Saint-Saens Symphony 3 on straight horn

[Rmverdi]

Has anyone done it?

Or seen, heard it done?

[BGuttman]

It can be done. It's not too fast for the long shifts. When it was performed before the 1950s it was usually played on a straight horn since that's what most Principals played.

It's a good exercise to learn it without using the trigger.

Still, this is one case where a trigger is an advantage.

[Kbiggs]

They used straight trombones in France when it appeared in the '80s... the 1880's, that is... and they used small-bore horns, not the tenor-bass trombones in use nowadays...

... and I'm pretty sure L'Orchestre Nationale de France with Jean Martinon used a straight, small-bore horn for this recording:

[GabrielRice]

Ray Premru made me practice it on bass trombone, because it was fairly common practice in the UK for the principal to pass it down to the bass trombone player.

That said, I think it's very much worth practicing without the valve, on whatever instrument you choose to play or what you choose to do in performance. It's absolutely doable.

[harrisonreed]

It's definitely worth doing, to ensure everyone knows that you play on a straight horn. The street creds. The head turns. The purity of sound.

[SteveM]

They used straight trombones in France when it appeared in the '80s... the 1880's, that is... and they used small-bore horns, not the tenor-bass trombones in use nowadays...

... and I'm pretty sure L'Orchestre Nationale de France with Jean Martinon used a straight, small-bore horn for this recording:

Minor correction - the orchestra in this recording is the Orchestre Philharmonique de l'ORTF, not L'Orchestre Nationale de France.

[CalgaryTbone]

For a decade or more, my main horn was a Conn 8H (no valve). It was set up as a convertible horn with a valve that could be added, but I loved the sound and response of the horn in its original valveless setup. I played the Saint-Saens without a valve a few times during those years. The trick is to really find the exact feel and optimal speed for moving the slide for each of those long shifts. Too slow and you get a gliss or something like that - too fast and the movement becomes jerky, and there are unwanted bumps of the attack. When it came together, I actually found it became kind of relaxing and enjoyable. I would need to do a lot of work to get back to that after a long time playing on a thayer valve and using it for that solo. My teacher and most of the other Principal players in the big N. American orchestras all played most of their careers on 8H's or 42's. Valves only came out for works that went below low E.

Jim Scott

[Retrobone]

Has anyone done it?

Or seen, heard it done?

I have done it on an 8h several times, and once on a small bore 1927 Courtois. Challenge! But easier in the orchestra than in an audition.

[Retrobone]

For a decade or more, my main horn was a Conn 8H (no valve). It was set up as a convertible horn with a valve that could be added, but I loved the sound and response of the horn in its original valveless setup. I played the Saint-Saens without a valve a few times during those years. The trick is to really find the exact feel and optimal speed for moving the slide for each of those long shifts. Too slow and you get a gliss or something like that - too fast and the movement becomes jerky, and there are unwanted bumps of the attack. When it came together, I actually found it became kind of relaxing and enjoyable. I would need to do a lot of work to get back to that after a long time playing on a thayer valve and using it for that solo. My teacher and most of the other Principal players in the big N. American orchestras all played most of their careers on 8H's or 42's. Valves only came out for works that went below low E.

Jim Scott

I saw Derek James play it on an 8h in the Royal Philharmonic way back in the early 90's. And Mike Mulcahy (8h) as well in Melbourne in the late 70's. He was 19 or 20 then. So I thought I should do the same since the rest of the symphony sounds great on an open trombone anyway.

[Retrobone]

Minor correction - the orchestra in this recording is the Orchestre Philharmonique de l'ORTF, not L'Orchestre Nationale de France.

No you were right the first time. Same orchestra, different names. Orchestre National de l'ORTF is the right one and now known as Orchestre National de France.

[CalgaryTbone]

When I was a student, I remember being in a lesson with Ed Herman (NY Phil. principal at the time) and I played a "C" with the trigger on my 88H. He said something like - "are you playing the trombone, or some kind of valve thing?". There is something to be said about the simplicity of a great straight trombone, not to say that I'm giving up my valve after all these years. Playing stuff like that without a valve makes you really relax or else nothing is going to work - I wonder if that is a part of the resonance of those horns?

Jim Scott

[RustBeltBass]

Ray Premru made me practice it on bass trombone, because it was fairly common practice in the UK for the principal to pass it down to the bass trombone player.

some things start to make sense with all of a sudden !!

[Posaunus]

When I was a student, I remember being in a lesson with Ed Herman (NY Phil. principal at the time) and I played a "C" with the trigger on my 88H. He said something like - "are you playing the trombone, or some kind of valve thing?". There is something to be said about the simplicity of a great straight trombone, not to say that I'm giving up my valve after all these years. Playing stuff like that without a valve makes you really relax or else nothing is going to work - I wonder if that is a part of the resonance of those horns?

Jim Scott

Jim,

I agree with the "simplicity of a great straight trombone" and how pleasing it can be to play. A while ago, I acquired from a TromboneChat member a beautiful Getzen "Canadian Brass" CB20 Bell (receiver for 0.547" bore slide w/ Conn tenon, 8½" bell, silver-plated, no F-attachment). It mates perfectly with a Conn 88H slide, and I do enjoy playing this combination. (My version of an 8H.) Simple, pure, musical (to my ears).

[SteveM]

Minor correction - the orchestra in this recording is the Orchestre Philharmonique de l'ORTF, not L'Orchestre Nationale de France.

No you were right the first time. Same orchestra, different names. Orchestre National de l'ORTF is the right one and now known as Orchestre National de France.

No, actually two different orchestras.

[sungfw]

No you were right the first time. Same orchestra, different names. Orchestre National de l'ORTF is the right one and now known as Orchestre National de France.

No, actually two different orchestras.

Uh ... fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestre_national_de_France

Création
Le 18 janvier 1934, sous l'impulsion du ministre des Postes Jean Mistler, la Radio française créait son premier orchestre symphonique permanent sous le nom d'« Orchestre national de la Radiodiffusion française ». L'orchestre fut ensuite rebaptisé « Orchestre national de l'ORTF » à la création de l'établissement public en 1964 puis « Orchestre national de France » en 1974.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestre National de France:

History

The orchestra has had several names over its history:

1934–1945: Orchestre national (National Orchestra)
1945–1949: Orchestre national de la Radiodiffusion française (French Radio National Orchestra)
1949–1964: Orchestre national de la Radio-télévision française or Orchestre national de la RTF (French Radio and Television National Orchestra)
1964–1974: Orchestre national de l'Office de radiodiffusion-télévision française or Orchestre national de l'ORTF (National Orchestra of the French Radio and Television Office)
1975–present: Orchestre national de France

last.fm

The Orchestre National de France (French National Orchestra) is a symphony orchestra run by Radio France. It has also been known as the Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française (French National Radio Broadcasting Orchestra) and Orchestre National de l'Office de Radiodiffusion Télévision Française (ORTF).

[SteveM]

No, actually two different orchestras.

Uh ... fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestre_national_de_France

Création
Le 18 janvier 1934, sous l'impulsion du ministre des Postes Jean Mistler, la Radio française créait son premier orchestre symphonique permanent sous le nom d'« Orchestre national de la Radiodiffusion française ». L'orchestre fut ensuite rebaptisé « Orchestre national de l'ORTF » à la création de l'établissement public en 1964 puis « Orchestre national de France » en 1974.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestre National de France:

History

The orchestra has had several names over its history:

1934–1945: Orchestre national (National Orchestra)
1945–1949: Orchestre national de la Radiodiffusion française (French Radio National Orchestra)
1949–1964: Orchestre national de la Radio-télévision française or Orchestre national de la RTF (French Radio and Television National Orchestra)
1964–1974: Orchestre national de l'Office de radiodiffusion-télévision française or Orchestre national de l'ORTF (National Orchestra of the French Radio and Television Office)
1975–present: Orchestre national de France

last.fm

The Orchestre National de France (French National Orchestra) is a symphony orchestra run by Radio France. It has also been known as the Orchestre National de la Radiodiffusion Française (French National Radio Broadcasting Orchestra) and Orchestre National de l'Office de Radiodiffusion Télévision Française (ORTF).

Thanks for the clarification. I see that you are correct.

[Matt K]

When I was a student, I remember being in a lesson with Ed Herman (NY Phil. principal at the time) and I played a "C" with the trigger on my 88H. He said something like - "are you playing the trombone, or some kind of valve thing?

This mentality has always baffled me. I guess it’s different when valves were almost all perceived to be stuffy (although… I’m really not sure about that given how well some instruments with rotors play even going back to the 40s). It wasn’t THAT long ago that some orchestras had all valve trombones. It just gives you the option to have multiple ways of articulating. Few instruments can have such tremendous benefit for such a small compromise in design, if you can even call it a compromise.

[CalgaryTbone]

Many of the Principal players (and some 2nd players) in the major North American orchestras in the 60's, 70's and into the early 80's were playing straight .547 horns as their primary instrument. Herman, Dodson, Freidman, Sauer, Sweeney, Taylor, and and others whose names I can't recall now. Wick and Bright in London as well. Those horns do have a special resonance, but you are right that better valves and (in my opinion) changes in what is standard repertoire has changed expectations. Even Joe Alessi used a straight 42 a lot in his early days with New York, and for a time, Edwards was making a straight version of the 396 that he was championing. Different times.

Jim Scott

[Matt K]

I’d challenge the idea that there is a special resonance to a straight horn. I think they are lighter and if you aren’t used to using the valve or have a preconceived notion about deleterious implications to your sound, there was certainly less resistance to getting a straight horn vs a valved horn for a long, long time. (Price, common practice, etc). But it’s impossible to prove that as a blind test isn’t possible since it’s obvious when a horn has a valve on it compared to when it doesn’t.

I’m not downplaying the weight issue either. If you aren’t using the valve, it’s literally deadweight.

[Kbiggs]

I’d challenge the idea that there is a special resonance to a straight horn. I think they are lighter and if you aren’t used to using the valve or have a preconceived notion about deleterious implications to your sound, there was certainly less resistance to getting a straight horn vs a valved horn for a long, long time. (Price, common practice, etc). But it’s impossible to prove that as a blind test isn’t possible since it’s obvious when a horn has a valve on it compared to when it doesn’t.

I’m not downplaying the weight issue either. If you aren’t using the valve, it’s literally deadweight.

My 2 cents: a straight horn responds differently than a horn with a valve. It feels different, but it might not sound the same. The “resistance” is not due to a constriction in airflow—after all, we’re talking about vibrating a standing wave inside the horn, not literally pushing air through the horn (although some air does exit the bell). The “resistance” is almost certainly a function of the additional weight of the valve and tubing, and the location of the valve along the various nodes in the horn (subject to whichever partial you’re playing on).

Yes, it feels different and responds differently because it is different. After all, everything makes a difference in how it feels and responds. Does it make a difference to the sound and the audience? Sound—maybe. Audience—Not your average audience member, but I’m sure the trombone nerd nit-pickers in attendance can hear the difference!

[ithinknot]

It's easy to over- and under-think the difference. The classic straight .547 candidates often have neckpipes that are categorically different to their valve sibling, sometimes choking down to .525ish after the receiver. It's rarely a direct comparison between a valve and the equivalent length and bore of straight tubing.

When I was a student, I remember being in a lesson with Ed Herman (NY Phil. principal at the time) and I played a "C" with the trigger on my 88H. He said something like - "are you playing the trombone, or some kind of valve thing?

This mentality has always baffled me.

There's a pedagogical point in encouraging students not to rely exclusively on the trigger to the extent that the current discussion might occur... apparently 1st to 5th or 6th in slow quarter notes might now seem like a wonder of the ancient world

[Matt K]

I don't disagree that slide technique is important, just the dismissal of the use of the valve because we have a slide. We're playing some kind of slide AND valve thing. It's great! I suppose 60 years ago the options more limited, and some designs had chokepoints etc, but I've played plenty of instances of instruments w/ F attachment that play great. For example, I've really yet to play a King that had a stuffy valve at all, even down to their really small bores like the long defunct 605F, and jazz guys are sometimes the most vehement about playing a straight horn only.

[BGuttman]

We've strayed pretty far from the original question.

I look at the F valve as being similar to the Bb valve on a French Horn. Sure, you can play the rep without it, but it makes things a lot easier in certain ranges.

I like the idea of passing the solo to the low trombone since it's right in the 3rd trombonist's wheelhouse.

[ithinknot]

We're playing some kind of slide AND valve thing. It's great!

Sure, I like my flat-G 2nd valve as much as anyone, I'm just saying that the lesson quote might be wholly appropriate for a particular student at a particular point - or indeed that the implication might also be that the sound doesn't match (i.e. 'I don't want to hear that it's the valve'...)

It's a very 'excerpt world' concern - bArToK gLiSs, anyone? - it was written for a straight horn, people coped for the best part of a century, and, yes, it's easier with a valve.

[Matt K]

Maybe, without that context it is speculation, but it would make more sense to me as a pedagogue to simply say that the actual deficiency in technique rather than implying it.

[BGuttman]

The Bartok Gliss was written for an instrument in F with no valve. It's really easy on a straight F trombone, although you would need a handle to manipulate the slide.

For what it's worth, the Saint-Saens solo is a bit cumbersome on a straight F or G instrument, and unplayable on a straight Eb alto.