Pedal Tones with small mouthpiece

[FrancescoS]

Hello, I'm Francesco, a trombonist from italy (sorry for bad english).
Like I wrote I'm trying to play pedals with a small mouthpiece, similar to a 12C cause it is my favourite.
I never had a good range on low, but I'm focused to emprove it.
Some problems:
I need almous 10 minutes of practicing to gain a stable Bb.
I'll reach a G after playing at least half an hour on pedal, and if I go on the upper register then I must restart from zero.
Cannot play good tones with breath air, I must attack with the tounge between the lips to play it on time; when I try only air attack, or moving from low Bb to the pedal register on legato I cannot skip the F false tones beetween them.
Can play a good legato on time from pedal Bb to the upper Bb but not the oppisite.
If I attack also Bb on the upper register with "more tongue" the sound is a shit but flexibility to the pedal is more efficent.
I tried few times with larger mouthpiece, but generally the problems are the sames, with less evidences.

I don't understan if is a throat problem, but I suppose it, any siggestion?

Thanks to everyone

[baileyman]

Sounds like tight chops. I experience the same some mornings. Sometimes on a day they just won't relax. But usually, the pedals are there, this on a .500 bore and 11C. Getting to the point where the pedals were usually there was a process of putting them into most every routine. I can recall many days of doing a brief warmup and then getting to the pedals and working on slurs, octaves, partial skipping like 2, 1, 3, 2, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2. Or upside down 3, 4, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 3. Later I added tonguings and rhythms. Swing eighths are a good challenge. All the while trying to sort out how to get access to the pedals faster. Finally I understood what worked for me.

Play 2nd partial with a small mouth volume, then make it suddenly larger to get to the 1st partial. And reverse.

This encourages the chops to be loose on 2nd partial, ideally the same looseness as for 1st partial. In this way one can trill the octaves. Though Gb and F continue to challenge.

[imsevimse]

Hello, I'm Francesco, a trombonist from italy (sorry for bad english).
Like I wrote I'm trying to play pedals with a small mouthpiece, similar to a 12C cause it is my favourite.
I never had a good range on low, but I'm focused to emprove it.
Some problems:
I need almous 10 minutes of practicing to gain a stable Bb.
I'll reach a G after playing at least half an hour on pedal, and if I go on the upper register then I must restart from zero.
Cannot play good tones with breath air, I must attack with the tounge between the lips to play it on time; when I try only air attack, or moving from low Bb to the pedal register on legato I cannot skip the F false tones beetween them.
Can play a good legato on time from pedal Bb to the upper Bb but not the oppisite.
If I attack also Bb on the upper register with "more tongue" the sound is a shit but flexibility to the pedal is more efficent.
I tried few times with larger mouthpiece, but generally the problems are the sames, with less evidences.

I don't understan if is a throat problem, but I suppose it, any siggestion?

Thanks to everyone

To me the mouthpiece rim makes some difference. On a 12C I can get the pedal Bb, A and Ab but on a 6 1/2 AL I can also get the pedal G, Gb and a (weak) F. If I want to go lower I need to use "a raised emboushure". This usually means you move the mouthpiece higher to a point where the bottomlip no longer is in the mouthpiece. You then use only the top lip to make tho tone. I happen to do a variant of that which is just the opposite so I move the mouthpiece down instead. The upper lip then is removed to be outside the rim, placed onto the rim and the bottom lip is what vibrates.

In my experience most tenor trombonists starting to get problems around pedal Ab-G on small mouthpieces and need to do some kind of shift to play lower.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

Shifting works for pedals on a small mouthpiece but does nothing to help low range in general.

I can help you tremendously with a very short Skype lesson if you're interested. With a little diagnostic time to see how your chops work I can show you how to get into the low range.

[FrancescoS]

Sounds like tight chops. I experience the same some mornings. Sometimes on a day they just won't relax. But usually, the pedals are there, this on a .500 bore and 11C. Getting to the point where the pedals were usually there was a process of putting them into most every routine. I can recall many days of doing a brief warmup and then getting to the pedals and working on slurs, octaves, partial skipping like 2, 1, 3, 2, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2. Or upside down 3, 4, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, 4, 3. Later I added tonguings and rhythms. Swing eighths are a good challenge. All the while trying to sort out how to get access to the pedals faster. Finally I understood what worked for me.

Play 2nd partial with a small mouth volume, then make it suddenly larger to get to the 1st partial. And reverse.

This encourages the chops to be loose on 2nd partial, ideally the same looseness as for 1st partial. In this way one can trill the octaves. Though Gb and F continue to challenge.

Thank you! I'll try!

[FrancescoS]

Hello, I'm Francesco, a trombonist from italy (sorry for bad english).
Like I wrote I'm trying to play pedals with a small mouthpiece, similar to a 12C cause it is my favourite.
I never had a good range on low, but I'm focused to emprove it.
Some problems:
I need almous 10 minutes of practicing to gain a stable Bb.
I'll reach a G after playing at least half an hour on pedal, and if I go on the upper register then I must restart from zero.
Cannot play good tones with breath air, I must attack with the tounge between the lips to play it on time; when I try only air attack, or moving from low Bb to the pedal register on legato I cannot skip the F false tones beetween them.
Can play a good legato on time from pedal Bb to the upper Bb but not the oppisite.
If I attack also Bb on the upper register with "more tongue" the sound is a shit but flexibility to the pedal is more efficent.
I tried few times with larger mouthpiece, but generally the problems are the sames, with less evidences.

I don't understan if is a throat problem, but I suppose it, any siggestion?

Thanks to everyone

To me the mouthpiece rim makes some difference. On a 12C I can get the pedal Bb, A and Ab but on a 6 1/2 AL I can also get the pedal G, Gb and a (weak) F. If I want to go lower I need to use "a raised emboushure". This usually means you move the mouthpiece higher to a point where the bottomlip no longer is in the mouthpiece. You then use only the top lip to make tho tone. I happen to do a variant of that which is just the opposite so I move the mouthpiece down instead. The upper lip then is removed to be outside the rim, placed onto the rim and the bottom lip is what vibrates.

In my experience most tenor trombonists starting to get problems around pedal Ab-G on small mouthpieces and need to do some kind of shift to play lower.

/Tom

Yeah, I did the same on tuba pedal sometimes ago.
But I would like to approach pedal only to sound better on the higher partials. I will keep on practicing and just see what happens

[FrancescoS]

Shifting works for pedals on a small mouthpiece but does nothing to help low range in general.

I can help you tremendously with a very short Skype lesson if you're interested. With a little diagnostic time to see how your chops work I can show you how to get into the low range.

Thanks, I'll let you know, I'll keep on practicing for a while.

[harrisonreed]

It doesn't sound like the 12C is a good fit for you. With the right cup/rim diameter, you can play pedal F or lower, even on a shallow mouthpiece.

[FrancescoS]

It doesn't sound like the 12C is a good fit for you. With the right cup/rim diameter, you can play pedal F or lower, even on a shallow mouthpiece.

Do you think that if you don't reach that pedal is the wrong?
I don't know, I like the bombing pressure you can fire from a 12c and I don't have any problems on the usual register.
Considering I play funk new orleans the most, from f to ffffff and I don't really care about harmonic and dark sound. For that I got a large bore trombone and fewer problems on pedals, but still they are.

[harrisonreed]

It doesn't sound like the 12C is a good fit for you. With the right cup/rim diameter, you can play pedal F or lower, even on a shallow mouthpiece.

Do you think that if you don't reach that pedal is the wrong?
I don't know, I like the bombing pressure you can fire from a 12c and I don't have any problems on the usual register.
Considering I play funk new orleans the most, from f to ffffff and I don't really care about harmonic and dark sound. For that I got a large bore trombone and fewer problems on pedals, but still they are.

You can have the sound you are after for NOLO and funk, and the dynamics you want, AND a good low range, AND pedals. But probably not on the 12C. From what I've seen, that diameter is just too small to let most people's embouchures function properly for the range you're dealing with.

The 12C is a very old fashioned mouthpiece that is from an era where cup depths were tied to cup widths. If you wanted that shallow cup you had to take it with a 12C rim and deal with it, crappy low range included.

If you see someone struggling at the track trying to run sprints in running spikes that are 5 sizes too small, you tell them to get running spikes in the right size. If mouthpieces are like shoes, it used to be that you only had one size of running spikes. Maybe combat boots fit your feet better, but you won't be running sprints in combat boots, either. That isn't the case any more. You can get a "12C" in any size now.

[MStarke]

For myself I have zero ambition to play or practice pedal tones on small bore. I understand it might be impressive to some and I am pretty sure I can do it, but why? Is there a piece of music that asks for it?

[AtomicClock]

For myself I have zero ambition to play or practice pedal tones on small bore. I understand it might be impressive to some and I am pretty sure I can do it, but why? Is there a piece of music that asks for it?

Arthur Pryor played them in his solos. Sure, they're usually played on large bore today. But that's just a side effect of the large bore's domination of the academic environment, which is where recitals occur.

[harrisonreed]

I mean, if it was between

A) sounding like a small bore with a good upper register and not being able to play pedals and having a weak low register (12C)

And

B) Still sounding like a small bore with a possibly easier upper register but ALSO being able to play a pedal C below pedal Bb (DE XT N106/C+/D3 on a 3BF), which would you take?



This is one of those times where, sure, let's not seek solutions first with equipment, but ... "Here is your sign."

[baileyman]

Pryor seems like a good refutation to the narrow piece issue.

[FrancescoS]

I mean, if it was between

A) sounding like a small bore with a good upper register and not being able to play pedals and having a weak low register (12C)

And

B) Still sounding like a small bore with a possibly easier upper register but ALSO being able to play a pedal C below pedal Bb (DE XT N106/C+/D3 on a 3BF), which would you take?



This is one of those times where, sure, let's not seek solutions first with equipment, but ... "Here is your sign."

Ok, thanks for the reply.
I'm probably too much mad for 12c, but it's not a pure 12c. It's a wedge 96c, and I feel it more like a larger mouthpiece on lips, without pressure response, and sounds good on everything. And maybe I dont want to change now because of the expenses I had
I agree with you that 12C is really hard for pedal. I tried sometimes ago but give up after a while. I don't feel the same on this. Just to let you know that I'm using a "larger" mp.
Maybe I can just forget pedals and live without them with this trombone. But I've more endurance with this mp for sure, and playing often in a brass for 1/2 hour without stop could be the main issue not to change my set.

More then this I have some problems also with pedals on large bore, so I don't think that the mp is the real problem. I'm practicing and I obteined more on the large tbone and less on the little.
I was asking if is impossible to gain more pedals (maybe just an F) with the small ones and not everyone has the same opinion.
I'll give me some time to practice and will understand better what to do.

Thanks to everyone!

[harrisonreed]

Ah, a Wedge mouthpiece! The plot thickens.

I'm not sure you were quite understanding what I was getting at about cup width vs cup depth. This concept was revolutionary to me back in like 2013. I used to think that if I just practiced harder, and pushed past the pain a little longer, that I would improve my upper register. I had been told that trying out different mouthpieces would ruin my playing. So for about 13 years my range on large tenor was from pedal Ab to high C and I was getting jaw problems. I tried the Alessi 1C mouthpiece as a kind of joke in 2013. My range was suddenly from two octaves below to , without any practice or period to get used to the mouthpiece. And it has stayed that way ever since switching to that cup diameter.

You seem to be married to the idea of the 12C. It's not impossible to play pedals on that. But it might take a great deal of practice, compromises, and finesse to work around the embouchure mechanics.

I'm sure you'll get to where you want to be, one way or the other!

[Elow]

Shifting works for pedals on a small mouthpiece but does nothing to help low range in general.

I can help you tremendously with a very short Skype lesson if you're interested. With a little diagnostic time to see how your chops work I can show you how to get into the low range.

Hi Doug, check your email from me, Elijah Low

[FrancescoS]

Ah, a Wedge mouthpiece! The plot thickens.

I'm not sure you were quite understanding what I was getting at about cup width vs cup depth. This concept was revolutionary to me back in like 2013. I used to think that if I just practiced harder, and pushed past the pain a little longer, that I would improve my upper register. I had been told that trying out different mouthpieces would ruin my playing. So for about 13 years my range on large tenor was from pedal Ab to high C and I was getting jaw problems. I tried the Alessi 1C mouthpiece as a kind of joke in 2013. My range was suddenly from two octaves below to , without any practice or period to get used to the mouthpiece. And it has stayed that way ever since switching to that cup diameter.

You seem to be married to the idea of the 12C. It's not impossible to play pedals on that. But it might take a great deal of practice, compromises, and finesse to work around the embouchure mechanics.

I'm sure you'll get to where you want to be, one way or the other!

Ok good, so do you approve the diameter of wedge?
I feel confort, reaching easy and loud high register. Can't say the same on a classic 12C or also the heritage of denis wick that I tried and closed my lips too much.
And no jaw problems at all, I'm trying to practice without tensions.

[MStarke]

For myself I have zero ambition to play or practice pedal tones on small bore. I understand it might be impressive to some and I am pretty sure I can do it, but why? Is there a piece of music that asks for it?

Arthur Pryor played them in his solos. Sure, they're usually played on large bore today. But that's just a side effect of the large bore's domination of the academic environment, which is where recitals occur.

Good point, I forgot about that.
In the end my thinking was more focused on:
Most likely there are much much more important thing to work on with the smallbore than worrying about pedal tones.
And yes, it could well be that a 12c-sized mouthpiece is not ideal, but I would not make a mouthpiece change - or work on substantial technical questions - in order to make pedals work on smallbore.

[FrancescoS]

Arthur Pryor played them in his solos. Sure, they're usually played on large bore today. But that's just a side effect of the large bore's domination of the academic environment, which is where recitals occur.

Good point, I forgot about that.
In the end my thinking was more focused on:
Most likely there are much much more important thing to work on with the smallbore than worrying about pedal tones.
And yes, it could well be that a 12c-sized mouthpiece is not ideal, but I would not make a mouthpiece change - or work on substantial technical questions - in order to make pedals work on smallbore.

You're right! I keep working on other things, not too much, not too hard, without worries.

[baileyman]

Anyone know what Abe Lincoln's equipment was? Certainly small bore. Probably small piece. The guy had earthshaking double pedals and a 16th partial Bb. Together with Prior, he would seem to indicate just about anything is possible.

[BGuttman]

This is apparently Abe Lincoln's trombone:


Looks like a Martin of some sort.

Do not confuse with the enormous Conn Director put on the Lincoln Memorial

[Wilktone]

But I would like to approach pedal only to sound better on the higher partials. I will keep on practicing and just see what happens

Practicing pedals can help the rest of your range - but only if you're already playing them in a way that it is correct for the entire range. I haven't watched you play, but based on your description my guess is that your pedal range isn't working the same. Practicing pedals wrong too much can interfere with your typical playing range.

Touch base with Doug or reach out to me. We can take a look at how you're playing currently and what sort of things you need to work on to connect your pedals to the rest of your range. Doug would be able to tell you much more about your mouthpiece choices and possibly recommend a better one for your face and the style you're playing.

Considering your funk/New Orleans focus I would say that there's little need for you to obsess over playing pedals, unless you find yourself needing to perform them frequently. They can be helpful for overall playing (when played correctly), but if you're not using them in performance they can do more harm than good. You can get by and be a great tenor trombonist without every really practicing pedal tones, depending on what you're performing and whether you actually need to play them.

Dave

[GGJazz]

Hello all.
Hi FrancescoS.

I play with Wedge mpc too, from maybe 11 years .
I think they are super- excellent . I have never come back to others brand , after I discovered it.

With these mpcs , it is really clear to understand if they works for you : if you like it , they give you very good results ; if you don' t , you stop using them after two/three days because you feel too much discomfort .

People are a bit skeptical about this brand , but I guess that maybe 90% of them have not even give a try to it.
Of course , as for every brand , they are not good for everyone : there are Wedge-responders , and Wedge-non responders .

About your mpc , the 96C , there are two options for the throath : 0.240 inches and 0.250 inches.
I don' t know what you have choose ; in my opinion with such a mpc , would have been better the lager 0.250 inches one .

Anyway , regardless the music one is performing , in my opinion would be better to have the ability to play also in the range that we do not need " at work" . I am a bass trbn player , but I practice also in the upper range , trying to develop consistent high tones , also if I do not need it in my current playing. So , a tenor player would be better if he were able to play also low notes and pedals , too .

Regards
Giancarlo

[FrancescoS]

Hello all.
Hi FrancescoS.

I play with Wedge mpc too, from maybe 11 years .
I think they are super- excellent . I have never come back to others brand , after I discovered it.

With these mpcs , it is really clear to understand if they works for you : if you like it , they give you very good results ; if you don' t , you stop using them after two/three days because you feel too much discomfort .

People are a bit skeptical about this brand , but I guess that maybe 90% of them have not even give a try to it.
Of course , as for every brand , they are not good for everyone : there are Wedge-responders , and Wedge-non responders .

About your mac , the 96C , there are two options for the throath : 0.240 inches and 0.250 inches.
I don' t know what you have choose ; in my opinion with such a mpc , would have been better the lager 0.250 inches one .

Anyway , regardless the music one is performing , in my opinion would be better to have the ability to play also in the range that we do not need " at work" . I am a bass trbn player , but I practice also in the upper range , trying to develop consistent high tones , also if I do not need it in my current playing. So , a tenor player would be better if he were able to play also low notes and pedals , too .

Regards
Giancarlo

Thanks Giancarlo, yes I got the 0.250 hybrid and is confortable.
I don't think i'm gonna change it soon, good to know your experience. I'll try my best, without particular goals on pedals if the mpc doesn't allow them, but is really usefull know different stories and considerations.
Thanks again!

[baileyman]

This is apparently Abe Lincoln's trombone:


Looks like a Martin of some sort.

Do not confuse with the enormous Conn Director put on the Lincoln Memorial

Hmm, looks like a Bach 6 with a NY12 piece. Thanks, Bruce!