"playing on top of the sound" and "taper point-" two really cool ideas

[Burgerbob]

I recently watched this interview with Jim Pandolfi, former 3rd trumpet at the Met. The whole thing is fun, but his point about the taper point and playing on top of the sound really resonated with me- it explains so many issues I've had, especially doubling.

The video is set to the time stamp of the relevant bits, but as I said the whole thing is good viewing.

[MTbassbone]

I love this video and the principles he bestows.

[AtomicClock]

I'm mostly baffled. He sounds profound, but I don't think his words actually convey much.
Edit: no, that's not fair. The bits about the top of the sound and "taper point" mean nothing to me. The other stuff made more sense.

[Burgerbob]

I thought his definition of taper point was pretty succinct. If you can start and end a note with a beautiful, easy taper, then you're in the right spot. If you can only chop the ends of your notes off, then you're probably too low in the partial.

[Olofson]

Wow! Great! He is saying so many good things! Thank you for posting! On top of the sound! Exactly! Easy taper is one of the most important thing that so many student miss.

[imsevimse]

He makes a lot of sense everything except his mouthpiece advice. He basically said "play the largest mouthpiece you can handle". I have heard others say the opposite. "Play the smallest mouthpiece you can get a good sound on in the whole register". Maybe it turns out to be the same mouthpiece in the end? He said if you want a big sound think small and "aim on top" of the sound, that is how to make a free singing sound. It is like magic when it happens and everything can only fall into into place if there is a good sound. All that talk about importance of sound in all processes makes a lot of sense. Many of us work too hard and that is what holds us back. So true.

About "play the largest mouthpiece".
When it was spoken about mouthpieces he seems to have played a Bach 5C first and then somebody made him switch to a Bach 1C and from then he did stuck with that mouthpece. He has not experimented with mouthpieces.

It had been cheaper for me to just find the largest trombone mouthpiece and stick with that piece instead of discovering every size there is and settle on "a bunch" of mouthpieces to cover all needs

I liked the video a lot!!!

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I've seen that before, and he's absolutely right with everything he says. I put it very differently but they're the same concepts. A few quotes I like: "Most people are completely clueless." He talks about paradoxes - and traditional teaching - "it's all wrong." "Wrong, wrong, and wrong."

And when it comes to mouthpieces,
"the largest mouthpiece you can handle"
and
"the smallest mouthpiece you can get a good sound on in the whole register"
are actually the same thing.

[harrisonreed]

Watching now. Thoughts as I go along: No idea what playing on top of the sound means. Why not in the center. Why not at the bottom. It means nothing.

People playing flat, yes, always. You hear mostly dull, boring, flat sounds from technically good trombone players who don't have "it". And it's flat because they are trying to play with this artificially "big" sound that is really just unfocused, not "big". I think this comes out of people using mouthpieces that are too deep in the cup, and too tight in the throat, and trying to sound huge on it, through practice in tiny practice rooms at school. It might be that they choose that gear initially because they mostly play in tiny practice rooms, actually. You get this "blah" sound.

The only way you can have control is to let go, yeah, I agree. The horn has to slot together with you, you can't force the horn.

If you want to sound big, you gotta play small, yeah again I think he's right -- same as above with people trying to sound artificially huge in tiny rooms with too "open" playing.

Taper zone, is confusing, at first he is talking about slotting a note and people playing artificially low on the the pitch. Then he's talking about tapers like they are dynamics, letting a note taper out rather than abruptly ending it with an "open end". How can you have tapers on both ends, instead of being "open' on both ends, if you start the note in the middle of the taper like he says students should? Confusing. Slotting, yes, but you can't taper every note dynamically, that'll depend on the music.

[Burgerbob]

Watching now. Thoughts as I go along: No idea what playing on top of the sound means. Why not in the center. Why not at the bottom. It means nothing.



Taper zone, is confusing, at first he is talking about slotting a note and people playing artificially low on the the pitch. Then he's talking about tapers like they are dynamics, letting a note taper out rather than abruptly ending it with an "open end". How can you have tapers on both ends, instead of being "open' on both ends, if you start the note in the middle of the taper like he says students should? Confusing. Slotting, yes, but you can't taper every note dynamically, that'll depend on the music.

It does, though. I think you're probably someone that has done this correctly for a long time, so it doesn't land with you- but I was someone sunk too deep. Playing "on top" feels TOTALLY different and much better than how I was before, and it's really obvious on the doubles like large tenor and tuba. On bass I think it's fairly clear as well, the low range is a totally different animal this way.

As for taper zone, he's not saying everything needs to have < and > at the ends of every note, just that it's possible and easy. Again, I was someone that couldn't do this because I was sunk deep into the sound.

[ryebrye]

Maybe you should make a video showing an example of "not playing on top" (and what it looks like / sounds like) to an example where you are playing on top.

The biggest thing missing from the original video are concrete examples.

[imsevimse]

Watching now. Thoughts as I go along: No idea what playing on top of the sound means. Why not in the center. Why not at the bottom. It means nothing.

People playing flat, yes, always. You hear mostly dull, boring, flat sounds from technically good trombone players who don't have "it". And it's flat because they are trying to play with this artificially "big" sound that is really just unfocused, not "big". I think this comes out of people using mouthpieces that are too deep in the cup, and too tight in the throat, and trying to sound huge on it, through practice in tiny practice rooms at school. It might be that they choose that gear initially because they mostly play in tiny practice rooms, actually. You get this "blah" sound.

The only way you can have control is to let go, yeah, I agree. The horn has to slot together with you, you can't force the horn.

If you want to sound big, you gotta play small, yeah again I think he's right -- same as above with people trying to sound artificially huge in tiny rooms with too "open" playing.

"playing on top of the sound" of course is "a picture" but as he also speaks about intonation and says James Goldway sometimes plays slightly sharp but still "on top of the sound" and that "sharp is better than out of tune" - somewhat of a joke I suppose but I'm not really sure? Some talk I've heard from violinists claim a soloist (violinist) is alloud to be sharp They state it is a part of the soloists expression to be sharp.

I understand that either his talk resonates with you or not, and my belief is you probably need to have been travelling his path to get it. It is also possible we interpret what he says differently but still are helped from it.

FOR ME: To "play on top of the sound" resonates. It's when everything is just right for me, when I make my best sound efortless and can't even feel my lips vibrate. It's when the sound just rings without much felt work. For me I find the "sweet spot" when "I aim high" in the sound. It's the spot where I find the balance (resistance/resonanse) and my sound grows with warmth and becomes what I prevaile as a sonorous sound.

It was years ago I discovered this sensation and as I remember and reflects of the process, some notes then started to came out as sharp. I don't mean sharp as in "pushed/sharp" but as in "relaxed/sharp". To compensate I recorded myself a lot and started to concentrate to play "as flat as I possibly dare".

It was years ago I discovered this. As I recorded myself frequently I noticed I had a "psychological problem" I was more tolerant with sharp playing compared to flat playing. I noticed this since I rarely was flat but sharp I was frequently. I also noticed something even more strange. As listener I was equally disturbed by both flat and sharp playing but when actually playing I was a lot more dusturbed by my own flat playing. I wasn't even aware of a lot of my sharp playing since it didn't seem to bother me as much behind the bell. I thought this was real weird that's why I think I have a "nut-brain". I can not explain this psychologically, but it did lead to me making a descition to allways play everything "as flat as I dare". Anyway, result is I became aware of this phenomen and now play in tune (a lot).

To me "to play on rop of the sound" resonates with all this work I had to do at that time when I discovered "my best sound" .

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

Well sure, "playing on top of the sound" = "playing with your best sound". A fancy way to say something that isn't concrete.

I like a lot of what he is saying, but the "profound" parts aren't really concrete ideas. The discussion we had about playing in the slot and getting the lips to vibrate in sync with the vibrating air in the horn was much more concrete and was talking about the same exact thing. It seemed like not too many people could come to an agreement there though. In this video, the teacher describes the student playing a second line G (ie middle F) and coming in flat, slowly rising in pitch, until it sounds good. He's describing the process of slotting a note. The students tend to play flat, and that partial is sharp. Of course they will come in "flat", especially if they are used to bending that pitch down with their lips AND play generally low on the pitch to sound "big".

I see this video as someone with a lot of cred getting after the same idea as slotting a pitch and letting the lips vibrate with the horn, but using abstract terminology, and people are eating it up.

It's fine, it just seems to be a step back from the other discussion we all had. Maybe abstract thoughts resonate better, pun intended.

[Burgerbob]

Well sure, "playing on top of the sound" = "playing with your best sound". A fancy way to say something that isn't concrete.

I like a lot of what he is saying, but the "profound" parts aren't really concrete ideas. The discussion we had about playing in the slot and getting the lips to vibrate in sync with the vibrating air in the horn was much more concrete and was talking about the same exact thing. It seemed like not too many people could come to an agreement there though. In this video, the teacher describes the student playing a second line G (ie middle F) and coming in flat, slowly rising in pitch, until it sounds good. He's describing the process of slotting a note. The students tend to play flat, and that partial is sharp. Of course they will come in "flat", especially if they are used to bending that pitch down with their lips AND play generally low on the pitch to sound "big".

I see this video as someone with a lot of cred getting after the same idea as slotting a pitch and letting the lips vibrate with the horn, but using abstract terminology, and people are eating it up.

It's fine, it just seems to be a step back from the other discussion we all had. Maybe abstract thoughts resonate better, pun intended.

I think it's more concrete than you give it credit for. We can say "play with your best sound" all you want, but it gives little direction- for me as well as imsevimse, the "on top of the sound" comment gets us to that best sound. It's interesting, my tuning slide position did not change- I'm not playing sharper than I used to, but I do feel that I am playing higher in the slot where things want to happen.

Slotting a note is exactly that, but saying "slotting a note" also has no direction- on trombone, the slot for the 3rd partial is nearly a minor 3rd large. If you wanted to play in the real center of it, you'd play a flat E. 2nd partial would be a flat Ab. Finding that spot near the TOP of the partial, where the horn actually wants to work, is paramount to that best sound- and lots of people (including myself) aimed just slightly low on that and make their lives much more difficult.

Yes, this resonated with me MUCH more than someone saying "sweet spot" or "center" by itself.

[harrisonreed]

Now, where he says playing in control means you have to let go, 100 times yes on that one. Again, he is saying the same thing as playing on top of the sound or slotting. Aside from the effort of aiming for a partial, you relax and let the vibrating horn "fix" your chops -- yes! The horn plays you as much as you play the horn. The rails are there, defined, don't be trying to take the train off of them, fighting the horn and playing flat.

What I like about him is that he knows his stuff and has no issues calling out the issues he sees.

Slotting a note is exactly that, but saying "slotting a note" also has no direction- on trombone, the slot for the 3rd partial is nearly a minor 3rd large. If you wanted to play in the real center of it, you'd play a flat E. 2nd partial would be a flat Ab. Finding that spot near the TOP of the partial, where the horn actually wants to work, is paramount to that best sound- and lots of people (including myself) aimed just slightly low on that and make their lives much more difficult.

I don't understand what this means. The note slot is like 1¢ wide or less, isn't it? Or are you talking about how far you can bend the pitch?

[Burgerbob]

I don't understand what this means. The note slot is like 1¢ wide or less, isn't it? Or are you talking about how far you can bend the pitch?

Yes. If you don't know where that little slot is- that one cent you refer to? It could be anywhere! That's why "center" means very little if you haven't found it yet. Again, I think you've played this way for a long time and you don't need the image, but many others do.

[musicofnote]

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[imsevimse]

Playing on the top of the sound refers to the point of a note where it sounds best, whcih means generally speaking, in the top 1/5th of the note. So the note is not round with the center point being in the center. It's more tear-shaped with the "top of the note" also being the center of tonal quality and intonation. You can always bend a note downwards, but trying to bend one from it's qualitative "center" pop it up to the next partial. So playing at the top of the note means two things which coincide with each other:
1) play the note where it sounds the best
2) this point will be in the top 1/5th of the possible sounds you can get. And if you're not "on the top" of the note, you're also pitch-wise, flat.

The experiment show, that you can bend a note much, much further downwards, than you can bend it from it optimal tonal pont upwards. Think James Stamp bending exercises - they always go from the original note downwards and back up again. And then there's the reason WHY these excercises even exist as they do ... (3 guesses).

Now the paradox comes ... as a trumpet player, you learn to lip notes, and always downwards, because when you try to lip them upwards, they crack to the next partial. You always have more room beneath the "top f the note" and where you want to go. So when you, for example, play a 4th space e with 1/2 and use either a slide or lip it down into tune, rather than try to lip the same open flat e upwards, which more often than not cracks up to the g. I've had several c trumpets - on one I could get away with lipping the e 1/2 down a smidge, on the other I had to pull the first valve slide. On both the open e was just too flat. And THEN you have to relax the lip tension to improve the sound quality of the note that is now NOT optimally hit "at the top".

Side note: this is one reason why vented Baroque trumpets and vented horns play not only better in tune, but also tonally more even than non-vented instruments. Those playing without vent holes are continually messing around trying to strike this balance between where the "top of the note" is and where it sounds best and best in tune. The vent holes do that for them. Personally, I'd much rather hear the music played without the meandering and cracking and bad intonation of the non-vented instruments, ie WITH the vent holes.

Good post! When I talk about "play as flat as I dare" then I use the slide. The position to get a pitch is then "as far out on the slide as I possibly dare"

/Tom

[timothy42b]

Mental images do work for some people better than others. He seems to get results.

I kept wondering about what he seems to be saying about letting the note find the slot (my interpretation of his mental image.) Because, he's a trumpet player, and valves have intrinsic intonation quirks. So how does he play both on pitch and where the note wants to be at the same time? Maybe I missed his explanation.

[walldaja]

Well worth listening to, thanks for sharing.

[harrisonreed]

Mental images do work for some people better than others. He seems to get results.

I kept wondering about what he seems to be saying about letting the note find the slot (my interpretation of his mental image.) Because, he's a trumpet player, and valves have intrinsic intonation quirks. So how does he play both on pitch and where the note wants to be at the same time? Maybe I missed his explanation.

This is to say nothing of the corrections you need to make to play in a chord, or to play a melodic line correctly. Valved instruments have it tough!

I have a friend who is a very good trumpeter and he has a "pitch finder" lever on his main tuning slide on his C trumpet. So he makes the same adjustments that you would on a trombone, using the lever and sometimes the valve slides.

That was that guy's solution, anyways.

[johntarr]

This is a good discussion, thank you all for your comments!

I interpret\understand the “taper” idea to be that if you are truly playing where the note resonates best (in this case, “the top of the note”) then you don’t need to rely on air pressure to start the note. This would mean that you can start a note at any dynamic level and it would be in resonance with the instrument and speak with ease.

[Burgerbob]

I interpret\understand the “taper” idea to be that if you are truly playing where the note resonates best (in this case, “the top of the note”) then you don’t need to rely on air pressure to start the note. This would mean that you can start a note at any dynamic level and it would be in resonance with the instrument and speak with ease.

Yes, that's a good way to put it.

[Wilco]

Thanks for sharing! This works for me

[StevenHolloway]

So playing “on top of the sound” is the opposite approach to the “low and slow” Alessi camp of playing that is taught all over the place. Which way of playing do you all find to be more beneficial?

[Burgerbob]

Listening to alessi play... I'd say he does exactly these things too.

[harrisonreed]

Alessi has one of the brightest, clearest sounds I've ever heard on large tenor. What does the "low and slow" camp mean?

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx0-HBLDhDUs ... ure=shared

[Doug Elliott]

You need some of whichever you're not doing.

[harrisonreed]

You need some of whichever you're not doing.

*crawls back into practice cave*

[StevenHolloway]

Low and slow is a concept that Alessi teaches. Not sure if he started it or got it from somewhere else, but it’s using slower air and thinking on the lower side of the pitch to have the best possible sound.

[StevenHolloway]

[tbdana]

I never heard of "low and slow," but by coincidence I do exactly what Joe does in the video. Especially as the notes go higher I imagine coming down to them rather than reaching up to them, and it makes high notes easier to play, they have better tone, and the pitch doesn't go sharp. Cool, Steven, thanks for sharing the video.

[Burgerbob]

I don't think that's incompatible. It's a concept aiming at a different thing

[StevenHolloway]

Wouldn’t “playing on top of the sound” be playing on the upper part of the partial slot vs “low and slow” which is playing on the lower part of the partial slot? The vid of Joe was just one example of the use of “low and slow.” It’s been used in general for making the best sound and not exclusively for approaching high register. In the Pandolfi video he says the sweet spot is on “top of the sound,”which kind of contradicts “low and slow.”

[Burgerbob]

Again, I don't think it's incompatible- obviously Pandolfi isn't asking people to play as high as they can on the slot no matter what. He's saying the best sound is pretty high in the slot, not above that.

I also think Joe is saying the same thing- when you reach for a high range note, either because it's out of your comfortable range or it just hasn't been made "normal" yet, you're hitting it too low in the slot. If you think "down" you're able to choose where you start the note, and you're playing it just under that very high point in the slot- the top of the sound.

[baileyman]

He could have said, "Play banana" and that would be a cool idea, too.

[harrisonreed]

He could have said, "Play banana" and that would be a cool idea, too.

[Posaunus]

He could have said, "Play banana" and that would be a cool idea, too.

So instead of a cracked note, you might have to deal with a split?

[norbie2018]

Playing examples of taper zone/ playing on top.

[sf105]

I've been trying his suggestion of playing long notes and following the note to where it wants to go and I have to say it seems to work. The sounds opens up at the end of the note as I relax into it, so I try to start from there next time. Early days.