How do you develop your improvisational skills in ways unique to the trombone?

[johntarr]

After reading the long and interesting thread on “why do trombonists suck at improvising?”, I thought I would start this thread.

How do you develop your improvisational skills in ways unique to the trombone?

I know there are many time worn suggestions such as: “learn all scales, hundreds of standards, transcribe, learn patterns, listen etc. Those are of course important, but I’m wondering if one of our limitations is trying to learn to improvise on the trombone in ways that are suited to other instruments and not fully appropriate for “us”. What can we develop that is unique to the trombone?

Thanks, John

[harrisonreed]

Use of alternate positions and learning to play "against the grain" to minimize slide movement while staying in whatever chord or key you're in is pretty unique to the trombone. Basically watch a few Frank Rosolino videos -- everything he does is based on lip exercises within chords as they lie in stacked, or only slightly offset positions/partials.

[Bach5G]

Doodle tonguing. Check out Bob McChesney.

[Pre59]

The consensus is that there's two main ways to create clean articulations on the tbn, fretting plus tongue or doodling, and that the former makes playing at higher volumes easier and the latter is much faster when playing in a more controlled environment.
I don't think that you have to choose a side early on, I use fretting most of the time with doodles for short phrases. If doodle tonguing was right for me I would be using it a lot more by now.
I've found that mp's with rounder inside rims don't produce such a clean "snap" when fretting.

I'm old enough to have learned on the job, in the early stages anyway, but some of the very best knowledge that's benefited me are jazz guitar videos, because when you slow them down they're still easy to hear. It really doesn't matter what the information source is, especially if you're trying to build your own voice and style.

[Grah]

I too had a problem with the original post “why do trombonists suck at improvising?”, because it was just not true about professionals. However, this new post is constructive and it is good to see people sharing their tips on improvising on this forum - for the umpteenth time of course. My tip is for you to make sure you listen to the jazz trombone soloists you really like and then analyse their solos and apply their techniques to constructing your own solos.

I am not a professional but I have been playing for many years. I still listen to my favorite trombone players and my music life is very satisfying when I am able to play a good solo and have a top impact on the audience. I have got a couple of good gigs coming up this weekend and I am on my toes waiting to do my solos. I have been listening to a lot of my George Masso recordings to put myself in the right frame of mind! Have a listen to him because he might give you some similar inspiration.

[Doug Elliott]

I can't agree more - George Masso solos are lessons in how to construct a great solo.

Back when the Artie Shaw band was working, I played lead and occasionally George played 2nd. It was always a pleasure getting to hear him play, especially sitting right next to him.

It's always best to hear players live. Recordings tell you what they played, but experiencing it firsthand really puts everything in context.

[ssking2b]

Pardon me for being uninformed, but what is fretting? Is it "Use of alternate positions and learning to play "against the grain"?

[BGuttman]

Pardon me for being uninformed, but what is fretting? Is it "Use of alternate positions and learning to play "against the grain"?

Exactly right. For example: C-D-E in 3-4-5. You don't even have to tongue the notes -- articulation happens with the partial change.

[johntarr]

Another aspect of improvisation is developing vocabulary and familiarity with the horn. Some patterns lie well and can be played with against the grain techniques and/or multiple tonguing. One of the problems of pedagogy materials is that they come from saxophone players. We are told to learn licks in all 12 keys over the full range of the horn. After all, that’s what Bird did.

Playing a two octave Gmaj7 arpeggio on the trombone is very different than the sax, piano and even the trumpet. So how do we adapt the deluge of pedagogy materials and ideas that work for keyed instruments to the trombone?

And, there may be other ways we can think of improvisation beyond speed.

[PaulTdot]

I'm not sure how this thread moved so quickly towards "fretting or doodle tonguing".

Is the execution of fast single-note passages the only measure of improvisational skills? And those the only options?

Even if we assumed that was the case, a fast single tongue or double tonguing are also great options. Or not tonguing at all, for some (e.g. some Ray Anderson solos!). Depends on the style. Unless you're in a bebop outfit on the East Coast in the early 1950s, playing I Got Rhythm at 400 bpm every night, you can probably manage 95% or more of what you need to do with a good single tongue.

Here's one from Ray Anderson. There's a lot of stuff in the solo that he's not tonguing or articulating at all (and lots of things he is, as well, of course.) But it's definitely a unique and personal sound!



I think one thing that is sometimes overlooked in the effort to master clean articulation on the trombone is the capacity for vocal inflection. Listen to singers a lot, or sing some phrases yourself, and then try to match that as closely as you can on the trombone. You have the ability to phrase in ways many other instruments cannot (without fancy tricks, anyway). Fine changes in intonation for expression, smooth transitions, different kinds of vibrato, etc.

In the end, though, the "time-worn" tricks mentioned in the first post are the real deal. They are in no way inappropriate for the trombone - get practicing and learn them!

[PaulTdot]

I can't agree more - George Masso solos are lessons in how to construct a great solo.

Back when the Artie Shaw band was working, I played lead and occasionally George played 2nd. It was always a pleasure getting to hear him play, especially sitting right next to him.

It's always best to hear players live. Recordings tell you what they played, but experiencing it firsthand really puts everything in context.

Yeah. Think about solo construction. Not just what notes to play in bar 3, but what you're aiming for overall. What is the architecture of the solo? How are using various registers? Where are you leaving space? What the timbral effect? Etc.

There are so many improvisational skills and tools that have nothing to do with blazing sixteenth-note lines (even though those are great, too, and easier on the trombone than people tend to think). Just learning to improvise with a great time feel and knowing when NOT to play will already set you apart from the pack.

[Pre59]

I just did a word search in this topic for "speed" which so far is at 3 mentions and "fast" at 1, and nothing to do with me. Doodle tonguing or fretting isn't only just about faster tempos, fretting is also about finding chord and scale patterns and economy of slide movement.

[imsevimse]

Some can play in full speed like Frank Rosolini, Carl Fontana and Bill Watrous but most can not. I think for me to get better I need to scale down and skip the bullshit. I can not play like them so why try? I will fail every time I go there, guaranteed. I now limit myself when I play. Not use so many notes ...

/Tom

[afugate]

I think one thing that is sometimes overlooked in the effort to master clean articulation on the trombone is the capacity for vocal inflection. Listen to singers a lot, or sing some phrases yourself, and then try to match that as closely as you can on the trombone. You have the ability to phrase in ways many other instruments cannot (without fancy tricks, anyway). Fine changes in intonation for expression, smooth transitions, different kinds of vibrato, etc.

This is my thought about playing lead in a big band section. We have opportunity to do so much more than just play notes, dynamics. and articulations.

--Andy in OKC

[AndrewMeronek]

Learn to use the slide to articulate. Not just fretting. I mean - listen to Tommy Dorsey. He used variations in vibrato to suggest articulations. Use portamenti. Use tuning adjustments that are easy on the slide but difficult on valved instruments to color notes and tones. Play tunes that accommodate these ideas.

[WilliamLang]

there's another path here, and it's not everyone's cup of tea, but i work on my improvisation skills outside of the jazz lexicon. there's just a lot of different ways to approach improvisation, so extended techniques and deep listening are some tools i use to crack open my routine from time to time.

[VJOFan]

Then there is just doing the same work as other musicians.

The best (worst) experience connected to learning improvisation I ever had was when a clinician basically told me to stop bullshitting my solos and learn how harmony actually worked.

Once I dug into the verticality of chords and how that interacted with the linear voice leading that ties one chord to another, my improv improved.

I mean, I had practiced scales and chords before, and had learned linear patterns over ii-V-I progressions, but I hadn't internalized the logic and really got the technique automatic.

I started as an ear player when young and only sort of learned the theory. I finally got to a point where I could hear what I was going to do based on the chords of the tune.

[johntarr]

Once I dug into the verticality of chords and how that interacted with the linear voice leading that ties one chord to another, my improv improved.

I mean, I had practiced scales and chords before, and had learned linear patterns over ii-V-I progressions, but I hadn't internalized the logic and really got the technique automatic.

I started as an ear player when young and only sort of learned the theory. I finally got to a point where I could hear what I was going to do based on the chords of the tune.

Great point! What kinds of things did you do to dig in and get the technique automatic? What we’re the exercises you used to be able to hear what you were going to do, based on the tune?

Those are the kinds of questions I’m asking myself and would love to hear how others developed those skills.

[ithinknot]

Then there is just doing the same work as other musicians.

The best (worst) experience connected to learning improvisation I ever had was when a clinician basically told me to stop bullshitting my solos and learn how harmony actually worked.

Once I dug into the verticality of chords and how that interacted with the linear voice leading that ties one chord to another, my improv improved.

Yes!!

What kinds of things did you do to dig in and get the technique automatic? What we’re the exercises you used to be able to hear what you were going to do, based on the tune?

Not to preempt any specific answers to this question - but perhaps don't think about this too trombone- or improv-specifically, at least initially. The basic point is: do you really hear how tonal harmony functions? So: can you transcribe the chords of a song you don't know? (Or even one you do...)

Active listening is crucial.

And theory can help.

I've taught undergraduates species counterpoint, Bach chorale harmony and jazz chord substitution side-by-side, and it works great. A lot of people get put off theory, and it can seem purely theoretical when it's taught boringly by boring people, but it doesn't have to be that way. It should be clear that the student isn't completing exercises just to fill the Strategic Chorale Reserve; you can demonstrate how all these approaches to voice-leading flow into one another through history, to what extent they're idiom-specific (and more importantly to what extent they aren't), while developing the aural skills needed to hear what's on the page... and what isn't on a page yet, or never will be. (Sight-singing, transcribing, etc alongside instrument-specific practice.)

Yes, different aspects of this appeal to different people, and it's perfectly possible to get to a similar place purely by ear, just like most everyone managed language without reading for millenia. But it's not a zero-sum game - seeing and hearing it from both sides can speed up the process enormously.

This is getting away from your topic question - and no-one's denying that the trombone isn't sometimes a unique impediment - but it's always worth asking... how have you developed your improvisational skills [period] ...?

[ithinknot]

Also, this, from the other thread.

It's a very 'unique to the trombone' reason why all the non-'unique to the trombone' stuff matters even more.

Relevant post I saw on Facebook today:

"My theory: whereas making jazz music is about endless improvement, it is not about PLAYING more than you did yesterday. It's more about HEARING more than you did yesterday. Once you hear everything, you know what to do. Improvising is the business of responding."

When playing trombone it's difficult to HEAR other stuff going on. You have to learn to hear it in your head. Other instruments aren't really like that. Even trumpet isn't like that - you still have the bone conduction, but your own sound is farther away from your ears, so you can hear other things better.

[VJOFan]

Great point! What kinds of things did you do to dig in and get the technique automatic? What we’re the exercises you used to be able to hear what you were going to do, based on the tune?
Those are the kinds of questions I’m asking myself and would love to hear how others developed those skills.

x

I wrote out pages and pages of what would look like bass lines going through specific chord patterns covering the keys, minor/major, ranges and as many permutations of voice leading as I could think of. Then I practiced them until I didn't need the paper. After that, it was a matter of fooling with the rhythms and adding passing tones.

At the same time I had a few J J Johnson albums on repeat in my apartment and had the good fortune to hook up for two or three nights a week with the house band in a jazz bar in the Korean city I was working in as an English teacher for a year.

The end of that year was my peak in terms of jazz playing.

[mgladdish]

Lots of advice here about developing improvisational skills in general. Of course this is good, but it's not actually the question.

I've been thinking quite a lot about what makes the trombone unique, and therefore what we can use in improvisation that the trombone is uniquely suited to.

The closeness to the human voice was mentioned in passing above, so that's one area you can lean in to.

* Vocal-like phrasing and dynamics (I don't hear improvisers using dynamics anything like as much as is possible)
* Blues. Nothing sounds as bluesy as a trombone sliding around.
* Microtones. Why not take advantage of the slide to play in-between the semitones? Instead of taking 2 steps to get from Bb down to Ab, take 3. Or 4.
* Anger. Have you heard Alistair White blow the hell out of a top Eb? That's exhilarating. Or Gary Valente building an entire solo out of just one incredibly loud, raw, note?

Ironically, some of the most uniquely suited music has been done by other instrumentalists. Who on the trombone is out there playing ballads like Mathias Eick, or yearning folk songs like Jan Garbarek? Or even multitracking acapella like Jacob Collier? These styles would all work fabulously on the trombone.

[soseggnchips]

Those are of course important, but I’m wondering if one of our limitations is trying to learn to improvise on the trombone in ways that are suited to other instruments and not fully appropriate for “us”.

I'd actually take it a step further and say it's less about finding an approach that's suitable for "us" as trombonists, and more about finding an approach that resonates with you as an individual.

Improvisation is quite a personal thing - some people take a very analytical, theory led approach, some are very aural, some are very much about understanding the tradition and drawing on that. Good improvisers are generally strong in all of these areas, regardless of which comes most naturally to them.

As a minimum, to improvise, you'll need to:

• Know a bit of theory;

• Have a good ear;

• Understand what works stylistically in whatever kind of music you're playing;

• Have sufficient instrumental technique to be able to execute all of the above.

You'll also need to figure out how and when to draw on each of these elements to get good music coming out of the trombone. Done right they support rather than contradict each other.

My suggestion: try a bit of everything. If you find something that helps you make progress, keep pulling on that thread. If after a while you feel like you've plateau'd, circle back and try something else.

Having said all of that, for most people the obstacle isn't what they work on but the amount of time they put into it. There seems to be a common misconception that improvisation is a natural ability rather than a skill that can be developed.

[jazztonight]

(I'm reviving this older chat because I think it's really important.)

I'm a lifelong jazz musician on other instruments (piano, sax, flute) and I'm now 5 years learning to play the trombone. What an incredible instrument. And a bitch to play! (I didn't say that first.)

So after 5 years, my teacher (an incredible jazz trombonist & university instructor, as well as a classical performer with a philharmonic orchestra) has gotten me to the point where I'm not worrying about the key, scales, positions, and a lot of other stuff. He emphasizes "singing" through the horn.

To that end, I'm using iRealPro, setting up a number of standards to play in a given key, and improvising as well as playing the head on those songs (e.g. All the Things you Are, How High the Moon, Gone With the Wind, I'm Old Fashioned, etc.) and just playing (without any lead sheets or anything but a tuner--to keep me honest).

I decided that since there are 12 keys and 12 months, this year I'll attempt doing a particular key of the month. This month it's Db.

Wish me luck! So far, so good. I can tell I'm getting better all the time. That's a good thing, since I'm 77 years old (just sayin').

btw, I still work on my sight reading, play duets with a trumpet player each week, and play (usually) the 3rd trombone part in a community band that meets weekly. Sometimes I think I really suck. Other times I'm impressed that "I could play that." But at the moment, I'm the only trombonist in the section who even thinks about improvising, and they're all good players.

[Sesquitone]

How do you develop your improvisational skills in ways unique to the trombone?

A good answer to this can be found in the ITA Journal, Vol 25, No. 2, Spring 1997: 'Choosing Alternate Positions for Bebop Lines", by Antonio J. García.
www.garciamusic.com/educator/articles/a ... tions.html

However, there seems to be some 'disagreement' in the discussion here about the definition of relevant technical terms such as lip-slurring, playing against the grain, fretting, and planing. I understand these terms to have the following definitions. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Lip slur:
A slurred interval in either direction between any two different harmonics (adjacent or not) without tongued articulation, in the same or different hand-slide position(s). [Players of valved brass instruments seem to restrict the definition to using the same valve combination. This seems too restrictive. Valve changes don't 'help' with lip slurs. They only 'help' (i.e. require less tongue articulation) when staying on a single harmonic—which is not a lip slur.]

Playing against the grain:
Lip-slurred intervals between adjacent harmonics, either up or down in pitch, while the hand-slide moves, respectively, 'down' (i.e. out) or 'up' (i.e in). Strictly speaking, this ('opposing-direction' feature) applies to major-seconds below the ninth harmonic and to minor-seconds below the seventeenth harmonic (above which, 'directions' are the same), and to some larger intervals between some lower harmonics.

Fretting:
Like a well-known guitar technique, some short phrases (lip-slurred or articulated along a single harmonic, or combinations) that span a relatively short width of hand-slide positions can be transposed to a different 'key' using a set of slide positions that have the same relative sequence--provided they still fit on the slide.

Planing:
This is fretting of two or more phrases in a sequence, moving chromatically, either up (in) or down (out) in pitch (slide position).

***********
Because the term 'playing-against-the-grain' is not strictly correct for larger intervals (or small intervals in the high register), I would like to suggest a more precise (and 'graphic') term:
'Between-Adjacent-Harmonics Lip Slur'
[Where 'Adjacent' is the important feature.]
In acronymland, this would be known as the BAHLS technique (for any sequence of intervals and any register). And it's one of the important techniques (mostly) unique to the trombone--and, as pointed out above, very often used in improvisation for (portions of) arpeggios and, especially, scales.





.

[Sesquitone]

As an example of BAHLS technique for playing arpeggios and scales, consider the following ETSP Charts. At top-left, we have some BAHLS for Bb6 and Gm7 arpeggios throughout a wide range: red dots connected by red lines. Note the multiple 'trajectories', using 'alternate' (optional) positions. Also shown are the related diminished-seventh arpeggios (arising from the complementary notes of the corresponding 8-note scale): green dots connected by green lines.

At top-right, we see the corresponding 8-note scales. The red dots outline:
Bb, C, D, Eb, F, F#, G, A, B, (Bb).
In duple time, this emphasises the Bb6 arpeggio. Alternatively:
G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F, F#, (G).
Emphasising the Gm7.

These 8-note scales are sometimes known as the major-bebop and relative minor-seven-bebop scales.

Te colour-code is as follows.
(i) for BAHLS (Between-Adjacent-Harmonic Lip Slurs):
pink = whole-tone
blue = semitone
(ii) for ASH (articulated Along a Single Harmonic):
green = whole-tone
orange = semitone

If we start on any green dot and follow the scale in duple time, we outline the complementary scale, emphasising a diminished-seven arpeggio. Spelled enharmonically:
A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F, F#, G, (A).
Or any of the other cyclic permutations. This is an important scale and acts as the appropriate 'dominant-seventh' harmony for the respective major-sixth and minor-seventh harmonies.

The lower ETSP Chart outlines some characteristic 'cells'. An octagonal cell (coloured yellow) in between the two clefs. Followed above by a hexagonal cell (light pink). Then two little grey cells (quadrilaterals). Then two more pink hexagons, followed by more octagons, then some more hexagons and little grey cells in the very high register.

Try 'circling' around the octagons in duple time, using portamento on the orange semitones. Or the hexagons in triple time. All in one breath with no other articulation! One effective improv technique—only available on the slide trombone (as originally asked).

Different scales have their own characteristic cell shapes and patterns.

I have indicated some BAHLS for chromatic (light full lines) and whole-tone (dashed lines) runs within the Bb6/Gm7 structure. These can be used for 'colourful' flourishes within the scales—to great effect in improvising.

Have fun trying out some of the less 'obvious' position combinations for these scales and arpeggios—reading directly off the ETSP Charts. [Homework assignment: transpose to other roots (e.g. by fretting).]



.

[NotSoTrickyNotSam]

When it comes to improvisational skills that are unique to the trombone, nobody has surpassed Tricky Sam Nanton.



Has anyone played the instrument more eloquently than that? I don't think so. And to the extent that jazz trombone playing has been washed clean of this sort of vocal inflections and effects, it's harder to play jazz idiomatically on a trombone than on sax or trumpet. I’m not sure what the practical lesson is—I haven’t figured out how to bring much Tricky Sam into the music I’m trying to play. But if you want to understand the potential of trombone as an improvisational instrument, you’ve gotta pay at least as much attention to the people who made the most of the instrument as you pay to the ones who succeeded in spite of it.

[baileyman]

There were a good number of players who played with huge imagination and color like Tricky Sam. Phil Wilson, who is such a payer himself, points to Vic Dickensen as a favorite.

To Sesquitone's point, I think I posted previously a line from Carl Fontana stitching together scales with chromatics, a Db pentatonic in a Bb minor blues, going up, the last note down, all but last two sixteenths:

F Ab A Bb Db Eb E F Ab Bb Db Bb
1 3 2 1 2 3 2 1 1 1 2 1

duh doodle doodl-uh doodl-uh doo doo doo

[tbdana]

[Never mind.]

[Mr412]

This! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Sesquitone]

To Sesquitone's point, I think I posted previously a line from Carl Fontana stitching together scales with chromatics, a Db pentatonic in a Bb minor blues, going up, the last note down, all but last two sixteenths:

F Ab A Bb Db Eb E F Ab Bb Db Bb
1 3 2 1 2 3 2 1 1 1 2 1

duh doodle doodl-uh doodl-uh doo doo doo

The first ETSP Chart, below, shows this original Fontana excerpt. Note the ASH chromatics (green arrows)—i.e. along single harmonics (rather than between different harmonics). And the "1st"-position Ab4.

The second Chart shows a similar phrase, beginning the same way, but then using ascending BAHLS chromatics out to the F4 (blue arrows), continuing with the BAHLS run up to Db5. Then a slight variation using descending BAHLS chromatics back down to Bb4. The portion from Bb3 up to Db5 and back down to Bb4 can be played as a series of lip-slurs between adjacent harmonics (no doodle-tongue required), outlining the Db pentatonic scale.

Emphasising, once again, this unique property of the slide trombone—especially for improvisation.

.

[SamBTbrn]

I can't recomend enough checking out the videos from Barnaby Dickinson on youtube / his patreon. Hundreds of 60 second / 90 second videos on differnt lines, scales, patterns, chords etc that work on trombone. Plus longer masterclasses on trombone soloing. All really focusing on doing it around the trombone.

https://www.youtube.com/@BarnabyDickinson/videos
https://www.patreon.com/barnabydickinson/posts

[baileyman]

Barnaby is a great surprise. Decidedly unEnglish.

[Nolankberk]

aaron eckert playing a blues, solo at 2:20. great use of turns, good harmonic content and a little bit of slide scooping. i think this is a great example of making a solo "trombonistic" without going full dixieland style.