place since it's not soldered, but no instrument survives with such strings (whereas there are trumpet with their original ropes and tassels), and also, it's really not needed as everything is friction-fit. If you need a string to keep it from falling off, you've got other problems!

[LetItSlide]

Chills.

[slipmo]

Hey Max! The screw/pin is really remarkable that it even survives first off, but also a bit of a mystery. It has those hand cut threads/grooves in it, but it is a tapered pin and the cuts aren't deep enough to actually have any kind of threading/locking function... I assume it was to add some kind of extra friction or stability to the hinge... an oddity for sure!

[Dennis]

It's beautiful, Noah.

One question about your museum write-up. You say:

The bell is in its historical 4th position, and the instrument plays at A466 (Bb 440).

440 Hz is right on a semitone below 466 in 12 ET. Bb is a semitone up from 466 Hz, which is a couple of cents below 494 Hz.

[Klimchak]

That is beautiful and a remarkable restoration.

[LeTromboniste]

It's beautiful, Noah.

One question about your museum write-up. You say:

The bell is in its historical 4th position, and the instrument plays at A466 (Bb 440).

440 Hz is right on a semitone below 466 in 12 ET. Bb is a semitone up from 466 Hz, which is a couple of cents below 494 Hz.

The frequency of Bb at a=440 is 466Hz. A tenor sackbut is historically an instrument in A at a higher performance pitch, but because the modern trombone is learned in Bb, we can naturally also think in Bb. So a sackbut in A at a=466 can also be thought of as in Bb at a=440 (or vice versa), since those are both the same actual frequency.

[LeTromboniste]

Hey Max! The screw/pin is really remarkable that it even survives first off, but also a bit of a mystery. It has those hand cut threads/grooves in it, but it is a tapered pin and the cuts aren't deep enough to actually have any kind of threading/locking function... I assume it was to add some kind of extra friction or stability to the hinge... an oddity for sure!

I see! Yes I would think that helps with friction. It's a common problem for newly-made hinge pins that they don't grip enough. I have colleagues whose hinge pins keep falling off in their cases. On my bass I had the problem that at certain performance pitches there was a node right by the hinge and it would very loudly buzz on specific notes.

Other idea, those grooves might also have been put there as small channels to hold onto beeswax or some other compound (waxing the pin is a common solution to make sure it stays in place, but with a smooth pin it's tricky)

[NotSkilledHere]

That is absolutely beautiful!

[Dennis]

The frequency of Bb at a=440 is 466Hz. A tenor sackbut is historically an instrument in A at a higher performance pitch, but because the modern trombone is learned in Bb, we can naturally also think in Bb. So a sackbut in A at a=466 can also be thought of as in Bb at a=440 (or vice versa), since those are both the same actual frequency.

Got it, Max.

Thanks for the clear explanation. I knew that historically the tenor sackbut was considered an A instrument, but I had not thought about a modern player thinking of it in Bb, like his Bach/King/Holton/Yamaha/etc.

It makes sense now.

Can you tell I don't play early instruments?

[SamBTbrn]

This is absolutely amazing. I'm not sure there are any other originals that are privately owned by players and being played regularly.

The hinge has a screw instead of a pin?? Wow! Interesting!

Wow, incredible!
What is the purpose of the rings on the inside of the crooks?

Nobody quite knows. Basically every original has those, for a couple centuries at least. Trumpets do to. On trumpets you would assume it is to attach a banner (also, the front ring is often where the tassel hangs, and also also, typically aligns with the hole in the bell rim where the front bow can be tied to the bell). But on the trombone you obviously can't attach a banner! Nor do you need to tie a bow to the bell. Some have suggested a rope or string would be attached to the ring all the way from the stays, to keep the bow in place since it's not soldered, but no instrument survives with such strings (whereas there are trumpet with their original ropes and tassels), and also, it's really not needed as everything is friction-fit. If you need a string to keep it from falling off, you've got other problems!

Amazing work Noah and Aron, it looks great!

Unfortunaly at the moment we can't really know for sure. while there are drawings and paintings of different ensembles (some nice ones of the Nurnmberg stadtpfeife) there are only a small handful that show the back part of the trombone in great, specific detail, where you can see a ring.

You could be forgiven for thinking however that if the trumpets had tassels for special events or to show off the city colours etc that the trombones would also sport a tassel from the bow. That makes logical sense.

The counter argument against this, and a valid one, is that no paintings or drawings, and there are lots of them, show a trombone with a tassel hanging off the back. These artists we not lazy in their paintings, some of them are absolutely exquisite in their detail, especially in the clothing. So if there was a nice tassel there, would have it been painted? Probably.

A counter argument to the counter argument is, well there are also hardly any paintings showing trumpets with flags or tassels. A fair point, however, there are a handful that do show this. Soo again, its all just guess work.

What have I done with my bow ring? Well, something that I think is pretty cool.
On my instrument (a replica of the Hans Hainlein Bassposaune from 1631) I have hung a silver Nurnmberg Pfennig (penny) that was made in 1631 the same year as the original instrument, at the Nurnmberg mint, which was located along the same street in Nurnmberg as the workshop of the Hainlein family, where the original instrument was made.

1631 coin.jpg

1631 coin 2.jpg

[Kbiggs]

Stunning.

How does it sound and play?

[Doug Elliott]

Can't get any better than that.