trombone sound too "aggressive"?

[brassmedic]

Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.

I have tried several Josef Klier mouthpieces, and enjoy playing them. One should not in any way try to compare their numbering system with Bach's; Klier's is different - more systematic, more sophisticated, and more comprehensive.

To simplify a bit, Klier's Cup letters are tied to the Throat bore, as follows:
BK: Very Deep; 7.6 mm Throat
A: Very Deep; 7.2 mm Throat
B: Deep; 6.8 mm Throat
C: Middle; 6.4 mm Throat
D: Shallow; 6.0 mm Throat
E: Very Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
F: Extremely Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat

Klier's Cup numbers refer to the Cup (Inner Rim) Diameter
For instance, in the "C" series (Large or Small Shank):
1C: 28.00 mm Cup
2C: 27.50 mm Cup
3C: 27.00 mm Cup
4C: 26.50 mm Cup
5C: 26.00 mm Cup
6C: 25.75 mm Cup
7C: 25.50 mm Cup
8C: 25.25 mm Cup
9C: 25.00 mm Cup
10C: 24.50 mm Cup

So: A Klier "C" cup is "medium" depth - in large bore pieces just a touch shallower than a Bach "G" cup,
and a Klier "B" Cup is deeper - perhaps similar to a Bach "G" Cup.
So to make the (somewhat unfair) comparisons (at least on paper, since I haven't done it in real life):
A Klier 7B might resemble a Bach 5G
A Klier 7C might resemble a Bach 6½AL or a Bach 5GS
A Klier 6B might resemble a Schilke 51 or a Bach 5GB
A Klier 6C might resemble a Schilke 51B
A Klier 5B might resemble a Bach 4G or a Schilke D5.2 "Symphony"

So, in general, I agree with Brad (brassmedic): Nomsis should try a slightly larger / deeper large-shank mouthpiece for his wind band than his 6CL. Perhaps a 6BL or a 5BL.

[His "E" cups are (in my opinion) really too shallow for a large-bore trombone.]

I wasn't trying to compare their system to Bach's, I was using their own literature. It says here https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpieces:

The following specifications apply to all JK-USA Line mouthpieces:
A models: deep cups
B models: medium deep cups
C models: medium shallow cups
D models: shallow cups
E models: very shallow cups
W models: with extra-broad rim
Models without letter: medium cups

And here https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone it says, as you pointed out, that is tied with a throat of 6.4 mm, which as I said is pretty small, compared to a Bach 5G, for example, which has a throat of .276" which is 7.0104 mm. Seems strange to tie the cup size to the backbore, but I guess that's what they do.

Have you actually measured the cup depth on these? Because I'm having a hard time believing that JKs "medium shallow" cup is almost as deep as Bach's "deep" cup. I would think the JK would be a great deal more shallow. They do seem to have inner rim diameters that are wider than Bach mouthpieces with the same number, but so do most other makers that use a numerical system like that. And I think the cup depth and the throat are going to affect the brightness of tone more than the inner rim diameter.

[MStarke]

Brassmedic:

He is NOT playing a JK USA line mouthpiece. The mouthpieces named are from the Exclusive line.

There the C cup depths is not unusual for large tenor. People usually play the C or B. The throats are indeed on the smaller end.

I have not listened to the recording yet, but would assume that the challenge does not lie in the equipment.

I have experienced a well-known wind band conductor (funnily also an oboeist) who aimed for basically no edge for the whole orchestra. This leads to a very nice and pleasant overall sound, but somehow missing the extremes and actual climax. I think this is to a degree a tradition in (Central?) European wind band playing.

[brassmedic]

Brassmedic:

He is NOT playing a JK USA line mouthpiece. The mouthpieces named are from the Exclusive line.

There the C cup depths is not unusual for large tenor. People usually play the C or B. The throats are indeed on the smaller end.

Oh, yes I see it now. It's confusing because that same page links to the second page I posted that shows the Exclusive line. But now I see it shows the USA line under that. So would the B cup be similar to a Bach 5G, and the C cup a bit smaller, or are they using a different definition of "deep"?

I have not listened to the recording yet, but would assume that the challenge does not lie in the equipment.

I have experienced a well-known wind band conductor (funnily also an oboeist) who aimed for basically no edge for the whole orchestra. This leads to a very nice and pleasant overall sound, but somehow missing the extremes and actual climax. I think this is to a degree a tradition in (Central?) European wind band playing.

Listen to his recording (not the YouTube recording) and let us know what you think.

[imsevimse]

I just thought about the last time I played in a wind orchestra. I am part of an orchestra that meets twice a year, always in different places around the country where we have a weekend of rehearsals followed by a concert. It is led by a retired professional conductor and the majority of the musicians are currently active or retired musicians from the major orchestras in the country. When those fortissimo parts came, I didn't give all I got but kept quite far from the strongest I could play. This allowed me to learn the part without risking any mistakes that might irritate. When it was time for the dress rehearsal, the conductor stopped us right after our solo and gave some information to the woodwinds and then still loocking att the woodwinds he ended with "and I would like to hear a bit more trombone." I raised my hand and enthusiastically exclaimed, "Excuse me Maestro, did I hear correctly that you want more trombone?" Everyone in the orchestra laughed, probably because I sounded so happy. Even the conductor laughed. The tuba player cheered "Now you get your trombones". After that, I played my fortissimo and the conductor was pleased.

A good conductor knows how a trombone fortissimo should sound, and he also knows when to call for it.

/Tom

[Nomsis]

Hey, thanks for all your feedback and responses, I've read all of it and really appreciate it! I might not answer every single post though, just a few.

I notice a couple of things in the recording. First, you play measure 1 rhythmically different from measure 9. The double tongue is leading you to play those 1/8th notes like 1/16th notes. Measure 9 is correct.

Yeah that sometimes happens when I don't pay attention. I think it's because when playing offbeats in this style of music they often get "laid back" and then the 1/8ths need to be a little faster. I think the whole wind band plays this not always exactly like written, I hope this makes sense somewhat but off course you are right that in this case it's just not right rhythmically.

A lot of the whole notes (2A) you are not holding long enough. All the separation helps emphasize the hard articulations. Also, measure 58-59 should be a slur, but you're rearticulating the lower note.

You are defintely right, this is probably because I play this ff (I think my recording doesn't show it well, but I played this really loud for demonstration purposes) and then I need a lot of air. I think its more important to come clean and in time for the next note than holding it to the very end. I think in the youtube recording they shorten it a little bit as well. But yeah definitely should be a little longer. Measure 58-59 features a hat so I'm not quite sure how this should be played.

In general, I'd work on a rounder sound (sounds like a bigger mouthpiece may help, I'm not familiar with JK stuff), playing notes full length, with less aggressive articulation. Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little. And make sure you don't get overly excited on the short notes - make sure they're the right length. I think those things will help.

I think I have no problem in general to achieve a rounder and softer sound just in this style of music where everything is articulated, short and/or loud I find it hard to combine this with "roundness". I think a soft articulation would not be a perfect fit for this style but maybe just a little softer.

[Nomsis]

Concerning the mouthpieces I will definitely try the JK exlusive 6BL I have laying around. I did already some short experiments this morning and it worked out better than I remembered from the last time I tested. Still need to test it in "real life" and for the full duration of a gig. It can get tiring when playing offbeats above the stuff (of course not exclusively but for a large amount of time) for 2 hours with little rest.

I think if I would buy a new one I would probably want to test the 6CL from Klier but with a bigger throat. I have a feeling some of the Kliers could benefit from a bigger throat. My custom 7EL I mentioned above for example plays very open and does not feel that small at all, despite the shallow cup. But custom orders are out of budget for me at the moment.

[tbdana]

I think you should show this thread to your conductor. He'll see all the effort here and cut you some slack. I do think this is a heroic level of concern over something de minimus in the grand wind band scheme of things.

[Nomsis]

I think you should show this thread to your conductor. He'll see all the effort here and cut you some slack. I do think this is a heroic level of concern over something de minimus in the grand wind band scheme of things.

Haha but this is not primarily about making my conductor happy it's more about improving and reflecting my trombone playing.

[Oslide]

Amateur here, so forgive me if I'm wrong.

I sincerely hope that the quality of the recording is the culprit, but what I hear listening to
Sound record (2024-07-20 10_12_30).mp3
is some kind of distortion throughout the larger part of of the recording, like one might hear with an electric guitar and a fuzz tone pedal.
As unlikely as it seems it reminds me of a trombone where bell and slide come from vastly different models, or a mouthpiece that doesn't fit.

As I said, I hope it's the recording.

[blap73]

Sorry I needed to pack it up as zip because mp3 was not possible. I have attached the sheet music and how I play it. This is just a quick recording with my phone at home so it isn't perfect but I tried to play exactly how I would do with the others around.

How close was the phone to your bell?
And what are your thoughts on how the recording sounds to you?

[Nomsis]

For me it sounds like a loud trombone recorded with a cheap phone in a acoustically very dry room. Not great or perfect and not how I would produce a CD but I can't find anything completely off either.

The phone was placed about 1or 2 meters away from the bell but not directly in front of the bell but sideways. I played much louder as anyone would normally do when playing on his own because the purpose was trying to play exactly like if the others would be around. Of course the phone could not handle this completely well and introduced a little bit of extra buzzing but I assumed anyone who tried to record a loud trombone or trumpet or similar with a phone would be familiar with this.

[Oslide]

I guess it would be best for you to get the opinion of a competent person that can hear you play live.
All the best!

[blap73]

Amateur here, so forgive me if I'm wrong.

I sincerely hope that the quality of the recording is the culprit, but what I hear listening to
Sound record (2024-07-20 10_12_30).mp3
is some kind of distortion throughout the larger part of of the recording, like one might hear with an electric guitar and a fuzz tone pedal.
As unlikely as it seems it reminds me of a trombone where bell and slide come from vastly different models, or a mouthpiece that doesn't fit.

As I said, I hope it's the recording.

Yeah, this was my impression too. I'm an amateur too so I didn't want to say anything! I have a couple thoughts triggered by your comment on "mouthpiece fit":
1) check for a leaky water key. Fill slide w/water, if you get drips then that cork needs attention.
2) F-valve alignment. If out of alignment the sound quality goes way down. Don't trust that the marks are correct, actually look down the tubes, you shouldn't see any edge of the valve protruding into the tubing.

[MStarke]

Listen to his recording (not the YouTube recording) and let us know what you think.

My impression:
Sounds like a good amateur level playing maybe a bit too much in the style of some of some of the popular more traditional German wind bands. Also a bit Mnozil Brass in there

In order to make it less aggressive:
- Play notes longer so that they match the full written length
- Play just a little bit softer
- Play with a bit less front to the note/articulate the beginning softer
- AND: Also consider making the end of the notes a bit softer! They sound pretty much cut off

I think the tonal colour of the longer notes is not really the issue, but the articulation can be too much.

The solution does not primarily lie in equipment, though a little deeper cup may make it just a bit rounder.

[Nomsis]

Thanks for the good feedback!

[timothy42b]

Aggressive probably means either tongued too hard or too much edge. An oboist might not understand either well enough to ask for the right thing. A bigger bore trombone might help get more volume without edge. Be conscious of your articulations. Even intonation at high volume can get raucous.

I finally got to listen to the recording.

There's a language barrier and a culture barrier here. I think of aggressive as maybe a halftime football game trombonist burying the band with that buzzy edge. But that's not what I hear. I hear a tone that seems a little forced and tense. (some of that is because of the material - maybe give us an example of something more melodic) The execution is pretty clean.

It's a phone recording and we don't know what it sounds like live. My laptop runs through an old Onkyo stereo to a set of PolkAudio speakers and that may add some distortion. It would be good to play live for someone experienced.

I think, having heard some European bands when I lived in Germany, and having played for a German director in the US, that he might be looking for a more mellow warmer tone. The word aggressive is probably wrong but there aren't good terms to describe tone.

[blap73]

I went back to the recording, and pulled it up in Audacity (a full blown audio editor). Here's a screenshot of the recording. You can see the recording is clipping in all the loud sections as the microphone audio gain was set way too high for the loudness of the playing. Its not possible to judge the aggressiveness (or not) given the clipping.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/1Un67y8PHssf5EnA9

[timothy42b]

I listened again now that I've played it and recorded it myself.

Now I tend to agree, your recording is distorting too much to tell. So disregard my earlier comment about tension (although it could still be true.)

And now I have to rethink how I record myself, now that I've resolved to do it more. I've been using iPhone on the music stand. Maybe try again a little farther away. Although, I didn't hear the same kind of distortion in mine.

And if you haven't played a lot of German wind band music, that is an absolutely classic example of the style we play all the time in one of my bands.

[Nomsis]

Thanks for your efforts testing this out and giving your feedback. And sorry for the bad recording but I don't have any better recording device at hand, my phone isn't an Iphone but a pretty cheap Motorola. When I play lees loud it usually works ok but as previously explained I wanted to show my louder dynamics. Experimenting with the placement might help but I don't have time for that at the moment. If you want to share I would be interested in your recording though. (you could also send it to me via PM to not overflow this thread)

[blap73]

I've used a free app from the Play Store (Android) called ASR. It allows you to adjust the microphone sensitivity (called gain in the app). Back when I had a Moto phone, it was Android, (I think) you should be able to install this app on your phone.

[boneAngo]

I face the same problem bro. What you need to do is your control of breathe by practicing long tones. You are using the strength of your lungs but not your support. Also for tonguing you tongued too heavy (meaning that your tongue's contact time with the jaw is too long). Just never ever change your instrument or your mouthpiece because of that. Always think of "what can I improve" instead of "should I change my hardwares".