Mouthpiece for hitting high notes

[Bomtrone]

I have a 6.5AL mouthpiece currently for my tenor trombone. Is there a better mouthpiece for hitting high notes with better quality, or should I stick with what I have? I just got accepted into a community concert band with about 80 players, playing 2nd trombone.

[tbonesullivan]

What type of trombone are you playing, and how high are these notes you are trying to play?

[JeffBone44]

When you get your new mouthpiece for hitting high notes, you'll likely complain that you can't play the low notes. Playing 2nd in a community band, I wouldn't worry too much about high range. You'll want to have an all-around good range, and that includes being able to play low notes well.

[hyperbolica]

Within reason, any appropriate mouthpiece will give you decent high range. a 6.5 al is certainly a reasonable mouthpiece on a range of instruments. Of importance are all the rest of the pieces of your setup. Your trombone, condition, alterations, leadpipe, your physical attributes, your development as a trombone player. Of all of those, the last is the most important. An experienced player can play all or most of their range on any trombone. I can play as high on my bass bone as on my small bore, and the mouthpiece doesn't really affect that. The appropriate equipment makes it sound better, but it doesn't make the impossible possible. So the best advice for high notes (or low notes) is practice. If you could buy range or sound or talent, none of those things would be worth anything because everyone would have them.

[BrianJohnston]

I personally find that 6.5 mouthpieces are sort of the no-man's-land of sizes. I've had better luck on large bore going closer to a 4.5, and on a small bore more like a 7 or 11.

[harrisonreed]

I use a 6.5AL cup widened to around a 2G, with a .307 throat to play high notes. And low notes. And every other notes.

On alto, something closer to an 11C widened to a 2G, with a tight throat. It gets me reliably only 1 whole step higher than on large tenor (high G5 vs F5), and at the cost of some sound in the range you need the Bb attachment for.

[Vegasbound]

A lesson with Doug Elliott would be the best use of the dollars you would spend on a mouthpiece, you will then know if it’s you or the mouthpiece, and how to work your chops efficiently

[Kbiggs]

The cryptic answer: It really depends on you, the horn, the mouthpiece, and the music you’re playing. And practice. Lots of practice.

A more detailed answer is to ask yourself questions that require reflection, such as:
How old am I, and how much musical experience do I have?
Can I play the music in front of me? What can I play? What can’t I play?
Do I just need to practice? Am I being held back by my equipment? Am I doing something that I’m not aware of that prevents me from progressing? (For most people, it’s a combination of these things.)
Is my horn a beginner’s horn? Intermediate? Professional? Do I need to or want to invest in better equipment? If so, what’s my budget?
How long have I played my current mouthpiece?
What other horns do I play? Do I use different mouthpieces, or the same one on each horn?
What kind of things do I need to practice to sound better? Increase my range?
Do I like the sound I make? What do other musicians around me say about my sound? Are there things I would change about my sound? If I don’t like my sound, what do I want to sound like?

If you’re having difficulty with specific responses to these and other similar questions, then it’s probably time to ask a teacher for help. Doug Elliott here on TC is an excellent teacher. He can make recommendations for a different mouthpiece, if needed.

[JeffBone44]

I personally find that 6.5 mouthpieces are sort of the no-man's-land of sizes. I've had better luck on large bore going closer to a 4.5, and on a small bore more like a 7 or 11.

I use a Doug Elliott E cup on my medium bore Conn 78H - the E is similar to the 6.5AL cup. But my rim is an XT105, which is like a 2G.

[BrianJohnston]

I use a Doug Elliott E cup on my medium bore Conn 78H - the E is similar to the 6.5AL cup. But my rim is an XT105, which is like a 2G.

Well, that sort of makes the mouthpiece not really be a 6.5

[Matt K]

Generally speaking, very very very generally speaking, smaller in any dimension tends to favor higher frequencies over lower frequencies. But as many are mentioning, the rim size is something that is more akin to shoe sizes. Since it interfaces with your lips, it doesn't necessarily mean that if you get a 12C you'll play any higher on it than a 2G or bigger.

You had mention community concert band. Generally speaking, you aren't necessarily hitting high notes in community bands. It appears that you are looking for a large bore which makes sense. You may wish to investigate medium bores. A larger trombone, although not necessarily a large bore trombone, will probably help you get the sound you want for that type of ensemble, which in turn should help range. Medium bore trombones like the Bach 36, Conn 78, Yamaha 645, Getzen 1036, etc. take small shank pieces but usually have bell sections that are closer to large bores.

If I were in your shoes, and lived anywhere near a place where I could try instruments out, I'd probably go there and try out some first and then pick a mouthpiece out. Mouthpieces are similar and it's nigh impossible to suggest something for any given person because everyone is so different. However, for community band, I would probably try to lock in a rim size you like. Easier said than done if you aren't near a manufacturer or distributor. There's nothing wrong with a 6.5AL but it is on the smaller end of what you'd typically fin for wind ensembles and orchestras. I would try to find something in a 1.01" to 1.05" rim. Too many options to enumerate. But generally speaking, you'll be able to find standard depth cups for anything in that rim size (e.g. Bach 5GS, Wick 4AL, Schilke 51, etc.) for either large bore or medium bore trombones.

[hyperbolica]

Today was a long story, but I wound up playing an impromptu quartet gig, and the last tune we picked was "Happy Days Are Here Again", and out of my bass bone book, I pulled the first part. There was no time to swap. I just had to play it. The lead part was all above the staff, mostly high f-a sort of range. I was playing my Kanstul 1662i with a 1 1/4 size mouthpiece. It didn't sound great, it didn't feel great, it didn't have the kind of sound that a smaller horn would have had, but it worked (depending on how you define "work", I guess). I was a little wiped out at the end, though, as we added a repeat in the middle of the tune to make it a little longer because we play it pretty fast.

People are very different. If you ask any question here, you're going to get 15 different answers. You might wind up more confused than before you asked. There is no replacement for trying a bunch of mouthpieces yourself. Best bet is to first raid your teacher's mouthpiece drawer. Then raid your buddy's mouthpiece drawer. Buying your own drawer full of mouthpieces gets expensive fast, but no one can do that homework for you.

[BrassSection]

FWIW: I play a Bach 12SC in my tenor t-bone, works great from pedals to recently a high C with ease. Used said mouthpiece in several baritones with the same results. Tried it in my euph, great highs, but lows were terrible. Playing 6 1/2 AL in euph and works well for as low and high as I need/want to play. These mouthpiece matings work for me in the horns I have and the playing I do, but so do size 13 6E shoes. What works for me may not for others.

[harrisonreed]

I use a Doug Elliott E cup on my medium bore Conn 78H - the E is similar to the 6.5AL cup. But my rim is an XT105, which is like a 2G.

Well, that sort of makes the mouthpiece not really be a 6.5

He didn't say it was. The cup is kind of like a 6.5, for real

[Garoissimo]

Well, I actually downloaded a PDF copy of the Remington Exercises to send you, and I typed-up a page long lesson plan for developing what you are wanting to do on the horn. Strength. Flexibility. Tone. Range. But, it isn't really any different that what Mr. Elliott would likely do, and he is a professional. Now, while I could have been many times, I never pursued playing full time as a job. Therefore, I am not.

In any case, I spent about an hour at least putting the lesson plan together. Then, I thought better of it... and I saved-it off to a draft in my email, deleted the post without sending it, and watched a couple episodes of 'Suits'.

I also practiced all the stuff I was going to send, for 2 hours before making dinner, earlier. It is how I was shown to train, a long time ago, by someone very special. It is still how I train.

You just need to train on the horn man. And for a few months... like 2-3 months... maybe 6... well, the training never ends. First you do it to get there, then after a time you still do it just to stay at where you are, where it got you. Going to rehearsal is not enough.You need both. Playing in groups, and training (properly) on your own.

As for the mouthpiece, you might try a Bach 5GS. it is a bit larger, though not much, and possibly(?) a bit deeper that the 6-1/2 AL. But, more importantly the cup is shaped in such a way as to feel better, perhaps playing better in the medium and upper registers I think. Well, for me it worked better I think.

Regarding the training: Getting good on the horn is a physical development thing. It is about developing the muscles in your face. It is like like saying you want to 'kick like Bruce Lee', or 'run a 13 second 100m', or 'a 4 minute mile', or 'bench press 300 lbs'. You need to train for it. For a while.

If you do you will gradually get there. But, here is the thing: If you have never done it before, you will need someone to guide you to get there, the first time. To learn how to get there.

Find someone who is a good player. Respected. Successful in the pro realm. Someone who when you hear them play, you know that is what you wish you could be. What you wish you could sound like.

They can show you how to get there, if you are ready to do the work.

This is the way.

Conv_Mando.jpeg

[Doug Elliott]

...Strength. Flexibility. Tone. Range. But, it isn't really any different that what Mr. Elliott would likely do
...
Getting good on the horn is a physical development thing. It is about developing the muscles in your face.

Sometimes. Maybe. But no that's not what I do.

[Garoissimo]

And that is why I did not suggest my training plan

[Garoissimo]

Or if you mean not writing a ridiculously long post in reply, then there is that as well.

[Garoissimo]

Actually, if i might impose on a moment of your time, I am curious: You don't think the Remington routine is a good starting place for young and/or developing players?

[afugate]

...Strength. Flexibility. Tone. Range. But, it isn't really any different that what Mr. Elliott would likely do
...
Getting good on the horn is a physical development thing. It is about developing the muscles in your face.

Sometimes. Maybe. But no that's not what I do.

Actually, if i might impose on a moment of your time, I am curious: You don't think the Remington routine is a good starting place for young and/or developing players?

Catch what Doug said. That's not what he does.

Doug is an expert teacher. But his focus in my lessons has been to teach me the mechanics of how my embouchure is supposed to work. His exercises and instructions for me are specific to deficiencies in my mechanics. I presume he does this with others who study with him, leading to unique instruction.

I will assume that what you put together is probably a well thought out fundamentals routine. That has its place, too. But it's definitely not what Doug would do.

(Apologies to Doug if I've put words in his mouth.)
--Andy

[Doug Elliott]

Agree.
I did the Remington stuff all through high school, while I was studying with John Marcellus and then continuing through college. That and many other things are excellent if you are playing correctly for your own face. Mostly, I was. But I do wish I knew a little of what I know now.

[Garoissimo]

Well, this is good! Because I really wanted to know. Also Andy, thank you your perspective. It makes perfect sense. I do apologize if spoke out of place. I guess it just works so well for me when getting into shape that I assumed Remington would be a good starting place for someone who may need to develop those basic things.

Obviously, personalized and specific instruction about physical issues that are in play in ones technique are vital. I think I honestly forgot about that part of my early training. But it is also an aspect that I kept learning about from every teacher and coach I ever played with, and this isn't something that inspiration, and love of the instrument and art form can touch. I stand educated, humbled, and reminded.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, both of you. Appreciate it.

[afugate]

You're welcome, @Garoissimo.

I spent 40 years reinforcing incorrect practices and creating associated muscle memory. I'm now spending my time replacing incorrect with improvements. I'm one of those who wished I knew then what I know now. I had two classmates in high school who were incredibly successful trombone players. I was always frustrated because I could not do what they could do. I thought I was incapable. I was just doing it incorrectly. Doug showed me how to do it correctly for my face and embouchure mechanics.

One of the standard parts of my practice was a fundamentals routine based on the Remington. But doing it incorrectly was not helpful. Practice makes permanent. It's correct practice that gets one closer to perfect.

BTW, welcome to the chat.

--Andy in OKC

[Cmillar]

You're welcome, @Garoissimo.

I spent 40 years reinforcing incorrect practices and creating associated muscle memory. I'm now spending my time replacing incorrect with improvements. I'm one of those who wished I knew then what I know now. I had two classmates in high school who were incredibly successful trombone players. I was always frustrated because I could not do what they could do. I thought I was incapable. I was just doing it incorrectly. Doug showed me how to do it correctly for my face and embouchure mechanics.

One of the standard parts of my practice was a fundamentals routine based on the Remington. But doing it incorrectly was not helpful. Practice makes permanent. It's correct practice that gets one closer to perfect.

BTW, welcome to the chat.

--Andy in OKC

Yes!....better late than never!

And, for sure, just whipping through a bunch of warmups and basic routines while working on developing physical musical-memory that isn't really working for your own particular embouchure and dental makeup doesn't do anyone any good.

But, unfortunately, that's a huge part of the teaching echelon and different playing legacies that are perpetuated.

Many 'legacies of teaching' deal with 'the music' instead of 'the actual brass mechanics'.
(I'm all for dealing with musicality, and these things have to go hand-in-hand at some point in a brass players career. And of course, the better the brass basics, the better the music.)

But....the 'Music Man' approach of the 'just-think-and-play' method doesn't really help when your embouchure, mouthpiece, or trombone setup is holding you back from the actual 'play' part of that equation.

Like you, if I'd been able to have had some lessons with a Remington-based teacher at an earlier point in my career I would have saved thousands of dollars in mouthpiece experiments, and subsequent horn experiments. I've also benefited from some serious work with Doug on making necessary changes in playing concepts, practice routines, as well as mouthpieces and rims in order to keep playing this hunk of metal seriously...and, most importantly....more easily, which results in more music coming out of the end of the horn.

There are 'fans of Caruso', 'disciples of Remington', 'devotees of Jacobs', and various other 'schools of trombone thought'. (Hmm... some of them didn't even play the trombone!)

How come more serious trumpet players (who are notorious for being even more obsessed and fanatical than trombone players about the real mechanics of brass playing) have been singing the praises of Reinhardt far longer and louder than us trombone players have?

Because they know that he was on to something?

It's high-time for some more Reinhardt recognition in the trombone world....especially since the man was a 'bone player himself!

[Doug Elliott]

Although there are SOME trumpet players who are into Reinhardt's ideas, there are a great many other "methods" that are popular among trumpet players who are always searching for this or that answer to their problems.

Although what I teach is basically Reinhardt ideas, the way I take players through my own diagnostics and corrections has little resemblance to the way he taught.

[Cmillar]

Although there are SOME trumpet players who are into Reinhardt's ideas, there are a great many other "methods" that are popular among trumpet players who are always searching for this or that answer to their problems.

Although what I teach is basically Reinhardt ideas, the way I take players through my own diagnostics and corrections has little resemblance to the way he taught.

I've run into quite a few trumpet players in the area that thank you for keeping their playing careers on track. (Your name comes up quite often during chit-chat!)

Being familiar with the James Stamp trumpet exercises, it's interesting to see a bit of 'overlap' in some of his written exercises with those of Reinhardts' exercises. (just some of them).

They say great minds think alike.

Dave Robbins, (the late great LA transplanted 'bone player/Harry James lead 'bone player who lived in Vancouver) knew Stamp and Dave also went for lessons from another well known LA trumpet teacher whose name escapes me. (it was someone all the studio players visited in the '50's.)

(OK...gotta' go now and buzz the chops a bit and do a few minutes of work as per some 'Elliott'....)

[imsevimse]

I have a 6.5AL mouthpiece currently for my tenor trombone. Is there a better mouthpiece for hitting high notes with better quality, or should I stick with what I have? I just got accepted into a community concert band with about 80 players, playing 2nd trombone.

I can not play much higher on a smaller mouthpiece than I can on a larger one. My usuable highest note is the F5 on either one, but stamina is better on the smaller and a lot of things sound different if I switch. My squeak notes are better on smaller equipment but those notes are not usable anyway. I like different. How it works for me is I can play lower more easy on a wider mouthpiece and lower with a fuller sound on a wider and deeper mouthpiece. I generally get a deeper voice on any deeper mouthpiece and I get a lighter more delicate voice on a more shallow mouthpiece. I try to mach the mouthpiece with horn to make the differences in sound even more clear. Different is what I want. The differences in sound is what I hear behind the bell. The ones in front might hear things differently. The mouthpiece is important, but not very important if you just want to get higher, not in my book. It has more to do with technique, but of course I can play higher on a trumpet mouthpiece compared to a trombone mouthpiece so when differences are huge then it starts to matter a lot.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I've never been able to play higher on a trumpet mouthpiece than on my regular trombone setup. On trombone I can play just as high, easier, and longer by far than I can on trumpet. That might be different if I practiced it....

[harrisonreed]

On the Chansons hybrid cheater mouthpiece for trumpet, with a 6.5 sized rim, I was hitting a high C relatively effortlessly but couldn't go any higher. The intonation was horrendous.

I can't go any higher than the same Bb5 on alto and it is nowhere near a sure deal. G5 is where line is drawn for me.

Interestingly, on a trumpet mouthpiece I can barely produce a sound, so....

[imsevimse]

I've never been able to play higher on a trumpet mouthpiece than on my regular trombone setup. On trombone I can play just as high, easier, and longer by far than I can on trumpet. That might be different if I practiced it....

I'm no good on a trumpet even though I practiced a lot during pandemic. Stamina and register is my problem, but I can play octava Eb , if it is the top note in a (rather) loud cromatic scale, and after some warmup. I have never found the technique to squeek that same note on any trombone mouthpiece I own, that's why I think there is a difference (for me).

/Tom