Symington/Holton 181 Fit
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Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Hi All,
Thank you for approving my access to TC.
Newbie 2nd post here.
Years ago I played a Holton TR181/Mount Vernon 1 1/2g.
After a very long break I now have a mid 90's 181 (with a late 70's Bach 50b slide) and have settled on a Symington 1 1/2g, a really nice mouthpiece and the closest one I have found to my old MV.
The only issue is the Symington seems to sit further out than any comparable mouthpiece I've tried.
Has anyone found this a problem and if so, is there a solution?
Thank you for approving my access to TC.
Newbie 2nd post here.
Years ago I played a Holton TR181/Mount Vernon 1 1/2g.
After a very long break I now have a mid 90's 181 (with a late 70's Bach 50b slide) and have settled on a Symington 1 1/2g, a really nice mouthpiece and the closest one I have found to my old MV.
The only issue is the Symington seems to sit further out than any comparable mouthpiece I've tried.
Has anyone found this a problem and if so, is there a solution?
Last edited by phmoto on Tue Nov 21, 2023 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
- spencercarran
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
My Symington mouthpiece has a normal length/taper shank, and by all accounts their manufacturing is consistent enough. The issue is more likely with your slide's mouthpiece receiver - maybe get the leadpipe checked out.
- Doug Elliott
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Holton receivers are usually slightly larger than standard, not smaller. Is it possible your Symington has a Conn shank?
If you like the way it plays... use it.
If you like the way it plays... use it.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Symington shanks changed at one point. I know because I’ve seen 2 that were the exact same piece made at 2 different times. They each had different insertion depths in the same instrument.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
How much of the shank is inside the receiver?
Does it play well? If yes, then stop over thinking.
Does it play well? If yes, then stop over thinking.
Matthew Walker
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
Owner/Craftsman, M&W Custom Trombones, LLC, Jackson, Wisconsin.
Former Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia, 1991-2006
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Thanks for your reply.spencercarran wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:09 am My Symington mouthpiece has a normal length/taper shank, and by all accounts their manufacturing is consistent enough. The issue is more likely with your slide's mouthpiece receiver - maybe get the leadpipe checked out.
I'm not sure what "normal" is atm, I didn't realise there were different tapers till very recently.
Do you know where I might find the relevant specs ?
I have the original Holton slide and the mouthpiece also sits further out in that.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Thanks for your reply.Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:38 am Holton receivers are usually slightly larger than standard, not smaller. Is it possible your Symington has a Conn shank?
If you like the way it plays... use it.
I really like the way it plays
I don't know if it has a Conn shank, I'll look into it.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Thanks for your reply, that's something to investigate
Last edited by phmoto on Wed Nov 22, 2023 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Hi, thanks for your reply.hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:57 pm How much of the shank is inside the receiver?
Does it play well? If yes, then stop over thinking.
It plays great! (The player, not so).
The mouthpiece is around 8mm further out than the standard VB 1 1/2g.
If this is "normal" then great, if however there is a different shank I'm happy to buy that version.
I'm so out of touch with all the developments in the Bass Trom world so any advice gratefully received.
- harrisonreed
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
8mm???
- Doug Elliott
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
If it is a Conn taper you should be able to see the difference compared to a standard shank - it's larger, and straighter, with less amount of taper. So in a standard receiver it would slightly wobble in addition to going in less far. The original Holton is not a "standard receiver" so compare it in a different one.
In terms of diameter, a standard shank is close to 12.6mm at the end. A Conn shank is close to 13mm at the end.
And in either case, the correct insertion distance in a matching receiver is close to 25.4mm or slightly more. It sounds to me like you have a Conn shank mouthpiece, trying to put it in a standard receiver. Holton receivers are typically slightly larger than a standard, but not quite like a Conn receiver.
I believe Bill Symington is a member here... If he sees this maybe he can say if he made any with a Conn shank, and if there would be any markings on it to identify that.
In terms of diameter, a standard shank is close to 12.6mm at the end. A Conn shank is close to 13mm at the end.
And in either case, the correct insertion distance in a matching receiver is close to 25.4mm or slightly more. It sounds to me like you have a Conn shank mouthpiece, trying to put it in a standard receiver. Holton receivers are typically slightly larger than a standard, but not quite like a Conn receiver.
I believe Bill Symington is a member here... If he sees this maybe he can say if he made any with a Conn shank, and if there would be any markings on it to identify that.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Thank you for all that info Doug, I'll take a closer look in the next practice session.
I'm using an adapted Bach slide so will check with the Tech that did the work.
As spencercarran mentioned, the problem could be the receiver I suppose.
I'm using an adapted Bach slide so will check with the Tech that did the work.
As spencercarran mentioned, the problem could be the receiver I suppose.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
The Symington 1.5 is a copy of one of my Mt Vernon 1 1/2G mouthpieces. I forgot to tell Bill that that particular mouthpiece had the Conn type shank. He changed them to Morse after the first few were made. I might be wrong but I think the Conn taper is still a special order option.
- Doug Elliott
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
So it seems likely this is an early one with the Conn taper.
"I know a thing or two because I've seen a thing or two."
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Hi Chris, I bought mine 2nd hand from Ebay (If I remember correctly) so it might be an early/special one.blast wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:08 am The Symington 1.5 is a copy of one of my Mt Vernon 1 1/2G mouthpieces. I forgot to tell Bill that that particular mouthpiece had the Conn type shank. He changed them to Morse after the first few were made. I might be wrong but I think the Conn taper is still a special order option.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Quite possibly.Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 11:26 am So it seems likely this is an early one with the Conn taper.
Time to go shopping I think.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions - I now have a plan.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Here's the point that a few have made. IF you like it and it plays well, for you, then don't worry about the insertion depth. We are all curious and have definitely spent more on mouthpieces than the GNP of some small countries. Mt Vernon Bach pieces are also all COMPLETELY DIFFERENT in every aspect. Use the piece that has the most comfy rim and go from there. My 2 cents.phmoto wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 1:11 amHi, thanks for your reply.hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:57 pm How much of the shank is inside the receiver?
Does it play well? If yes, then stop over thinking.
It plays great! (The player, not so).
The mouthpiece is around 8mm further out than the standard VB 1 1/2g.
If this is "normal" then great, if however there is a different shank I'm happy to buy that version.
I'm so out of touch with all the developments in the Bass Trom world so any advice gratefully received.
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Hello all,
Chris is right - I did make a few Conn shank mouthpieces to start with, but switched to Morse tapers fairly quickly. Nonetheless, my Morse mouthpieces do protrude further than others from the receiver. There was a period of reflection on my part about that, but as no-one reported any ill-effects from that feature, I let it slide.
I have been asked quite frequently to make Conn shanks but life / day job has been interfering unacceptably with mouthpiece endeavours for a couple of years. It's on the list!
Bill
Chris is right - I did make a few Conn shank mouthpieces to start with, but switched to Morse tapers fairly quickly. Nonetheless, my Morse mouthpieces do protrude further than others from the receiver. There was a period of reflection on my part about that, but as no-one reported any ill-effects from that feature, I let it slide.
I have been asked quite frequently to make Conn shanks but life / day job has been interfering unacceptably with mouthpiece endeavours for a couple of years. It's on the list!
Bill
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Re: Symington/Holton 181 Fit
Hi Bill, Thank you for your reply.islander wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:43 am Hello all,
Chris is right - I did make a few Conn shank mouthpieces to start with, but switched to Morse tapers fairly quickly. Nonetheless, my Morse mouthpieces do protrude further than others from the receiver. There was a period of reflection on my part about that, but as no-one reported any ill-effects from that feature, I let it slide.
I have been asked quite frequently to make Conn shanks but life / day job has been interfering unacceptably with mouthpiece endeavours for a couple of years. It's on the list!
Bill