Duo Gravis re lacquer

[Ken]

I have a Duo Gravis that I bough new in the mid '70's but not played since the mid 80's. I have sent it in for a service but considering having it re lacquered. The lacquer is still fairly even across the instrument but it looks very untidy.

My concern, and the question is, would I spoil the instrument by getting it re lacquered ?

For context, I will never sell the instrument and I am not worried about the cost. I recently started playing with a big band and I thought I would dust off the King.

[2bobone]

I also have a King Duo Gravis from the 70's and also have ZERO plans to sell it. It also had small areas where the lacquer was compromised, even on the bell throat where I would grasp to assemble and disassemble it. I tried using a very tiny bit of "Wenol" [a close cousin to Simichromi] to remove oxidation on those parts of the bell. I did that several years ago and it still looks like I had just done it yesterday. I wouldn't have your horn re-lacquered because they would almost certainly strip the old lacquer and then buff before the re-lacquer, removing silver [mine is SS] in the process as well as affecting the integrity of the engraving. I did the same to my brass King 8B with the exact same result. In my experience, Wenol seems to leave a protective coating that lasts quite a long time.

[Ken]

Thank you for the feedback. I was concerned about losing the engraving. The trombone is currently with Rath for the service, they were encouraging me not to have it re lacquered but I do like things pristine.

[tbonesullivan]

Do you have any pictures of the horn? Honestly I mostly care about the contact points where I hold it, as I hate the smell of oxidized brass and nickel silver, and it sticks to my hands and I just don't like it.

[Briande]

So I did a self strip of the bell area of my Duo Gravis (early 1970s) a couple months ago. The lacquer was really bad since some major dents had to be removed when I bought it used a couple year ago. I can’t notice a change in the sound at all. However it does look a bit strange without the old “orange” king lacquer on the bell. It’s bright yellow now! I’m thinking about added a brushed finish too it next.

[boneagain]

Thank you for the feedback. I was concerned about losing the engraving. The trombone is currently with Rath for the service, they were encouraging me not to have it re lacquered but I do like things pristine.

Pristine comes in two flavors for instruments: sound and looks.
I'm with Mr. Kraft on this one: polish the parts that offend.

One exception: if the neck pipe has lost lacquer, THAT is worth having recoated. Wrapping stuff around it can actually be WORSE than nothing at all.

That area gets lots of skin contact. Skin contact can add a lot of acids and such OVER TIME.

The neck pipe is pretty carefully formed. IMHO it is among the larger factors in the "Duo Gravis Sound." You would have a tough time getting an exact replacement. Then "pristine sound" could go out the window.

Oh, why can wrapping be worse than nothing? If the wrap is not COMPLETELY impervious to sweat it can HOLD the sweat against the metal, accelerating the problem. Similarly, patchy lacquer in that area can lead to pits that extend beyond the missing lacquer.

I removed ALL the lacquer from my Silver Sonic bell. Liked the sound a lot. Learned be gentle cleaning the gold wash bell.

[greenbean]

I would *never* re-lacquer a DG bell. Other areas on the horn? If you must. I generally only care about the touch points.

[Macbone1]

Do you have any pictures of the horn? Honestly I mostly care about the contact points where I hold it, as I hate the smell of oxidized brass and nickel silver, and it sticks to my hands and I just don't like it.

Me neither! And it's completely avoidable. Leather grip guards are WAY underused around the world! Neck pipe guards too (leather is best unless it stains your shirt collar - some do). How many hundreds of trombones are sold/traded every day with excellent plating or lacquer pretty much everywhere EXCEPT the contact points? I don't buy any arguments about how guards can "alter" the resonance or add weight to the slide. Use 'em!

[greenbean]

Well, I have bought *many* older horns that have clearly had the touch points re-lacquered. Just sayin'.

[Ken]

Thanks for the feedback.

I don't have photographs, when I get it back I will upload some.

I am going to get it serviced and see how I feel about it then. The consensus seem to be not to have it lacquered. I went through this dilemma with an old car recently, ended up having it painted but now I am worried about getting it scratched, I enjoyed the car more when it was tatty.

An interesting debate about leather protectors as my sweet does seem to have a bad effect on lacquer. I have a new Rath on order, where can I buy the leather protectors ?

Has anybody tried helicopter tape on the hand grips. Helicopter tape is a thin plastic often used on the front of cars to protect against stone chips, properly applied it could be a good solution unless the great and good tell me tales of woe.

[hornbuilder]

If a re lacquer is done properly, you won't notice a difference in how the horn plays, and the engraving will not be washed out.

This is not something that can be undertaken by your average repair shop.

[OneTon]

HN White has a site with multiple restored King trombones. You can look at the pictures and see horns that have deep engraving and horns with washed out engraving. The oxidation on brass only goes into base metal until it stops and then goes no deeper, other than contact points. It is not deep other than contact points. I usually have a horn chemical cleaned when I first get it, and then just keep it clean with Dawn dish soap. I have had my Duo-Gravis for 20 years. The lacquer is compromised and it will stay that way as long as I have it. I would have contact points touched up if they bothered me. My hands are not stained and I do not smell anything. I have a good nose. I wish one of the trumpet players behind me would clean his trumpet.

HN White is most probably going after a re-lacquer that could pass inspection with a jeweler’s loupe. If the repair shop is told that a lacquer job that looks good from 2m is sufficient, the risk goes down. Mother Nature always wins: I’ll leave my Duo and 2B au naturel.

[DougHulme]

I had one of my D.G's re-lacquered (Adrian Jarvis, then at Rosehill Instruments) the engraving is still perfect and I couldnt tell any difference in the way it played.

There is currently a problem in the UK with getting an instrument re-lacqured... theres no one left to do the actual lacquering. You can have the finest tech in the world prepare the instrument but if you dont have someone to do the lacquring its a problem. Currently the only way I know of is to send it to Germany where they have an excellent service but since Brexit it has become extremely expensive. The only person left in the UK that I know of that can lacquer an instrument is Mick Rath - his work is immaculate but he doesent like taking work prepared by other techs as he finds he wants to do more work on the horn before lacquring and other techs also want it done (of course) at a trade price and the materials are so expensive its not worth doing on that basis. he will do the whole job though from start to finish and make a truly exceptional job.

If anyone knows of any other UK lacquring service I'd be delighted to learn of it (and a few excellent but frustrated techs as well!)... Doug

[Ken]

I had my Duo Gravis serviced at Rath. We discussed having it lacquered and I decided just to have it serviced and think about the lacquer. It is not that bad, it is showing its age. I know these instruments are very popular but I much prefer the Rath R9 and my Edwards. I am keeping the Duo Gravis purely for the sentimental reason that I have had it for about 45 years. My current thinking is not to have it re-lacquered.

Tim at Rath did make the point that there are very few people in the UK lacquering instruments.

[Ken]

It is actually that that bad:



https://www.dropbox.com/s/srlntzoott6ox ... .HEIC?dl=0

[DougHulme]

Youre right, in fact I'd say that looks pretty good in the photo. I wouldnt get it re-lacqured if it were me. Mine really did need it... Doug