Trouble with both Small and Big MP

[Fgal409]

Hi Everyone, and thank you if you are reading this.
Today i wanted to share a problem i ve been having for the past 2 years and still i wasnt able to find a solution.
My story is the following: When i started playing trombone a few years ago i really was not that into mouthpieces. I just accepted what i had and played. As time went, my playing got better (that including range, flexibility etc.) But in recent times i ve been hitting a wall that i cant break with just practice and dedication.
I started on a cheap 12c mouthpiece with my first also cheap tenor trombone (.525 i think...) , later on as i got better, that mouthpiece started feeling small for me (air was cut in between notes, low range was very bad) by that time i bought my current trombone a Yamaha 354 and i ve started using the mouthpiece that came with the bone, a Yamaha 48, that mouthpiece felt good for some time, because my lips felt more "free" but after a few months of playing on that, my sound did not convinced me, the sound was like i was playing underwater for moments, and anything above High F was horrible.
After that, i bought a Bach 7C a much smaller and shallower mouthpiece which i was recomendend. High Range Shortly got better, but the middle register got worse, it sounded thin and my aiming for notes also got worse. Not to mention that
Anything under a low c was even pointless of trying to play it.
Tired of that situation i got myself another mouthpiece, this time a Bach 5GS, my sound, low and middle register got better, but once again i had a lot of problems with high notes.
So a few months ago (till this day) i turned back to the Yamaha 48 which is the most consistent mouthpiece i have. And although i got better at playing, i m still having the same issues than before. My sound is not as bad as before, but it still feels "chocked" to me. And although now i can play above high G, however sound on high register is not good, after a few minutes of playing i simply cant play high register for that day.
So thats the thing, i find myslef going back and forth, so in summary: If i play big mouthpieces my high register is really difficult to play (even only to play above high eb), sound feels chocked and my lips get tired sooner. But if i play on a small mouthpiece my chops feel trapped, my sound just cuts in between notes, and i cant aim for notes well. Also mention that low regsiter becomes terrible.
Again i still kind of new to this world, and i do not know much about motuthpieces, so if anyone can help me i would be vert greatful.

[BGuttman]

Your problem sounds familiar. I went bigger and bigger until I found the rim size that works for me. In my case it's around a Bach 4 rim. Of course high notes are harder on a larger mouthpiece and I recommend working on rangebuilding exercises like the Remington "Security in the Upper Register" (this exercise helped me expand my range to around F 6 lines above the bass staff (sometimes called F5) which is about as high as you need to go. It takes a while for the exercise to do its job, so be patient. I'd bet most of your music doesn't exceed Bb 4 lines above the bass staff (sometimes called Bb 4) and as you add notes to your range with the exercise your music may require them.

We have a couple of embouchure experts here: Doug Elliott and Dave Wilken. Both of them do Skype lessons and will diagnose your playing and suggest a solid course of action. If you can afford it, a lesson may be a better course of action than a new mouthpiece for now.

Good luck. A solution is available.

[ericrich]

Hi Fgal409,

Bruce makes some great points. Your Yamaha 48 is a very good “all around” choice, so I suggest you stay with that for the moment. One thing I might add is to consider the idea of “tongue arch”, i.e. as you ascend above the staff in the area of Eb4: Eb above middle C), start thinking about the vowel sound “EE”. I’ve seen this simple idea have dramatic results with high register challenges.

Press on!
Eric

[Vegasbound]

Have a lesson with Doug Elliott

[Doug Elliott]

I would not characterize any of those mouthpieces as "big."

I do think you need a lesson and once you are playing correctly for your particular embouchure you'll be in a better position to evaluate mouthpiece choices. When you're not playing efficiently it's easy to be distracted by typical mouthpiece advice that's often very wrong.

[Danitrb]

This story sounds familiar, basically it is how players practice and improving their skills. Yamaha 48 and Bach 5GS are not so large and also they are pretty similar. Follow good teacher is smart choice.

[Fgal409]

Thank You For all your replies, ill take into account the Remimgton's Upper Register excercises and give them a try.
When i was reffering about "big" mouthpieces i refer to the 5GS and the Yamaha 48, because from what i was told, and what i ve read on forums, those are considered big MP for a 500. Bore. But again im not an expert, and i could be wrong about that.
Thing is that with those Mouthpieces i feel the high range unaccecible, and that i have to make a big effort pushing air in order to play a high G for example. the same goes for the 7C and the 12C for the low range, although with those smaller MP i feel somehow that my sound is cut between notes (which is very annoying), but this could be an issue not releated to the mouthpiece. I always tended to put the blame on the MP (which i know is not correct) because problems with both small and big, are different, some on the high register some on low, some have more comfortable rim than others, some feel tight while others feel like i need to push a lot of air to play.
Anyway, thank you a lot for all your replys, and i will play and try those high register excercises with the Yamaha 48 and see how it goes. (Although when i listen to myself on recordings, i feel something is not right with the sound).
I ll also consider taking a lesson and evaluate what is my problem exactly.
If anyone want to add something, go ahead, anything can help!

[Doug Elliott]

You need a lesson more than anything.

[Vegasbound]

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

[OompaLoompia]

Thank You For all your replies, ill take into account the Remimgton's Upper Register excercises and give them a try.
When i was reffering about "big" mouthpieces i refer to the 5GS and the Yamaha 48, because from what i was told, and what i ve read on forums, those are considered big MP for a 500. Bore. But again im not an expert, and i could be wrong about that.
Thing is that with those Mouthpieces i feel the high range unaccecible, and that i have to make a big effort pushing air in order to play a high G for example. the same goes for the 7C and the 12C for the low range, although with those smaller MP i feel somehow that my sound is cut between notes (which is very annoying), but this could be an issue not releated to the mouthpiece. I always tended to put the blame on the MP (which i know is not correct) because problems with both small and big, are different, some on the high register some on low, some have more comfortable rim than others, some feel tight while others feel like i need to push a lot of air to play.
Anyway, thank you a lot for all your replys, and i will play and try those high register excercises with the Yamaha 48 and see how it goes. (Although when i listen to myself on recordings, i feel something is not right with the sound).
I ll also consider taking a lesson and evaluate what is my problem exactly.
If anyone want to add something, go ahead, anything can help!

There’s pretty much two ways to go about this, and one way will save way more money, time, and anguish in fixing your problem.

1) You could spend a ton of time and money and try out a bunch of different mouthpieces and warm ups with little to no direction and attempt solutions based on how it “feels” when by your own admission, you are no expert. You may or may not fix some things but you’re more than likely to build bad habits that will at best, limit your potential and at worst, cause you injury.

2) You could take a lesson with an embouchure expert in this thread, and in a brief amount of time, you would receive an expert diagnosis and methodical instruction that would not only point you directly at the solution but also give you the tools you need to get to that solution as efficiently as possible.

I think you’ll be happier and better in the long run if you go with option #2

[harrisonreed]

I play a 2G width rim in the big band, on small bore, and it works great. The rim is just there to support your lips and the muscles in your face. It has a negligible impact compared with how the rest of the mouthpiece interacts with the air you're putting into the horn.

Cup shape and volume, throat and backbore specs, and the overall length of the mouthpiece and how far into the leadpipe it goes -- those things have a very large impact on how a mouthpiece plays with a horn. The rim on the other hand, independent of those things above, has a huge impact on your embouchure's ability to move, and it also acts as a support. Muscles get tired. A mouthpiece rim does not. If it lets you move the way you need to without draining your muscles, it's doing its job.

You need lessons from a good teacher so that you can learn how your embouchure is supposed to move, on standard equipment. THEN you can decide together on equipment that works with what you've learned.

[blap73]

I would say most likely you haven't learned all of the tricks (technique) required to play in the different ranges. Read up on the Reinhardt Pivot system, for example at https://www.trombone.org/articles/view.php?id=240
where you will discover there is not a "one size (or technique) fits all". The technique differs depending on your facial structure, etc. Then, next, the most valuable asset is to have some one who knows this stuff, watch you and determine which Type you are, and hence what your technique should be for successfully going up and down in range. Doug ^^^ is the guy. He does lessons over Zoom, etc. He has helped me. I came back after decades of not playing, and I have more range now than I ever had as a kid. Like you I've been horsing around with similar mouthpieces lately, but that was AFTER getting some technique foundation from Doug. I'm currently playing the Yamaha 48 on a .490" bore tenor, and I can typically hit the high C (octave above middle C). Not reliably yet, but I can play the note. And my low notes are all there too. Not that any of this fits you. Just because I can do it on the 48 doesn't mean that's the right MP for you.

[JeffBone44]

Get a lesson with Doug.

[Bach5G]

I’ll almost mention David Wilk (have I got the name right?) who also is knowledgeable in this area and who gives lessons.

[imsevimse]

Familiar issue. Remember I once too started on a Bach 12C. Had problems with both sound and register. Went to 7C, 4C and 6 1/2 AL. Every change felt good, especially the change to 4C and 6 1/2 AL because I then felt I got more room for my lips. Later I had a Remington on my Conn 88H but that didn't work either. My teacher sold me a Wick 6BL. It did not solve anything. When I finished my college studies I went back to a Benge 12C and started working. I solved my playing. Now I can play any rim, any mouthpiece, any deph, any horn, at least any tools I've tried. The problem in my case was not the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece is important but not THAT important, at least not critical in my case. Get lessons.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

What you can do when you already have the skills is not very related to how you get to that point. You explain that very clearly, but your conclusion is wrong. Yes, it WAS the mouthpiece

[imsevimse]

What you can do when you already have the skills is not very related to how you get to that point. You explain that very clearly, but your conclusion is wrong. Yes, it WAS the mouthpiece

I'm not sure it ever was the mouthpiece in my case, but since it was finally solved on that smaller mouthpiece, you could argue that this mouthpiece was the real savior. What I think solved my emboushure problems was a better approach to what I was doing and the fact I matured in a musical sense.

Here is my story:
viewtopic.php?t=30768

/Tom