Griego V3

[brassduoDJ]

Anyone have first hand experience with this particular model of the Griego line of mpcs? I like lots of diameter but with not the deepest cup- that seems to be a good combo for the solo stuff I do.

[harrisonreed]

I used this one for a few years. I still have the rim that I cut off on my small bore DE setup.

The rim is like a wide version of the Christian Lindberg rim -- very round contour. So not only is the cup diameter wider (Lindbergs are like 1.025 or so, the V3 is like 1.060), but the actual width of the contour is larger, from inner diameter to outer diameter. The high point is closer to the inner diameter drop off.

IIRC, the throat and backbore felt pretty tight. You could play forever on it but you couldn't get loud. It also accentuated a weird upper overtone that you could hear whole playing and that also showed up in recordings.

My impression, even after using it for a few years, was that it was extremely easy to play, but it was not loud enough for any of the playing I need to do and the overtones sounded whack.

[tbonesullivan]

I've looked at the Bousfield Line before, but was never quite sure where to start. I did hear that the rims are not exactly typical, which is always fun to deal with. The O series sounds like more what I would be looking for than the V series, which maybe describes the shape of the cup?

[harrisonreed]

The O series has a cup that is similar to the Alessi C cup, with the same too-narrow throat specs as the V series. The O series throat also has a really long cylindrical section in the throat.

They also differ in the entrance slope into the throat. The V series has a wide entrance into the throat, while the O series is abrupt.

[brassduoDJ]

I've looked at the Bousfield Line before, but was never quite sure where to start. I did hear that the rims are not exactly typical, which is always fun to deal with. The O series sounds like more what I would be looking for than the V series, which maybe describes the shape of the cup?

That is very helpful information. I appreciate it! I have been playing on the Bach 4G but feel that upper range is just too much work though I like the tone. I did notice that the Griego 3B appears to have a bigger throat to allow for more flow. Perhaps I will start there. Have you by chance tried any of the Griego Artist series pieces?

[brassduoDJ]

I used this one for a few years. I still have the rim that I cut off on my small bore DE setup.

The rim is like a wide version of the Christian Lindberg rim -- very round contour. So not only is the cup diameter wider (Lindbergs are like 1.025 or so, the V3 is like 1.060), but the actual width of the contour is larger, from inner diameter to outer diameter. The high point is closer to the inner diameter drop off.

IIRC, the throat and backbore felt pretty tight. You could play forever on it but you couldn't get loud. It also accentuated a weird upper overtone that you could hear whole playing and that also showed up in recordings.

My impression, even after using it for a few years, was that it was extremely easy to play, but it was not loud enough for any of the playing I need to do and the overtones sounded whack.

I appreciate this review a ton- thank you! The rounded rim is not my favorite- the reason I tried and did not stay with the Lindberg mpcs. Do you have any recommendations for a mpc that does classical solo work, such as the David, well and still captures the quintessential symphonic trombone sound? I am glad to have some direction in this- I just want to make the performance a great one. thanks again!

[BGuttman]

I don't think there is a "magic" mouthpiece to do what you want. I went from a 4G to a Wick 4BL. Some folks love the Wick rim and others hate it. Seems to be no middle ground here.

[harrisonreed]

I appreciate this review a ton- thank you! The rounded rim is not my favorite- the reason I tried and did not stay with the Lindberg mpcs. Do you have any recommendations for a mpc that does classical solo work, such as the David, well and still captures the quintessential symphonic trombone sound? I am glad to have some direction in this- I just want to make the performance a great one. thanks again!

If you are already scheduled to perform a concerto with an orchestra, I wouldn't change gear prior to the performance. Use whatever got you hired for that job.

I'm hesitant to make a recommendation without that big warning .

You say you like large diameter mouthpieces, but how do you know that? What mouthpiece do you currently use? That, along with hearing your playing, would help make an informed recommendation.

My uninformed recommendations, from most orthodox to least:

1. For the David, and just general playing, I would use something with the playing characteristics of a 6 1/2 AL. You can get 6 1/2 AL type mouthpieces with all kinds of rim widths and cup diameters, in large or small shank. Believe it or not, the 5CL is a 6 1/2 AL, with the crazy CL rim contour. The cup, throat, and backbore match up very closely to a Bach 6 1/2 AL.

2. Most players in the US use something that is either a 4G or 5G. Try that

3. A Doug Elliott XT F / F8 setup with appropriate rim size would work well.

4.. The Alessi/ Artist Griego pieces come in different cup widths -- the C is very good in large ensembles. The B might work as a solo or all rounder.

5. Check out Vennture Mouthpieces, and try making the mouthpiece you want. Choose a 6 1/2 AL model (they have 2, one is much wider than the other) and adjust the cup depth to whatever you think you want. Keep everything else the same, use a normal blank weight (usually .25 or so) and make sure the "tip diameter" matches the model data. Or choose whatever model you want from the database. Or choose the "UMI 4CL with DE XT106N rim", which is my Frankenstein piece, combining the rim diameter you're after with a 6.5AL cup cut by Bob Reeves and the Lindberg throat and backbore. I'm a big fan of this company, but not associated with them at all. There is a very high risk of winding up with a very expensive paperweight if you go this route (and don't know what you are doing or deviate far from designs that you know work for you), so maybe try a cheap 3D print from them first. I cannot stress enough that you NEED to match the tip diameter and overall length metrics with the original design, otherwise you'll wind up with something completely crazy and it won't fit properly into the leadpipe.

[brassduoDJ]

i just made a demo recording a few days ago using my Bach 4G and .547 open wrap tenor. I can send if you would like to hear. it is essentially just the first portion of the David. [email protected] - email me and I will send it with my reply.
I had no idea the Lindberg 5CL was a 6 1/2AL clone with the crazy rim!! I want to try one again to see if I have changed since then. Meanwhile the 4G will do but it just seems like too much work to really pump out the sound for too long. Maybe I just need to start doing more push-ups...

[Matt K]

Is that true about the 5CL being 6.5AL?? Mine seems like the throat is enormous compared to the 6.5s I have. And it seems a touch shallower too. Closer to one of Doug’s D cups maybe. Perhaps mine is a mistake or had something custom done to it.

[harrisonreed]

Is that true about the 5CL being 6.5AL?? Mine seems like the throat is enormous compared to the 6.5s I have. And it seems a touch shallower too. Closer to one of Doug’s D cups maybe. Perhaps mine is a mistake or had something custom done to it.

There are as many 6.5ALs as Bach made.

I have scans of a few 6.5s and the 5CL I can do as a comparison. Maybe I'm wrong. But I was just looking at it yesterday. Give me a bit and I'll check it out.

[Posaunus]

Is that true about the 5CL being 6.5AL?? Mine seems like the throat is enormous compared to the 6.5s I have. And it seems a touch shallower too. Closer to one of Doug’s D cups maybe. Perhaps mine is a mistake or had something custom done to it.

All the Bach 6½ALs (and their copycats) that I have tried have been consistent in their throat diameter: 6.63mm (0.261") - same as Bach's spec.

The Christian Lindberg 5CL throat diameter (spec and measured) is 6.76mm / 0.266"

The Christian Lindberg 4CL throat diameter (spec and measured) is indeed huge: 7.70mm / 0.303"

As for the cup:

[harrisonreed]

Matt, you're right about the cup on the 5CL being shallower. But it's not by much. Also, the throat is VERY similar in the 5CL and both 6.5AL scans that I have access to. Here's some data:

Two Bach 6 12 AL.PNG

Here are two small shank 6.5AL's. First of all, you can see here that the two 6.5AL examples have slightly different cup sizes, and are very different in the throat. The red one is .267 in the throat and the green one is .260 in the throat. Even crazier, the cup diameter (as measured arbitrarily in the software) is 1.03 in the green and 1.01 in the red version. A HUGE difference. And once we look at the 5CL you'll see that it's diameter is also 1.03 (measured on the same point in the software).

6AL vs 7C vs 5CL.PNG

For this one, I have compared the 7C, 6.5AL (the green one above has become red now), and the 5CL. Again, you can see that the cup on the 5CL, while shallower than the 6.5AL, is MUCH closer to the 6.5AL than a 7C in both contour and depth. Also, the throat dimension is MUCH closer to the 6.5AL than the 7C, at .265 on the 5CL and .267 on the 6.5AL.

6AL vs 5CL vs 5G.PNG

For this one, I have compared the 5CL, the same 6.5 AL, and a large shank Bach 5G. Again, you can see that the 5CL is MUCH closer to a 6.5AL than the significantly deeper 5G (the standard large shank mouthpiece). Also, you can see that the 5G has a larger throat at .274. It also has a larger backbore taper.

Griego 3C vs 6AL vs 5CL.PNG

Just for fun, here is the Griego Alessi 3C in the mix. Again, the 6.5AL and 5CL are very similar, and the 3C is huge.

I don't have an image, but the large shank 6 1/2 A has nearly the same backbore taper as the 5CL, and the cup is almost exactly the same as the small shank 6.5 AL's (but the 5CL is slightly shallower).

Interestingly, the 4CL, while having a monsterously larger throat (.307), has a cup shape that is almost exactly the same as the small shank 6.5AL examples here. Hope this sort of shows why I was thinking what I was thinking. No it's not exact, but the similarity is undeniable.

[Matt K]

Very interesting!

Edit: I indeed was conflating the 4CL and the 5CL. Eyeballing it, mine very closely matches the Shires 6.5AL I have but the throat is still noticeably bigger. I don't have a pair of calipers, so I wonder if it's because the Shires 6.5AL has a smaller thoat or if mine is slightly bigger than the 5CL pictured here.

Have you ever done a comparison of the 2,4, and 5 CL back to back? I seem to recall you’ve scanned them

[harrisonreed]

All the CLs are in that software. The 4CL is not stock though, it's as adapted by Bob Reeves. He didn't touch the throat or bore though.