trombone sound too "aggressive"?

[Nomsis]

Recently I got some feedback from my conductor and he said that my sound is to aggressive. This was really something new because I got criticised for many things over the years but never for my sound. Quite the opposite, people always liked my sound and said that it's a nice sound.

Just for reference, this is in a amateur wind band in Germany and the conductor (which is a really nice guy) is a professional oboe player which is quite new to the German wind band scene. I can see what he means with "aggressive", but for me it's just a typical "trombone sound". It mostly happens when I play very loud parts like e.g.. the bass soli in a traditional German march. It frequently happens that I am the only trombone player in this orchestra and I try to fill in the volume for a whole trombone section because the rest of the orchestra can play very loud as well. And I don't want the trombone to be overpowered completely, and I can play very loud (: Of course I don't play loud all the time, just when I think it's needed.

Sometimes he says the same thing to the trumpets and clarinets but mostly he says it to me. I talked to him and said it's just the natural colour of trombone at louder dynamics but he still didn't like it. Of course I don't want to be "too" loud either so I specifically asked the conductor if it is to loud and he said no. Just the sound is too aggressive, he now reported this multiple times to me but I really don't know what to do about it.

I tried to play less loud and then he did not complain but I think then the trombone just can't be heard trough all the other loud stuff. Maybe it's about the articulation? Some kind of music like the marches I mentioned often requires some very sharp articulation, but maybe it's too sharp? Or is it the equipment? I play a shires pro select with a silver plated bell and a joseph klier jk exclusive 6CL but that's my main setup for a very long time now.

For reference here is a piece we play where this happens frequently. I think this professional recording sounds also a little "aggressive" in some parts.

[BGuttman]

I am reminded of the famous conductor of a symphony orchestra who started a rehearsal, raised his arms to start, and stopped saying "already the trombones are too loud".

[Crazy4Tbone86]

“Aggressive sound” is a term that can be used to describe many different things. Maybe you should have a discussion with your conductor to figure out exactly what he hears in your playing.

Taking a look at your articulations might be something to start with. I conduct a college ensemble and I have had a few trombone players over the years that had extremely aggressive articulations. It was just something taught to them in their upbringing. Every time there was an accent in the music, they would articulate so hard that I almost expected shrapnel to come out of their bells.

I worked with these students to develop brick-shaped notes (starts at a particular volume, sustains at that same volume, and suddenly ends with no taper). One of the secrets to brick-shaped notes is to have a clean, precise beginning without punching it excessively. If you play a series of brick-shaped notes with the smallest amount (sometimes only a tenth of a second) of silence in between them, the notes actually sound accented. This is because clear notes juxtaposed to absolute silence create the audio illusion of accented notes, but doesn’t have the aggressive punch that many musicians use.

[Doug Elliott]

Record a rehearsal from a distance in front and see if you can hear from the conductor's perspective what he's talking about.
Recording yourself is always a good idea. I have often changed my approach or interpretation or phrasing or articulation, because what came through was not what I thought I was doing.

[Burgerbob]

If you're trying to make up all the sound for a section by yourself, it probably is too loud.

[Nomsis]

I tried figuring out what exactly the problem is but I had no success. He is a very nice guy and open for discussions but the problem is that he has another mother tongue than me and so detailed discussions are hard. Recently we discussed about another wind band we heard at an event and I found them to play not bad but extremely boring with no accents and dynamics, everything sounded the same for me without any differentiation between different styles of music. Interestingly he liked it more than me, despite he admitted that it's a little boring he liked the softer sound of the whole orchestra compared to our wind band. So maybe to strong articulations might be a problem. Often almost every note has an accent or a staccato in pieces like the one I linked above. So I think sharp articulations are required there but maybe I can experiment with just soften them up a little bit.

[Nomsis]

Is it possible to post audio to this forum?

[Nomsis]

Record a rehearsal from a distance in front and see if you can hear from the conductor's perspective what he's talking about.
Recording yourself is always a good idea. I have often changed my approach or interpretation or phrasing or articulation, because what came through was not what I thought I was doing.

If you're trying to make up all the sound for a section by yourself, it probably is too loud.

I often heard recordings of this wind band with me playing the trombone and generally the trombone comes barely trough. If I play very loud of course the trombone can be heard but I don't think its too loud in general.

I think a problem we have is that our drummers play too loud in general and especially at the fortissimo parts which cranks really the volume up of the whole band because everyone needs to compete with the drummers. It's often too loud for my taste but really I don't want the trombone get buried under everything else so I need to play loud as well. I may hint the conductor in this direction.

[JohnL]

There is a school of thought among some wind band conductors wherein nothing is ever supposed to stick out from the fabric of the band. It's all about "blend". I'm afraid your conductor may be one of those people. As far as I'm concerned, it's the musical equivalent of running a $100 (~€92) dinner through a blender. All of the individual flavors are lost.

That said, ramping it up to compensate for your section being shorthanded probably isn't a good idea. What should (IMHO) happen is that the rest of the band should notice the difference and compensate automatically. If that doesn't happen, the it's the conductor's job to fix the problem, not yours.

Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?

I've also played in bands where the importance of a given part is largely determined by how close the section is to the conductor. Even though the low brass has the melody, it's subordinate to whatever the front row (or front two rows, in a larger band) is playing. Hey, if that melody was important, it wouldn't be in the low brass, would it?

[claf]

Don't try to compensate the lack of players in your section.
Firstly: 3 trombones playing a chord mf does not sound like a single trombone playing a single note f or ff.
Secondly: if the trombone part is to be heard above the rest, the conductor will notice if you're not heard and will ask for more.
Thirdly: don't participate to the "I need to play louder than my neighbor to be heard", there are already too many people doing that.

That's exactly what I'm doing in the symphony orchestra where I'm the single trumpet player: I could blow the orchestra out, but I'm not doing it for the sake of musicality and the flutists' hearing.
I'm keeping that for moments where it's really supposed to happen

[OneTon]

I often heard recordings of this wind band with me playing the trombone and generally the trombone comes barely trough. If I play very loud of course the trombone can be heard but I don't think its too loud in general.

I think a problem we have is that our drummers play too loud in general and especially at the fortissimo parts which cranks really the volume up of the whole band because everyone needs to compete with the drummers. It's often too loud for my taste but really I don't want the trombone get buried under everything else so I need to play loud as well. I may hint the conductor in this direction.

This attitude puts people in a perpetual Cold War Arms Race with the rhythm section (and trumpets).

[hyperbolica]

Aggressive probably means either tongued too hard or too much edge. An oboist might not understand either well enough to ask for the right thing. A bigger bore trombone might help get more volume without edge. Be conscious of your articulations. Even intonation at high volume can get raucous.

There is a line as to how loud you can play without sounding bad. You might need help finding that line.

[Nomsis]

Don't try to compensate the lack of players in your section.
Firstly: 3 trombones playing a chord mf does not sound like a single trombone playing a single note f or ff.
Secondly: if the trombone part is to be heard above the rest, the conductor will notice if you're not heard and will ask for more.
Thirdly: don't participate to the "I need to play louder than my neighbor to be heard", there are already too many people doing that.

That's exactly what I'm doing in the symphony orchestra where I'm the single trumpet player: I could blow the orchestra out, but I'm not doing it for the sake of musicality and the flutists' hearing.
I'm keeping that for moments where it's really supposed to happen

Just to make it clear, I'm not talking about p or mf parts, I always play them very soft. I never got any complaints about those. I'm just talking about the ff parts where the trombone(s) have a soli, sometimes together with some other instruments. Those parts are often unisono anyway. If I'm playing those soft the conductor will not say anything because he usually says nothing to the trombones except that the sound is to aggressive. And to just say it again, he never said the trombone(s) is/are to loud!

[sungfw]

If you're trying to make up all the sound for a section by yourself, it probably is too loud.

This.

[AtomicClock]

Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?

I would guess that this particular conductor will never ask Nomsis for more. At least, not before they develop a new sonic relationship.

[MahlerMusic]

RECORD YOURSELF!!!

I did this years ago when I was wanting to switch to a larger mouthpiece as I felt I needed more volume. I was not liking the sound of the larger MP in the normal tenor range so I recorded myself with the smaller MP and I can clearly be heard on 2nd trombone with an 8H conn. Trombones have no problems vs a full orchestra.

Blurred for others privacy.

[Nomsis]

There is a school of thought among some wind band conductors wherein nothing is ever supposed to stick out from the fabric of the band. It's all about "blend". I'm afraid your conductor may be one of those people. As far as I'm concerned, it's the musical equivalent of running a $100 (~€92) dinner through a blender. All of the individual flavors are lost.

That said, ramping it up to compensate for your section being shorthanded probably isn't a good idea. What should (IMHO) happen is that the rest of the band should notice the difference and compensate automatically. If that doesn't happen, the it's the conductor's job to fix the problem, not yours.

Just out of curiosity: does the conductor ever ask for more trombone? Or tell the rest of the band to get out of the way so the trombones can be heard without having to blow their brains out?

I've also played in bands where the importance of a given part is largely determined by how close the section is to the conductor. Even though the low brass has the melody, it's subordinate to whatever the front row (or front two rows, in a larger band) is playing. Hey, if that melody was important, it wouldn't be in the low brass, would it?

Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year. He just looses himself in details sometimes, e.g it might be we completely loose tempo and nothing goes together but the only thing he notices is the clarinets articulating something a little bit odd. Focus is more towards the wood section and trombone(s) usually don't receive any comments. Of course the band isn't always very supportive, if he says play this loud play this piano play this short or long often times nothing happens. Some people just come and play as they always did.

He sometimes comes to me and asks if everything was ok or whether I noticed anything that should be improved and I always try to be helpful without giving to much of my own musical opinion. And I try to be always as supportive as possible and try to understand what he wants and what the problem is, that's why I posted this question in the first place! No need for comments like I should do my own wind band!

[imsevimse]

Aggressive? That was a hard one. The trombone is sometimes needed for just that. I listned to the recording. What I heard is the trumpets sound more like big band trumpet players especially near the end. Not bad, but the articulation isn't quite in the idiom of a March (what I think). The trombones? When loud I think they need to cut trough like you do. Often the problem is there isn't enough edge. If this was me I would try to change mouthpiece or horn. I usually play a .525 in a wind band. If you already play a .547 then you could perhaps go for a deeper cup. Get something that change the balance. In my experience, even if your technique for loud playing is good there is a limit when the sound comes ouf as harsh and the balance will be too much of the high frequencies. In the orchestras where I play I never play beyond that. Maybe this orchestra needs loud trombones but then of course balanced trombones. With a deeper cup this could change. This is what I would try first.

/Tom

[Nomsis]

Aggressive? That was a hard one. The trombone is sometimes needed for just that. I listned to the recording. What I heard is the trumpets sound more like big band trumpet players especially near the end. Not bad, but the articulation isn't quite in the idiom of a March (what I think). The trombones? When loud I think they need to cut trough like you do. Often the problem is there isn't enough edge. If this was me I would try to change mouthpiece or horn. I usually play a .525 in a wind band. If you already play a .547 then you could perhaps go for a deeper cup. Get something that change the balance. In my experience, even if your technique for loud playing is good there is a limit when the sound comes ouf as harsh and the balance will be too much of the high frequencies. In the orchestras where I play I never play beyond that. Maybe this orchestra needs loud trombones but then of course balanced trombones. With a deeper cup this could change. This is what I would try first.

/Tom

Aggressive probably means either tongued too hard or too much edge. An oboist might not understand either well enough to ask for the right thing.a bigger bore trombone might help get more volune without edge. Be conscious of your articulations. Even intonation at high volume can get raucous.

There is a line as to how loud you can play without sounding bad. You might need help finding that line.

Thanks, these are the kind of comments I was looking for! Another trombone is not in question (because of money) but I might experiment with a bigger/deeper mouthpiece though this might get a bit tiring over time. Then I will pay special attention on the articulations the next time as well as not crossing the line between loud and to loud.

[MahlerMusic]

This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.

http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3

But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.

[harrisonreed]

That clip is gross lolll!!

[TomWest]

Wait, you’ve got an oboe player conducting the band and he says that you’re too loud and aggressive.
Maybe he can’t hear the oboe…

[Posaunus]

This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.
http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3
But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.

Rather tepid audience response!

[tbdana]

If it's too aggressive but not too loud, then what I'm hearing from his comment is that he thinks your tone has too much brilliance and is not dark and round enough. This happens, to different degrees depending on our equipment, when we really lean on it. With some horns/mouthpieces, leaning on it takes away all the warmth and depth, and gives you a bright sound. My guess is that's what he's hearing.

OTOH, if this is the biggest problem with your amateur wind band and first-year conductor, then I'd say this band is in a great spot. Obviously, all the usual intonation and time problems inherent to amateur wind bands have been completely solved, and all he has left to do is to criticize the tone of his one trombone player trying to hold up what should be a full section. In which case, what a wonderful problem to have! Otherwise, if there are still pitch and time problems, perhaps he's focusing on one small problem he thinks he can solve, rather than the big systemic problems that are beyond resolution.

In other words, I think this is a seriously nit-picky complaint, considering all the problems amateur wind bands have, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe back off some or try a bigger mouthpiece, and if he's still not happy, then too bad for him. It's nice you're so conscientious about it, but I suspect this conductor actually has much bigger fish to fry.

Caveat: I'm saying this without listening to the recording because I'm sitting in a public place.

[JohnL]

Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year.

In that case, his frame of reference for wind band is probably informed by whatever experience he has had playing in such ensembles. You might want to ask him for his thoughts on blend and balance.

I'm afraid I have some difficulty engaging in a conversation along these lines without coming across as angry; it strikes far too close to home.

[AndrewMeronek]

This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.

I agree but mostly because as I've gotten older the less I've liked Wagner. I think the orchestra and the trombones captured very well the overblown pompous boring dirge that is Wagner's music.

[AndrewMeronek]

Relating to the OP:

Be careful with intonation. Done well, trombones should be the absolute best instruments defining intonation in the ensemble. But intonation is hard. It's very easy to give the pitch a 5 to 10 cent bump when getting louder, and sometimes this is a desirable effect and sometimes not. The trickiest thing is that at small changes in pitch up to maybe 10 to 15 cents, a change in pitch is more often perceived as a change in color rather than the literal change in tuning.

Ears are weird.

But that is one reason why an instrument gets more "edge" and sticks out of an ensemble - it's not just the tambre or even the extremely relevant articulation.

[Nomsis]

If it's too aggressive but not too loud, then what I'm hearing from his comment is that he thinks your tone has too much brilliance and is not dark and round enough. This happens, to different degrees depending on our equipment, when we really lean on it. With some horns/mouthpieces, leaning on it takes away all the warmth and depth, and gives you a bright sound. My guess is that's what he's hearing.

OTOH, if this is the biggest problem with your amateur wind band and first-year conductor, then I'd say this band is in a great spot. Obviously, all the usual intonation and time problems inherent to amateur wind bands have been completely solved, and all he has left to do is to criticize the tone of his one trombone player trying to hold up what should be a full section. In which case, what a wonderful problem to have! Otherwise, if there are still pitch and time problems, perhaps he's focusing on one small problem he thinks he can solve, rather than the big systemic problems that are beyond resolution.

In other words, I think this is a seriously nit-picky complaint, considering all the problems amateur wind bands have, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe back off some or try a bigger mouthpiece, and if he's still not happy, then too bad for him. It's nice you're so conscientious about it, but I suspect this conductor actually has much bigger fish to fry.

Caveat: I'm saying this without listening to the recording because I'm sitting in a public place.

Thanks for the comment, I have a feeling that it is quite accurate. We are actually not a particularly bad wind band and have many good players but of course we still share many of the usual problems of amateur wind bands.

Just to avoid confusion, the recording I inked to is not us playing, it is just the same piece and contains what I think my conductor is referring to as "aggressive" playing.

[Nomsis]

Relating to the OP:

Be careful with intonation. Done well, trombones should be the absolute best instruments defining intonation in the ensemble. But intonation is hard. It's very easy to give the pitch a 5 to 10 cent bump when getting louder, and sometimes this is a desirable effect and sometimes not. The trickiest thing is that at small changes in pitch up to maybe 10 to 15 cents, a change in pitch is more often perceived as a change in color rather than the literal change in tuning.

Ears are weird.

But that is one reason why an instrument gets more "edge" and sticks out of an ensemble - it's not just the tambre or even the extremely relevant articulation.

Interesting thought, I think my intonation is usually quite good (at least I'm not used to others complaining about it) and I try to adjust all the time to what I hear, I don't rely on the others to adapt to me because I think this won't happen. But need to check this.

[Posaunus]

... the overblown pompous boring dirge that is Wagner's music.

Wagner "overblown?" You just discovered this?

[Nomsis]

Sometimes I think the same but I don't think he is really one of those people. Our conductor is pretty inexperienced and I think he is still fighting a little bit with this job, it's his first job as a conductor and he is here for less than a year.

In that case, his frame of reference for wind band is probably informed by whatever experience he has had playing in such ensembles. You might want to ask him for his thoughts on blend and balance.

I'm afraid I have some difficulty engaging in a conversation along these lines without coming across as angry; it strikes far too close to home.

Afaik he never played in a wind band, he plays in a symphony orchestra for his day job. One time we played (this was other music though - christmas stuff) some of his colleagues came to listen and the trombone player told me the trombone was much too soft/quiet haha. Our conductor told me since he is conducting us he is listening to a lot of wind band music. I'm just not sure to what exactly he listens to. Some of the traditional german "Blasmusik" often gets recorded in a small ensemble not featuring a trombone at all...

[JohnL]

Afaik he never played in a wind band, he plays in a symphony orchestra for his day job.

If he has spent any time at all in a wind band, it was probably during his formative years. If he's an American, playing in wind band in secondary school and university/conservatory is pretty standard. In other parts of the world, he might well have only played in an orchestra, even while in school.

[Posaunus]

We all have to live with this, one way or another, whether we play in a wind band or an orchestra.

Very few conductors have ever played or have a good grasp of the trombone. (Any more than I would, I suppose, with regard to a viola.) I've always tried to be understanding and sympathetic, so if I need to convey our section's concerns and capabilities to a conductor, I do it gently and in a friendly, helpful manner - with limited expectations that anything will change. We do the best we can to make effective music within the conductor's vision. It's not a good idea to rebel against a conductor!

[blap73]

The only thing I can contribute is my experience hearing the trumpet section playing fff. It sounded like a Tijuana Taxi traffic jam. Horrible screeching, painful to my (not very good) ears. Now, was that "too aggressive" or "too loud". Or it just became too aggressive because it was too loud?

What horn and mouthpiece are you using?

[SteveM]

Just ask the conductor to describe what he means by "aggressive" and, once you understand what he does mean, let him know you are going to try to correct the problem and you would appreciate feedback as to whether you are moving in the right direction.

[flyingcow]

This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.

http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3

But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.

Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.

[Burgerbob]

This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.

http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3

But I still love it and clip of this is my notification for important work emails.

Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.

If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!

[flyingcow]

Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.

If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!

True... a fiberglass Sousaphone however...

[brassmedic]

I play a shires pro select with a silver plated bell and a joseph klier jk exclusive 6CL but that's my main setup for a very long time now.

I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?

[brassmedic]

Is it possible to post audio to this forum?

Did you try clicking the "attachments" tab, "add files", and selecting your mp3 file? Or post it on YouTube and link to it here.

[TomInME]

Was the Husqvarna the bass trombone or the tuba? That must have been some tree to take down.

If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!

Yeah, got to be - although I would have guessed Stihl. She runs good at full throttle.

[JohnL]

This is a rare time that I think the trombone went a little too hard.

http://tromboneexcerpts.org/Audio/Wagne ... ene4_6.mp3

Funny thing is, it's very much "take no prisoners" when it's a moving part and less so on the big chords at the end.

[flyingcow]

If you find someone that can make tuba sound like that, call the police. That's contrabass, baby!

Yeah, got to be - although I would have guessed Stihl. She runs good at full throttle.

I dunno... Sounded too easy to start to be a Stihl.

[Nomsis]

Sorry I needed to pack it up as zip because mp3 was not possible. I have attached the sheet music and how I play it. This is just a quick recording with my phone at home so it isn't perfect but I tried to play exactly how I would do with the others around.

[Nomsis]

I play a shires pro select with a silver plated bell and a joseph klier jk exclusive 6CL but that's my main setup for a very long time now.

I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?

Interesting you say that because I know many people playing in a similar setup than me using smaller mouthpieces like for example the jk exclusive 8DL. C by the way is their medium cup and L is just the large shank. Here is the full range of their "exclusive" mouthpieces: https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone (just click the arrow to unfold the table)

I have five large shank mouthpieces, all of them are from the jk exlusive line:
- 9EL I don't use it, it's to small for large bore tenor in my opinion.
- 7EL This is a custom one I got used, I think it has a little bigger throat than the standard. I use it for smaller stuff like brass quintet and it makes the higher register a little bit easier and gives a very nice sound in my opinion. My favourite mouthpiece.
- 6CL my standard piece, works for almost everything in my opinion. Not perfect for everything.
- 5BL I use it when I need to play bass trombone stuff. Dulls the higher register but good for low register, especially below the stuff.
- 6BL I normally don't use it because I think it sits right between the 6CL and the 5BL. I might try using this one and see what the conductor says. Personally I like it less than the 6CL and it is more tiring.

By the way if you ask yourself why I have just joseph klier mouthpieces, it's very easy. They are available almost everywhere here in Germany, they are cheap, on the used market one can get them for usually 30 to 50€, sometimes less. They have a naming system I can understand (I never got a grip of the bach naming system for example) and one can get them in almost every size, custom orders are easy as well. And of course I think they play well, otherwise the rest would not matter.

[MrHCinDE]

I played in a wind orchestra with a conductor who had similar preferences, especially about the trombones and trumpets. He‘s a very fine trombonist himself and I have the highest respect for him as a conductor.

I came from the British brass band tradition and learned my trade in a very loud band with an old-skool conductor who liked trombones to sound like the pea-shooters he grew up with. Playing a modern large horn on a 5G and trying to meet his sound concept meant either pushing the horn to its absolute earth-shattering limits or (at the time) sub-consciously closing up my mouth cavity and just introducing unnecessary stress and tension to try and brighten the sound.

Once I moved to Germany and started listening to the feedback of the wind band conductor, it opened up a lot wider perspective and terms such as aggressive and harsh were probably fair criticism. I’ve worked hard on it and can generally keep the animal in its cage most of the time. Changing to a Bach/Edwards based setup away from a lightweight Conn did help me figure it out, but now I can also pick up an 88HT and play it much more controlled than when I used to own one so the gear change was part of the journey for me but not the fundamental problem.

If I’m struggling a bit for practice time and a bit off form, I find the sterling silver leadpipe does take a bit of the front edge off some attacks and whilst more expensive than a technique or mouthpiece change, it’s a couple of hundred € rather than a new slide/horn. It isn’t the main solution for me though, only a safety net if I’m out of practice and trying to overdo it.

I don’t know if your conductor shares the same view but particularly in the bass section solos in marches, the trombonist wind band conductor I knew liked a lot of tuba/baritone with trombones sitting on top of the pyramid and not cutting through too much. If I listen to your recording, I enjoy your playing in general but could imagine that the trombone might stick out a bit in such sections. It’s hard to tell from a solo phone recording, I’ll have to come and listen live sometime instead. Whereabouts in Germany are you?

[brassmedic]

I looked up the specs on that mouthpiece. Awfully small throat, and I'm assuming "C" means a shallow cup. If you used something with a larger throat and deeper cup it would probably round out the sound quite a bit. But we still don't know what you sound like. I'm assuming that's not you playing on the recording you posted, right?

Interesting you say that because I know many people playing in a similar setup than me using smaller mouthpieces like for example the jk exclusive 8DL. C by the way is their medium cup and L is just the large shank. Here is the full range of their "exclusive" mouthpieces: https://www.jk-klier.de/en-gb/mouthpiec ... n#Trombone (just click the arrow to unfold the table)

I have five large shank mouthpieces, all of them are from the jk exlusive line:
- 9EL I don't use it, it's to small for large bore tenor in my opinion.
- 7EL This is a custom one I got used, I think it has a little bigger throat than the standard. I use it for smaller stuff like brass quintet and it makes the higher register a little bit easier and gives a very nice sound in my opinion. My favourite mouthpiece.
- 6CL my standard piece, works for almost everything in my opinion. Not perfect for everything.
- 5BL I use it when I need to play bass trombone stuff. Dulls the higher register but good for low register, especially below the stuff.
- 6BL I normally don't use it because I think it sits right between the 6CL and the 5BL. I might try using this one and see what the conductor says. Personally I like it less than the 6CL and it is more tiring.

By the way if you ask yourself why I have just joseph klier mouthpieces, it's very easy. They are available almost everywhere here in Germany, they are cheap, on the used market one can get them for usually 30 to 50€, sometimes less. They have a naming system I can understand (I never got a grip of the bach naming system for example) and one can get them in almost every size, custom orders are easy as well. And of course I think they play well, otherwise the rest would not matter.

Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.

I realize it's a different country and a different tradition of playing; I just thought it might be an easy thing to try and see if it helps. If not, nothing lost.

[hyperbolica]

Sorry I needed to pack it up as zip because mp3 was not possible. I have attached the sheet music and how I play it. This is just a quick recording with my phone at home so it isn't perfect but I tried to play exactly how I would do with the others around.

I notice a couple of things in the recording. First, you play measure 1 rhythmically different from measure 9. The double tongue is leading you to play those 1/8th notes like 1/16th notes. Measure 9 is correct.

A lot of the whole notes (2A) you are not holding long enough. All the separation helps emphasize the hard articulations. Also, measure 58-59 should be a slur, but you're rearticulating the lower note.

In general, I'd work on a rounder sound (sounds like a bigger mouthpiece may help, I'm not familiar with JK stuff), playing notes full length, with less aggressive articulation. Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little. And make sure you don't get overly excited on the short notes - make sure they're the right length. I think those things will help.

[tbdana]

Instead of "Tah" or whatever vowel you use, try "Da" or even "Ha", just to soften the articulations a little.

I like to think of it as "tAH" instead of "Tah," emphasizing the air over the articulation (which is secondary to the air, and this helps us think of it that way).

[Posaunus]

Well you have to view it in context. In other literature, JK calls a C cup "medium small". Are you playing a .547 bore instrument? The "small" "medium", "large" cup designations are for ALL mouthpieces. Here, very few players use a C cup with a large bore trombone. So that's why I consider it small for that equipment. On a small bore trombone a C cup is normal. But you said it's a large shank, so I was assuming you're not playing a small bore trombone.

I have tried several Josef Klier mouthpieces, and enjoy playing them. One should not in any way try to compare their numbering system with Bach's; Klier's is different - more systematic, more sophisticated, and more comprehensive.

To simplify a bit, Klier's Cup letters are tied to the Throat bore, as follows:
BK: Very Deep; 7.6 mm Throat
A: Very Deep; 7.2 mm Throat
B: Deep; 6.8 mm Throat
C: Middle; 6.4 mm Throat
D: Shallow; 6.0 mm Throat
E: Very Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat
F: Extremely Shallow; 5.8 mm Throat

Klier's Cup numbers refer to the Cup (Inner Rim) Diameter
For instance, in the "C" series (Large or Small Shank):
1C: 28.00 mm Cup
2C: 27.50 mm Cup
3C: 27.00 mm Cup
4C: 26.50 mm Cup
5C: 26.00 mm Cup
6C: 25.75 mm Cup
7C: 25.50 mm Cup
8C: 25.25 mm Cup
9C: 25.00 mm Cup
10C: 24.50 mm Cup

So: A Klier "C" cup is "medium" depth - in large bore pieces just a touch shallower than a Bach "G" cup,
and a Klier "B" Cup is deeper - perhaps similar to a Bach "G" Cup.
So to make the (somewhat unfair) comparisons (at least on paper, since I haven't done it in real life):
A Klier 7B might resemble a Bach 5G
A Klier 7C might resemble a Bach 6½AL or a Bach 5GS
A Klier 6B might resemble a Schilke 51 or a Bach 5GB
A Klier 6C might resemble a Schilke 51B
A Klier 5B might resemble a Bach 4G or a Schilke D5.2 "Symphony"

So, in general, I agree with Brad (brassmedic): Nomsis should try a slightly larger / deeper large-shank mouthpiece for his wind band than his 6CL. Perhaps a 6BL or a 5BL.

[His "E" cups are (in my opinion) really too shallow for a large-bore trombone.]