fatigue during practice....stop and rest? Or keep playing...for a bit longer

[Tomingoode]

I know this might sound like a stupid question, but as someone who is a returning player after a long layoff I am trying to get back to a level I never was before. In some ways, am accomplishing that I think. I have managed to bust thru and expand my upper range beyond anything I could do previously. And I am grateful for the improvement, a good bit of the credit goes to Doug for his help. Thank you Doug! So follow me, I am practicing and playing things that stretch my endurance in the upper registers and when I get to a place where I start seeing/feeling a bit of fatigue and can't reach or hold those upper notes anymore, is that the time to rest the chops? Or should I keep playing but work on something that exercises the lower registers. I want to practice smarter and more effectively. If I should stop when I notice the beginning of fatigue, that's fine...or changing up the routine and doing something that keeps the chops active and working but not with so much tension.
If we were talking about running, I could tell you exactly what to do...but this aint running.

[Burgerbob]

I find it best to not really rely on the body telling me when to take a break, but to literally just set alarms. Perhaps you practice 10 minutes on, 5 minutes off for a couple hours, or 45 minutes on, 15 minutes off.

[Bach5G]

Another opinion:




For myself, I’m finding I have less endurance and less ability to recover. I feel like I have to be careful not to overdo it. So, 15-20 minute intervals spaced out over the day. One per topic: warmup, tonguing, range, studies, repertoire etc.

If I feel my chops are fatigued I’ve probably overdone it.

[Doug Elliott]

If we were talking about running, I could tell you exactly what to do...but this aint running.

Maybe not running, but similar enough that at least most of the same principles apply.
Don't push yourself past what you can do with good form... stop BEFORE that happens.

Sometimes it's OK to switch to something less demanding and continue a bit. Never overdo it.
In general, stop BEFORE you notice the beginning of fatigue.

There are ways to safely work on endurance but I don't want to get into that here right now.

[Tomingoode]

Thanks Doug, appreciate the answer. We might need to do another lesson soon... after the dust settles from christmas and new years.

[Tomingoode]

And to the others who answered, I appreciate all the feedback, perhaps I am asking more of my 70 year old body than is reasonable. I am a type A personality so I tend to push until there is no push left to give...and then push some more. Not always productive or helpful when we are talking about how we use our bodies. Nonetheless, the tendency remains to do that and self monitoring is very much necessary to avoid overdoing it. I hope everyone is having a wonderful Christmas holiday and spending with people you love and cherish.

[VJOFan]

A new runner can't create the strength and endurance for a marathon by lacing up and running 26 miles: a developing trombonist can't get high range endurance by playing Bolero 20 times in a row without a break.

Patient, regular work pays off in the end.

[SimmonsTrombone]

Doing lifting with free weights, a rank beginner begins with the bar only, even if it’s easy, and adds only about 5 pounds a week. Make slow and steady progress. Bass trombonist Jeff Reynolds recommends 25-minute practice session and doing 5-6 a day.

[imsevimse]

It's very rare that I feel fatigued nowdays. I can play for hours but of course if I have to play in the upper register around high g, a, b, c, d and occasional higher notes I will get tired. I might not stand more than 5 minutes of constant playing before I know I have to take a break. Even short breaks helps and then endurance comes back. If I would do such heavy work let's say ten times in a row with a short break in between then I would probably feel I've done a workout. If I would do ten times without any pause from the mouthpiece I would probably be done for that day and maybe the next too. The micro pauses are real important as soon as there is a chance be sure to remove the pressure and relax. I think that way of playing builds. Sometimes I quit a note a little ro early just to gain some strength if I feel I'm getting near the point where it is damaging. Sometimes I need to do that even in concert situations. You do what you have to do. If the gig is a dance gig "So what?" Noone will notice if it's done right. Rather that then hitting the wall.

/Tom

[JeffBone44]

Glad I found this thread. I feel like I'm in the same boat. I probably practiced three hours total yesterday - did half an hour sessions, six of them through the course of the day. At the end of the final session I decided to stop. Started to have trouble articulating high G's and Ab's cleanly in a piece I was working on. I stopped and rested for a couple of minutes, and then the articulations were coming out cleanly again, but after another minute I was flubbing those notes again. I figured that forcing myself to keep playing at that would actually hurt instead of help, so I ended the day with some pedal tones to cool down.

[johntarr]

If we were talking about running, I could tell you exactly what to do...but this aint running.

Maybe not running, but similar enough that at least most of the same principles apply.
Don't push yourself past what you can do with good form... stop BEFORE that happens.

Sometimes it's OK to switch to something less demanding and continue a bit. Never overdo it.
In general, stop BEFORE you notice the beginning of fatigue.

There are ways to safely work on endurance but I don't want to get into that here right now.

How one answers this question depends in part on how one thinks about playing. In the strength and conditioning world, there are certainly benefits to working to fatigue. However some weightlifting coaches will say not to become so fatigued that you lose your form, as Doug said.

While there is a muscular endurance factor in learning to play a brass instrument, it’s much more about skill acquisition and fatigue can be counterproductive. It might be useful to consider what kind of skills you want to build with your practice. If you (and I’ve stupidly done this) think you need to tire the facial muscles in order to get stronger then you are practicing getting tired. If you practice ease and sound quality, you develop those. I think it can be useful to learn how to manage fatigue because if you’re playing a gig… So when you start noticing the signs of fatigue, you could stop and rest, change what you’re doing and/or find a way to play more efficiently. It will most likely be a combination of those.

I’d be very interested to hear Doug’s thoughts on safely increasing endurance.

Happy New Year to all,

John

[henri77]

I normally find I'll play better at the start of a session than towards the end, although it's not always the case.

I also think, the more bored of the routines you do, the less you're really trying. You think you're trying, but you're more just hoping all the colours go in so you can say you did it. If you were already on a break of say 40 odd, and you came to the colours, then you'd be in a proper zone of concentration and give it 100%.

[Tomingoode]

I never figured this thread would generate this much activity, and so many different ways of looking at the same horse. For me, my own practice is 75% musical material that I either feel the need to learn because of some musical aspect that the exercise of learning it will focus on, or because I like the piece of music. I guess that's not a very scientific way to approach it. But the way I figure it, the whole point of holding the horn and blowing thru it is to make music, so why not focus on that. Each piece of music will teach some technical aspect of playing in its own way. And its a lot more fun than doing exercises for the sake of exercises.
One example of this would be playing in less 'popular' keys. As a brass player who basically just took what was given to learn thru high school and early college, most of what I was exposed to was music written in flats, because that's 'easier' to wrap your head around as a beginning player. As a result I had never played much written in sharps until very recently. Nor had I learned to read treble clef. Because trombone music at the level I was playing way back when was always written in bass clef. So this past year I taught myself to read treble clef and am learning to read the 'sharps' keys so that they are muscle memory like playing in flats is. Its work to do that at age 70 but rewarding and opens up a world of music to play that I would otherwise never get to play. Its also work to spend time working on those things where you know you are weak. But I try to do that regularly. Not necessarily every day but several times a week. pick up a new piece of music and try to sight read it. transpose it to another key and sight read that.
Sometimes I do exercises but usually for a very short time. They get boring so quickly and become like exercise for the sake of exercise. I am in this to enjoy it and have fun, and the exercises aren't but I understand a need to incorporate them in some quantity into the routine, I just try to keep them to a minimum.
My practice time varies so much I can't say there is a routine. I just know when my feet hit the floor in the morning at some point during the day I will play for a while...some days I get 3 or 4 hours of playing time with rests interjected and other days it may only be a half hour. Usually by the end of the day I know its time to quit.

As far as warmups go, I am almost never good until I have played for 30 minutes or so...takes a long time to warm up. And that is best done in short 5 minute sessions with short breaks. Usually by then if I am going to sound good that day, I will by then. Sounding consistently good is the target, the goal for me. I understand that doesn't happen overnight. But I am seeing improvement.

[dukesboneman]

[Tomingoode]

Thats a really active routine...I don't know that I could manage that level of regimentation or intensity of activity. Wow.

[GGJazz]

Hello all.
Hello Tomingoode .

About the OP ( fatigue during practice...) , I think the best advice was given by Doug Elliott , that above wrote "In general , stop BEFORE you notice the beginning of fatigue " .
So , in my opinion , one should stop playing when he would still be able to continue , if he wanted to
(of course , this do not means to stop just after few minutes of practice ...) .

About the other things you wrote three post above , I think that 30 minutes to be fully warmed-up is a too long amount of time . To me , would be better to try to be fully warmed -up in not more than 10 minutes ; and once you made this , you should be able to rest for 3 hours and then keep the horn , play for 1or 2 minutes , and be ready for whatever ( practice routine , concert , recording session , ecc ) .

About the technics exercises , I think that the key is do not think they are something completly different compared to a piece of music . We have to play everything in a musical way , also a scale or a flexibility exercises , in the same way we play a Bordogni ' vocalize . Think about the first three bars of the Mozart ' Tuba Mirum excerpt : it is just a based on major triad melody , with half and quarter notes . Pretty simple , but is a great melody line... So we can imagine that when we play arpeggios , or legato exercises in the same position , we play same "very simple " piece of music .

Anyway , in my opinion , we need to work on fundamentals ( suond , articolations , flexibility , range , intonation , dynamics , ecc ) with specific exercises , because if one play a really beautiful piece of music , but he lacks in some of the technics required to execute it , it will result some "ugly music" .. not so fun ..

Best regards
Giancarlo

[Wilktone]

Here are some things you might consider. They aren't all directly related to playing while fatigued, but maybe indirectly helpful.

For me, my own practice is 75% musical material that I either feel the need to learn because of some musical aspect that the exercise of learning it will focus on, or because I like the piece of music. I guess that's not a very scientific way to approach it. But the way I figure it, the whole point of holding the horn and blowing thru it is to make music, so why not focus on that. Each piece of music will teach some technical aspect of playing in its own way. And it's a lot more fun than doing exercises for the sake of exercises.

You'll find a lot of advocates for this approach. Many teachers address technique through musical materials. While I do feel that it's important to spend daily practice time on musical materials, I also feel that working on playing mechanics alone is also important. Yes, we need to figure out where our balance needs to be. Depending on your goals (to get better or to just have fun playing music) you might improve faster if you spend more time working on things that aren't as fun for you. We enjoy playing things that we can already do well, but going outside of our comfort zone is where we make the most improvements.

Sometimes I do exercises but usually for a very short time. They get boring so quickly and become like exercise for the sake of exercise. I am in this to enjoy it and have fun, and the exercises aren't but I understand a need to incorporate them in some quantity into the routine, I just try to keep them to a minimum.

Regular practice is sort of like exercising regularly. The best physical exercise for you, I think, is the one that you enjoy enough to do regularly. If you don't enjoy practicing exercises and aren't dedicated enough to do them anyway then it would be better for you to practice something else over not practicing at all.

But if you're getting bored playing exercises perhaps you might consider where your attention is while playing exercises. Most exercises are unmusical on purpose so you can put your attention on aspects of your technique. Personally, I find it meditative to play exercises while observing a single aspect of my playing mechanics. I set my practice goals to cycle through different materials, lightly touching on some topics and focusing more on others.

As far as warmups go, I am almost never good until I have played for 30 minutes or so...takes a long time to warm up. And that is best done in short 5 minute sessions with short breaks. Usually by then if I am going to sound good that day, I will by then.

I agree that requiring 30 minutes of playing before you feel warmed up seems as if there's some inconsistencies in how you're playing. And practicing past the point of fatigue is a good way to ingrain some habits you want to avoid.

What are you practicing to warm up? Modifying your warm up to get you ready to play quicker and adjusting how and what you're practicing might be useful.

Dave

[Tomingoode]

So many good answers I scarcely know where to begin but, perhaps by addressing a common thread that seems to run thru everyone's answer concerning exercises. I think addressing the way I approach doing exercises needs to be changed. You, meaning most if not all of you, have pointed out that I may be missing the point about playing them musically and focusing my attention appropriately. Probably guilty as charged. That's something to work on and attempt to improve.
I have found that warm up time varies all over the place. Some days it happens fairly easily and quickly other days I just struggle to get in the zone where I feel like the chops are responding to input from the brain. Consistency in that area has eluded me so far, and that may be partly due to age, but I refuse to use that as an excuse. I have been struggling with getting consistent sleep and I credit that with much of the inconsistent performance with the horn. I am making some headway getting more consistent sleep patterns and that seems to be helping some. It does seem to be all interconnected and very much a process of constant refinement and constant self examination to find the improvement one looks for. I appreciate your input guys.

[Tomingoode]

Dave

I tend to start with long tones, followed by a few scales, mostly working from f on the staff upwards. Not to pummel but just explore the upper register a bit. Sometimes some lip slurs but again not a lot of those just a few to exercise the chops a little and wake them up. I might try playing some faster scales to work on coordination of slide and chops as that is a definite weak spot. It varies all over the place. Then I'll go to a piece of music I am trying to learn to play and work on it for a bit. When I feel like I have hit a wall on that piece I will move to another piece and work on it. I always have several in rotation I am working on. And always trying to make it sound good....whether its musical or not depends on who's listening I guess

[VJOFan]

Daily warmups (or maybe saying routine is better) can't really be about how things feel. Okay, monitor how things are working to ensure that good habits are being reinforced, but the selection of exercises and the order of things should be preset and pretty much consistent day to day.

If the warm up/routine process is consistent, consistent playing will follow. I did a Remington based routine for decades as a player simply because I had teachers who told me to. It didn't have to be that routine, but I am glad to have been made to do it. I never had to think about the first part of my practice any day. That made it easy to just play no matter how things felt at first. If I didn't like how an exercise went I may have repeated it a time or two, but otherwise just progressing through the same things each day led to being ready to play whatever music or studies were on tap that week.

With more experience, I now choose to try new routines, but still apply the principal of sticking with one set pattern for the first portion of my practice.

Further, as a masters athlete (distance running) I have had a new opportunity to explore the results of consistent patterns of practice. Old bodies can feel very different day to day so I have to follow a routine to get me to the point where I feel like I can run. I can't let tightness or stiffness change my routine much more than for example spending 30 extra seconds on loosening my shoulders before moving on to the next exercise.

I know what each thing I do is supposed to accomplish. I focus on doing it correctly. By the end of the routine, running is easy. Being routine oriented also lets me know for sure if something is actually wrong or if I am just too fatigued to continue that day and make the call about practice based on comparable sensations day to day.

[Wilktone]

Tomingoode,

Ideally, you want your "warm up" (I prefer to think of it more as my "playing mechanics routine than a warm up) to at least touch on the basics of what you need to be able to play in any musical situation.

Upper register
Lower register
Loud playing
Soft playing
Staccato tonguing
Legato tonguing
Lip flexibility
Slide technique
etc.

I tend to start with long tones, . . .

"Long tones" can be played in a variety of ways, some of them potentially counter-productive. Simply playing individual pitches and holding them out trains you to play a single note, whereas slow lip slurs trains you to change notes. Personally, I prefer to play slow lip slurs. It addresses playing a note and getting it focused, but in the context of moving to another pitch. Long tone exercises that stay on the same partial, such as Remmington's, are also good because you can also work on slide technique with them.

Regardless, when you play long tones of any variety, where your attention is matters. You mentioned that you got some help from Doug, so he's probably pointed out some things for you to work on. If applicable, make sure that when you're playing long tones that you have a goal in mind and are working to improve something in your playing mechanics.

. . . followed by a few scales, mostly working from f on the staff upwards. Not to pummel but just explore the upper register a bit.

I practice my scales at different dynamics and with different articulations and rhythmic patterns to help me work on those aspects of playing technique. I also change around what scale type I focus on so that I cycle around through all the different scales and modes that I want to have for general music playing and improvisation.

Don't neglect practicing scales below F on the staff. Balance the upper register scale practice with some lower register scale practice.

Sometimes some lip slurs but again not a lot of those just a few to exercise the chops a little and wake them up.

As I mentioned above, slip slurs are good for practicing playing between different partials cleanly and smoothly. Playing them over different ranges and in different intervals is great for working on those certain playing mechanics too. It's fine to just touch on them, but you might consider how much time you're spending on them and do more, if applicable.

Again, you should have a mechanical goal in mind while practicing lip slurs and make sure that you're putting your attention on playing correctly. Refer to what Doug suggested to you.

I might try playing some faster scales to work on coordination of slide and chops as that is a definite weak spot. It varies all over the place.

When working on playing weaknesses consider how much you should challenge yourself. Playing things that you already do well is fine, but you're not going to progress unless you challenge yourself. Playing things that are difficult is good too, but things that are hard to play often allow poor playing habits to predominate. I feel that the most progress is made when you're practicing at a point where you can almost, but not quite play it cleanly. Consider your tempo and range when working on faster scales and try to adjust how you're practicing them accordingly.

Then I'll go to a piece of music I am trying to learn to play and work on it for a bit. When I feel like I have hit a wall on that piece I will move to another piece and work on it. I always have several in rotation I am working on.

"Hitting a wall" is a vague enough term that I'm not sure if you're practicing beyond the point of where you should be and reinforcing poor playing habits. When I practice for music I usually have a specific goal in mind, whether it's to play as expressively as possible or to get certain phrases comfortable. I try to set attainable goals for that practice session that are steps to longer term goals. After I've spent some time working on whatever my goal is I'll try to put that into the context of the broader piece I'm practicing (i.e., now play through the entire piece without stopping as if I was performing with all my attention on playing musically). I don't try to "run into a wall."

And always trying to make it sound good....whether it's musical or not depends on who's listening I guess

Sometimes my wife talks with her parents on the phone when I happen to be practicing. She thinks it's amusing when they ask her, "What's Dave doing? That sounds weird." Like I mentioned above, I try to set my practice goals so that I'm working on things that I can't quite play. Many of the exercises I practice regularly are also working on extremes (i.e., squeakers in the very high register, pedal tones, glissing between partials using my embouchure and air instead of the slide, etc.).

Jugglers have an expression, "If you're not dropping you're not learning." Yes, you should try to make what you're playing sound good, but if everything sounds good you're not learning.

Lastly, I second (third?) what has been mentioned above about structuring your practice time with built in breaks. Consider resting as much as you're playing in an individual practice session. If you're practicing for 60 minutes you might only actually have the metal on the mouth for 30 minutes of that time, but it might be 5-10 minutes of playing followed by 5-10 minutes of resting. I wrote this post during several practice breaks, but I often spend that time working on non-music related projects, reading brass fora, listening to music, etc. When I practice jazz improvisation I often record myself and then listen back to it during my break.

If you feel that you must be utilizing those break periods working on something musical, find something you can do that doesn't involve playing for that short break, even if it's mental practice (i.e., playing air trombone to work on slide technique or singing the phrase you're working on). Sometimes it's helpful to change your focus to something non-musical during that break as it can help you focus on the music related stuff when you come back.

I hope there's something in there you find helpful. Keep us posted how things are going for you.

Dave

[Tomingoode]

Thats a really active routine...I don't know that I could manage that level of regimentation or intensity of activity. Wow.

[ryebrye]

A new runner can't create the strength and endurance for a marathon by lacing up and running 26 miles: a developing trombonist can't get high range endurance by playing Bolero 20 times in a row without a break.

Patient, regular work pays off in the end.

Runners often quote: "You don't get better at running by running. You get better at running by _recovering_ from running."

In the book "Peak Performance" Steve Magness (coach of olympic athletes etc) and Brad Stulberg follow around peak performers in various disciplines - including musicians. They find that in general, high performers push themselves very hard during their practice time (compared to people who play an instrument "just for fun" where their practice sessions are playing pieces they know well, the top performing musicians they interviewed had intense practice sessions that were "work")

They simplify the way growth occurs as "Stress + Rest = Growth" you need a stimulus, and you need to recover from that stimulus.

I don't know what the recovery time is for the factors that are limiting training in music training - it will be different if it's a muscle-building issue (can take a few weeks to get the body to decide to strengthen muscle fibers and then actually do it and bring the new ones online) or if it's a central-nervous system thing (creating mylenated sheaths around key neurons) - but I'd say a general rule would be:

Occasionally have days where you push it if you are trying to build endurance. If you push it too far and it impacts your ability to play more the next day, dial it back.

Have little breaks. Multiple 30-minute sessions with a break time between them long enough to let you come back to the next session feeling ready to go (30 on 30 off? whatever you need)

Disclaimer: I'm not a trombone player, just the parent of one (but I have applied these ideas to guitar playing, and distance running)

[Doug Elliott]

"Occasionally have days where you push it" is more for strength training than endurance.

[VJOFan]

Endurance is an attribute built up over time by regularly applying, usually low level, stress. Little by little the length of time playing at a certain intensity can be extended.

However, it is also true that stronger muscles can endure more than weaker muscles.

The broad difference in training endurance versus strength (even though they are complimentary attributes) is that in endurance the recovery period is after the exercise, where as in strength sessions, there has to be a good deal of recovery built in during the exercise time. One wants to be more or less fully recovered before each strength repetition. One wants to exercise for endurance to a point where you still feel like you could do just a little more or could have applied a bit more intensity, and probably both.

The OP originally said that they would have a better idea what to do if they were training for running. I would say the principles of good training apply pretty well to trombone playing.

[Doug Elliott]

Exactly.