Some thoughts of giving mouthpiece advice

[imsevimse]

I would say "bigger the better" is a real bad mouthpiece advice to anyone. "Use the mouthpiece that makes it essiest for you to play the register you want to play and also with the sound you are after" is a better advice. It is better because it is a more flexible way to look at it. If you do not know what you are going to play and not know what sound you are after then there is a need of a bacup plan. If it is an advice to a beginner, an intermediate or an advanced player it matters too. Maybe they are the one's asking the question? You could argue that advice to advanced players isn't necessary because they don't need it and all advice should be aimed at beginners and intermediate level but I don't think that is enough. There are different levels also of advanced players, from Linbergh and Alessi down to the local professional freelancer making a living in music. We often assume the best players play the best mouthpieces. If Alessi plays a big mouthpiece then it must be the best. If Alessi says or acts like "the bigger the better" then it is true for him right there. (he doesn't do that really, but he play rather big equipment) The advice to an intermediate player should be to try a couple of mouthpieces and see what happens. First mouthpiece, a Bach 12C is probably a good choice just to get ANY sound for a beginner because that's their basic need at that stage, certainly if they are a child and never have played anything before. Alessi needs his sound in his context and also gets payed to sound like that.
I choose to think of me as an advanced player too, but in the other end with a totally different need, and for me "flexibility" is whats most important. "The bigger the better" is a very bad advice for me but "Use the mouthpiece that makes it essiest for you you to play the register you want to play and also with the sound you are after" is a good advice. "Try everything and use what works" is the advice you give to the best of the best, but they don't need that advice, they just do it..

/Tom

[officermayo]

My grandfather said not to give advice because "Idiots won't listen and the intelligent don't need it".

Then again, he was giving advice.

[harrisonreed]

"You don't have to use a 5G or 1.5G because people say you should. Standard stuff sometimes isn't good for everyone. Be objective"

"Don't just evaluate a mouthpiece at ATW or only at home -- you need to try it everywhere to see where it is useful"

[Matt K]

I've literally never heard anyone say "the bigger the better" as universal advice.

[JohnL]

I've literally never heard anyone say "the bigger the better" as universal advice.

Those exact words? No.
But I've heard a lot of advice that expressed that general sentiment.

[WGWTR180]

I've literally never heard anyone say "the bigger the better" as universal advice.

Those exact words? No.
But I've heard a lot of advice that expressed that general sentiment.

You are correct. These folks who state that certain sizes are "beginner" pieces or "cannot but used in certain applications" have no clue OR very limited experience. Yet we have folks giving mouthpiece on another thread that is so lacking in experience that it's both laughable and disappointing. And then there's the sales pitch advice.

[TromboneWill]

Yeah, I don’t think all the people replying to me realized I was just trying out mouthpieces to see whether I liked them or not. I bought a Yeo with the ability to return it if I didn’t like it, I ended up loving it for its low-mid range, so I think I’ll keep it, it gives me the ability to work on aspects of my playing I’ve been wanting to work on.

[Matt K]

I read through that entire thread and nobody advocated using a large mouthpiece for the sake of having a large mouthpiece. If anything it was the opposite. Did someone majorly edit a post?

[TromboneWill]

I think a lot of people were just posting from personal experience, all of them were pretty much saying that moving up to a bigger mouthpiece was a large leap and that I should just stay worth smaller pieces. It’s weird that people seemed so against the idea of using a bigger mouthpiece like the Yeo when I’ve seen other posts where people are highly recommending it.

It seems like most people in those replies tend to use smaller pieces, and were thus recommending pieces off of their own experience.

[Matt K]

That was my take too.

[BGuttman]

I think this may be a common thought especially from younger players that the 12C/6.5AL/5G etc. that came with the instrument is some kind of "baby piece". Fact is, many very fine players are making a good living on just these size mouthpieces. Some of the (especially Chinese) mouthpieces may be of poor quality -- especially if the box says "Mouth of Trombone" -- but a good quality 12C or 5G can be exactly what works.

Going bigger is sometimes seen by younger players as being more "mature" or it could be some kind of ego boost.

Many of us older players are discovering that the old smaller mouthpieces are actually pretty good for us. Particularly on bass trombone.

By the way, the statement that a 6.5AL was a bass trombone piece was from nearly 100 years ago. Things have changed a lot since then.

[TromboneWill]

Yeah, a 6.5AL isn't unusable on a bass trombone, it just didn't personally fit my full needs at the time. If I had a piece that was more in the staff and above it, I would definitely be using a smaller piece, I have a 5G here that I plan on trying out on the bass.

The bigger mouthpiece lets me focus a lot more on my intonation and tone in the lower registers, which is something I've always wanted to focus more on.

[imsevimse]

I think this may be a common thought especially from younger players that the 12C/6.5AL/5G etc. that came with the instrument is some kind of "baby piece". Fact is, many very fine players are making a good living on just these size mouthpieces. Some of the (especially Chinese) mouthpieces may be of poor quality -- especially if the box says "Mouth of Trombone" -- but a good quality 12C or 5G can be exactly what works.

Going bigger is sometimes seen by younger players as being more "mature" or it could be some kind of ego boost.
.....

^This
I've read many mouthpiece threads here since 2018 and also at the old forum where exactly this, what Bruce [Edit: changed the word "said" to describe] describe is common. It often shines through in discussions where people talk about "doing an upgrade" or "moving up to first chair" or just generally states they want to change mouthpiece. I think the first question would be "Why do you want to change your mouthpiece?". For me I usually do NOT want to switch my general mouthpiece or my first choice mouthpiece (I use several on different horns) until I stumble on something that a friend has. I might be offered to try a mouthpiece and become interested. I would never just ask myself "Maybe I should switch mouthpiece? I wonder what would be THE UPGRADE mouthpiece for me that is just better in general than the one I got".
No it doesn't work like that, not for me. You go to a store and try every NEW mouthpiece they have and you do that constantly for many years, or you ask to try your friends mouthpieces when you meet them and you then may notice it's a very good mouthpiece they have and now you want one too, OR you are a student and your teacher suggest you try another mouthpiece. If you are a real nerd (like me) and have LOTS of money then something else can happen. You then can afford to order mouthpieces just because you are curious. Only the common stuff are in our shops here so NEW stuff is not for us unless we make an order (from US mostly), then pay, and then try. Yes, that is expensive!
This is why I now own over 100 mouthpieces. With all those mouthpieces available I can do blind tests and spend 100 of hours going back an fourth between them. This is of course another thing than finding the next upgrade because I think I have outgrown my mouthpiece. There isn't such thing as to outgrow a mouthpiece. All this only tells us this is very complicated at one level but also very easy at another level. One thing is sure. You are the one who need to know what you want, and also make the decision if a mouthpiece is a keeper or not. Could be any size, and any brand. It depends totally on you, the horn and the context.

/Tom

[Matt K]

If the default for students on the small side, typically you can maintain that side or get larger. You seem to be lamenting the fact that some people, for them, consider pieces that are larger than other pieces in some respect an upgrade. Bruce isn’t suggesting that bigger pieces are universally better whatsoever.

[trombonedemon]

In a perfect world we would all have custom made mouthpieces. I avoid a mouthpiece because of a famous musician is playing it. Those dimensions are his or her fingerprints......etc.

[imsevimse]

You seem to be lamenting the fact that some people, for them, consider pieces that are larger than other pieces in some respect an upgrade.

If they consider it to be an upgrade for them or not is nothing I think of as right or wrong, but my point, or what I'm trying to express is we could look at it differently. Instead of seeing this as steps on a curve where you naturally outgrow mouthpieces or do upgrades from "baby pieces" to more mature equipment. We could just see the mouthpieces as different sizes and shapes that have their place. You could go back to an earlier mouthpiece and that is then not to "downgrade" from the more "mature" mouthpiece you "advanced" to. It's just you who might have changed opinion. What you like may change over time.

Bruce isn’t suggesting that bigger pieces are universally better whatsoever.

No he isn't, and I didn't mean to say he does. I agree completely with him, and that's why I wrote "^This" to point at what he wrote. I thought that is what people do here when they like something , maybe I should have written "Words" or something Bruce is exactly right in what he wrote in his comment, and that is in short what I also wanted to say in my original post IF I had thought of it.

Some learning for me todo here: Maybe how I wrote that: "I've also read many mouthpiece threads here since 2018 and at the old forum, where exactly this, what Bruce said is common" was cofusing. I can se that now. That is what the syntax would be in Swedish. What I meant was that he expressed a common problem in his post. Once again the language barrier leads to mistakes. I think I should have put it like this instead: "What Bruce expressed here in his comment is also what I experience as a common problem when I read threads" or maybe if I removed the comma and add the two missing words "they" and "like", like this: "I've read many mouthpiece threads here since 2018 and also at the old forum, they where exactly like this. What Bruce said is common" Maybe that change things. A comma at wrong place and a couple of missing words makes a difference. After a second thought maybe like this is even better: "I've also read many mouthpiece threads here since 2018 and at the old forum, they where exactly about this.What Bruce describe is common"
Sorry. I apologize Bruce.

One reason to write at this forum for me is to practice my English and I know I do mistakes. I'm learning a lot from these threads both trombone and English. I apologize for anything that come out as harsh and if people are offended by the many language-errors.. I'm here to learn and I hope you all are. People who are here to be a show off annoy me, but that's another thread. If I pick up something here now and then that pushes me in the right direction to become a better player I'm greatful

I think this may be a common thought especially from younger players that the 12C/6.5AL/5G etc. that came with the instrument is some kind of "baby piece".

Words!

Going bigger is sometimes seen by younger players as being more "mature" or it could be some kind of ego boost.

Many of us older players are discovering that the old smaller mouthpieces are actually pretty good for us. Particularly on bass trombone.

Words, again!

I also sense that my leading statement in this thread is picked up as provocative..

In fact this:

"bigger the better"

which more is a sentiment than exact words is to me generally a bad mouthpiece advice IF given. In threads here some people express they feel they need more room for their lips in the mouthpiece. A larger rim would then help, which people also suggest. You could then assume many problems when a mouthpiece doesn't fit should be solved with a bigger mouthpiece. It seems the natural thing to suggest each time anyne feel their lips don't fit because then you have room. What I ask myself is: Are lips generally larger today compared to what they were 100 years ago when people played smaller? What I know is I went a path many years ago where I felt I needed larger and larger mouthpieces because my lips didn't fit (rimsize). What I know now after many years of practice is that something changed over the years because those same mouthpieces today do not feel small anymore and my lips are the same. What did I change? I do think I did something very wrong back then, but I can not tell what it was because it just fixed itself with practice, and to return to a smaller rimsize. Maybe I changed to a more puckered emboushure, and got better control of the aparture and this was what helped me. I don't know this, but when I went back to the smaller mouthpiece my lips did fit. I hadn't the problem anymore. Then I noticed I could play any size of mouthpiece both different rim and depth. My experience tells me it can be other things in need to be fixed. Maybe the current mouthpiece you can't make fit your lips will be the right mouthpiece if you return to it several years later.

/Tom

[GGJazz]

Hi .

I think that what work for us and what we can recommend to others people , are two different things.

I am playing with medium-large bass trbn mpc : 28,96 mm inner rim diameter , 0,310 throat , Schilke S59-sized cup (it is a custom made Wedge mpc) . Before that piece , I was using mpcs like Bach 1G , Laskey 93D , ecc. I always feel comfortable with these sizes ; no problems on ranges , endurance , loud or soft dynamics , ecc .

Anyway , I do NOT recommend to my bass trbn students to play with these pieces ; I suggest to stay "in the middle" , not too small , not too large . Bach 1 1/4G , Schilke 58 , Laskey 85MD , ecc . Then , everyone move where it works better , smaller or larger . If you can use a size (larger or smaller) , depends on your skills , embouchure type , personal attitude , ecc . It is not a "fashion" ..

Sometimes people advocate small mpcs , or large mpcs , because they feel comfortable with them .
Or , people look at a very good player equipment , and want to use it too .
I do not think this is the right way .

At the end , everyone should try pieces and choose what works better (as already told many times by others ) .
And , at the very end , ours playing must be "approved" by leading players /conductors / arrangers / ecc , because are others musicians that choose you (or do not ) to perform with .

Regards
Giancarlo .

[hyperbolica]

Hi .

I think that what work for us and what we can recommend to others people , are two different things.
....Or , people look at a very good player equipment , and want to use it too .
I do not think this is the right way ....
Regards
Giancarlo .

I totally agree. I try to share only my own experiences and label them as such. I don't really expect my experience to work for everybody else, but maybe someone will find it useful.

What works for absolute top pros is very unlikely to work for me, because I don't resemble a top pro in any way. I'd guess that beginner players would find that sort of recommendation even less helpful. I use DE stuff, and if you buy his stuff new, you usually get some sort of consultation with it, which can only be a good thing. Closest thing to a custom expert fit mouthpiece out there.

[Matt K]

This is just semantics. People consider the piece they start out on to be a beginner piece because we do typically have people start on certain sizes. Nobody is suggesting Peter Sullivan needs an upgrade because he plays on a 6.5AL sized piece. But I do think that it’s correct to consider moving larger to be an upgrade if it is, in fact, an upgrade.

Switching from a 6.5AL to a 1.5G if you’re starting bass is wholly, uncontroversially an upgrade in the near universal likelihood it is an improvement. The inverse is also likely true.

I think if anything, there’s a stigma that bigger is never better and one should stick to something on the smaller side of the spectrum and that insufficiencies should be practiced away. I’ve seen much advice along the lines of “play the current piece until the plating falls off and then you can think about another piece” which is really not doing anyone any favors. Sometimes a different size works better for the current playing you’re doing. Sometimes that’s smaller in some respect and sometimes it’s larger. And sometimes it’s smaller in some respects and larger in another.

[ithinknot]

Yeah, most of this discussion is a mess, so just to make it worse...

Setting aside convention and timbre traditions, it seems obvious that at a purely technical level very few adults actually "need" a diameter smaller than 1" (6.5). Even the most committed small bore 11C devotees aren't playing that size on large tenor, and yet the basic range requirements are identical. Maybe I'm wrong, and LT98/G combos have been paying Doug's hangar fees for decades.

[Matt K]

That’s a good point. I studied with Matt Niess, who primarily used the smallest mouthpiece of any professional I am aware of… evidently being slightly smaller in rim size and cup depth than a 15E… but then used a 6.5AL when he won the army brass quintet gig and also used a 6.5AL when he played euphonium.

[Doug Elliott]

Mouthpiece needs in terms of inside diameter depend largely on embouchure type, and somewhat on facial and dental structure. For many players, bigger IS better. And for many, smaller is better. 6-1/2 and 5G sizes are sort of the dividing line, where those sizes are acceptable for both types but not necessarily ideal for either one.

And for bass, 1-1/2G size is that same dividing line.

[ithinknot]

6-1/2 and 5G sizes are sort of the dividing line, where those sizes are acceptable for both types but not necessarily ideal for either one.

Would there be a small but actual market for a really good large shank "12G"? I know convention is hard to overcome, but are there Medium High/IIIBs you've observed who'd probably be happiest there?

I'm intrigued just because I've never seen or heard of experiments in the smaller direction and the 6.5 seems to have remained "acceptable enough" for that crowd, though I suppose there's always been custom activity somewhere.

(On a related note, I have an "extraN104/E/E4"-ish artist signature piece from around 1905 ... I'll show you it sometime if I'm on an appropriate continent.)

[Doug Elliott]

I used to know a guy who played a .95 rim on a large bore horn, and said he really couldn't play anything larger. But in general, I suspect even somebody like that would have some difficulty with trigger range. But... French horn players play that same range on much smaller mouthpieces, just not with the volume that is expected from a trombone.

Interesting about that "1905" piece. I wonder if it would have been considered a tenor piece, bass piece, or maybe G bass or sackbut mouthpiece. Small bore G basses could very well have been played on something like that. Like a French horn, they resonate the bottom range even with a smaller mouthpiece.

[ithinknot]

Interesting about that "1905" piece. I wonder if it would have been considered a tenor piece, bass piece, or maybe G bass or sackbut mouthpiece. Small bore G basses could very well have been played on something like that. Like a French horn, they resonate the bottom range even with a smaller mouthpiece.

Made in SF by John Fritsch, roll stamped "Ingram Model", which suggests some level of production (?), as opposed to a hand stamped one-off. Thomas Ingram appears in Bay Area papers in that decade as featured trombone soloist of the Golden Gate Park Band, playing the usual opera borrowings and variations. Really beautifully made... rope knurled rings, cup is somewhat V-ish, something like a .246 throat IIRC and a wide backbore that leaves the shank end walls very thin (well centered!).

When I first saw it I thought maybe baritone, but who knows. At first glance it seems a bit deep for baby tenor, but I have no idea how things work with a .468 horn - this might let you chuck out a lot more volume without going full laser, compared to something tighter and shallower? Anyway, it plays well... a much more velvety/conical sort of concept than a Bach, but feels better balanced than, say, a 3 with the tiny stock throat. And you'd probably like the rim.

[JohnD]

By the decades playing various brass instruments, mouthpieces accumulated after separating the better from the mediocre ones. So I ended up with a toolbox of about 30 mpcs.
Brass players can make any cup mouthpiece giving a sound. Hm. The mp data can give a rough hint.
But in fact, I have to ask myself: what horn, what sound, what range, what articulation, what genre, what orchestra/band? And so on . Make it fit.
You are a beginner? Fine, just take what is sort of comfortable, you don't want to hurt yourself. Be patient then.

[BrassSection]

As a player of multiple instruments I really haven’t explored a myriad of mouthpieces. Occasionally will buy/borrow one a size or 2 up or down, just to try it out, but return them. Always go back to what I’ve used for years. My trombone mouthpiece has served me well since the 60s in various baritones, euphoniums, and my trombone…don’t think I’ll ever stop using it. Euph I was using 2 mouthpieces, 12SC for high and a 3 for low. Switched to 6 1/2 AL and haven’t gone back to two. Trumpet mp is “adequate”, I wouldn’t consider it ideal but I’ve found nothing I like better. Used it for 20+ years, will probably use it another 20…

Just a note: I’ve never been accused of being normal.