Inferiority Complex/Imposter Syndrome

[BennyBoy]

Hello fellow musicians.

I am a college trombonist, and as I navigate my music career I start to see things that are very challenging for me. I deeply love to play music and I have an incredibly strong desire to improvise.

As I struggle in my own ways I am trying to analyze how and why I'm struggling. Recently I've come to a conclusion that I struggle deeply with an Inferiority complex. In Jazz jams particularly I may show up with the intention to play and to improve my playing, although It is likely I would end up experiencing chronic self-doubt, low self-esteem, and the need to remove myself from the situation because of these feelings of inadequacy and insecurity. I definitely don't see my self as an incredible improvisor, but I do know that putting myself in those situations will help me improve myself in that area. But these feelings of inadequacy are so strong that it prevents me from doing the things I want to do.

If anyone has any advice or support to offer from one musician to another. I'm asking, please help.

[Doug Elliott]

Your situation is a GOOD sign, not a bad one. It's much better to know you need to improve than to be overly confident.

Go to those sessions but don't take your horn. Practice being a listener. Imagine yourself playing, without the pressure of intending to play.

On your own practice time, transcribe other solos and learn them... One at a time, memorize them, and play them until it is so comfortable you feel like you ARE the person who played it.

As you listen to any and all music, analyze what you hear and play along in your mind... BE the person you hear.

It gets better. I'm really just telling you what I do and have done.

[hyperbolica]

I was in a group one time where I was not confident in my improv skills, and another player was totally confident. I made the mistake of saying that I'd give improv a try, but I thought I'd probably just sound like the confident guy. I need to practice keeping my mouth shut even more than improvising.

I've slowly started trying my hand at improv. I'm convinced the best thing for me is to work stuff out beforehand, and get used to fitting it in to the rest of the music. Everybody takes a different path, but you have to get to the point of actually doing something. Start with a simple song, play over a backing track, play the melody, then gradually start embellishing more and more.

There's a big thread still active about why trombone players suck at improvising. Lots of ideas on what to work on there. Lots of us struggle with this.

[JacobsianApostle]

I can’t recommend strongly enough that you find people with whom you feel comfortable and play with them regularly. Maybe just go and listen at jams like Doug suggested and if there’s a rhythm section player you really like ask them if they want to play a weekly session at school. When you play regularly with the same people you get over the fear of being judged, you feel freer to experiment and make mistakes, you can concentrate on actually making music.

I was really fortunate in high school and college to have a group of people with whom I played at least once a week. These people heard me succeed and heard me fall on my face countless times and they became like musical family. Those environments were crucial to the development of both my confidence and my skills as an improviser. Just having a safe space (ideally with friends or people who become friends through the process) to play and grow and not worry about failure is literally life-changing as a young improviser.

If you’re in school then it shouldn’t be too difficult to find some other students who are down to play in a classroom together a couple times a week. I guarantee you that plenty of other students feel the same way as you and would be eager to create the same sort of opportunity for the themselves.

[elmsandr]

Find a safe scenario to fail for you. Your solos aren’t all going to be good. That’s OK. There are some released studio extra takes that suck from every master you can imagine. Have a plan for how you want to craft a session, then have yourself, and preferably somebody else you trust, give honest feedback on how you executed that plan. Even better if you have recordings you can dissect as well. These don’t need to be studio level masters, just a handy reference if you thought you really mucked something up but your friend didn’t notice the same thing, or vice versa, you can reference the actual thing. We often don’t hear ourselves the same way others do, both good and bad.

Remember, if nobody is throwing a cymbal at you; you’re not the biggest failure or imposter in the world. Heck, even if they do, it will still turn out all right if you adjust and learn.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2011 ... bal-thrown

Cheers,
Andy

[afugate]

If you have the luxury a combo that is open and affirming, play a tune you really know cold. You've transcribed it. You've listened intently to dozens of renditions of it, over and over, until it's embedded into your soul. It's better to know 3-4 tunes so deeply that what you play is just gonna happen because that's what your body knows, than it is to just kind of know 50 tunes.

--Andy in OKC

[Lastbone]

You might start with something easy... ask your rhythm section to play a bit of blues in C. Record it on our phone and loop it in Audacity. Viola! Now you have something to work with at home.

It also pays to start learning to play by ear. Start with simple tunes -- Broadway, standards, pop, hymn tunes -- whatever. As you learn to pick up tunes by ear, you'll have an easier time improvising. It takes a bit of time, but it's all fun.

[robcat2075]

There are so many automated and recorded play-along options available today that you should have no shortage of private practice opportunities before you are heard by judgemental ears.

And I presume you have done that. So what is left is the psychological problem. You think you're not worthy? Find a setting where that doesn't matter. Or decide that their opinion doesn't matter. What are they going to do? Roll their eyes? Have security show you out?

If the rest of them are so amazing what are they doing in the same room with you? Shouldn't they be out playing Wembley Stadium?

The best audition I ever played in my life was when I thought it didn't matter. I presumed everyone was so many light years ahead of me that it didn't matter how hard I tried. I had no worries to hold me back.

That is a difficult frame of mind to recapture. Imagining that the trombone matters more than it does creates problems.

So I think there is a value in deciding "so what?" about what other people are thinking.

[ngrinder]

I agree with Doug. The best musicians (and people) I know tend to suffer from what you describe - I know I certainly did/do. Just realize that your pursuit of improvement is more important than the feelings you're experiencing, and while it is painful to not be where you want musically, it is a sign that you have *great* taste. Keep pushing through, it will get better. One day you'll listen to a recording of yourself and say "hey, this isn't 100% terrible!"

[Kbiggs]

Welcome to the club. Many highly-functioning people experience those thoughts and feelings. You’re not alone, and—crucially—others you see improvising and appear to be good at it have also experienced those thoughts and feelings, and probably still do. (If they say they don’t or haven’t, they’re probably lying. )

In addition to the excellent musical advice above, I would suggest a few sessions with a GOOD* counselor or psychologist who is familiar with the demands of performing artists. (I doubt you need a psychiatrist, unless you also suffer from severe performance anxiety.) A good counselor or psychologist will (a) be warm, open, and take your concerns seriously right away; (b) listen to your concerns and fears; (c) allow you the time to “sit” with them and still feel competent (“safe”); (d) suggest a course of action with your input.

Sometimes, we just gotta work through things away from the horn. When we’ve exhausted the possibilities we can think of—or we become frozen due to perceived inadequacy and insecurity—a GOOD* counselor/psychologist can help navigate the mental morass.

We all need help, and we can’t do everything ourselves.

Just think about it.

Let us know how it goes.

*A GOOD counselor can be hard to find. Start with the list from your insuror, or ask at your student healthcare organization. Families and discreet word-of-mouth can be helpful when finding a counselor.

[Thelonious]

(...) these feelings of inadequacy are so strong that it prevents me from doing the things I want to do

As already mentioned, this makes me think that talking to a counselor would help... your college might even have some facilities for this. It's a hard process but it can help you work through this feeling and other things.

For me, in these kinds of situations it also helps to know and think that everyone is dealing with their own issues and more focused on themselves... they probably won't give your performance as much importance as you think they will.

Identifying you have an issue and asking for help is already a huge step, so I believe you will get through it!

[Kbiggs]

I second what Thelonious said.

I should have added that if you decide to see a counselor (which, from your description, sounds like it could be very helpful), don’t feel as though you must be locked in to the first one you see. If the relationship between client and counselor is not a good fit, you’ll know it.

Also, bear in mind that impostor syndrome might be a symptom. You might have a different condition or diagnosis. Leave the diagnosis to the professionals. Your job is to continue working on musical education, and to make your best effort, with a counselor’s guidance, to work through whatever it is that prevents you from achieving your goal.

[timothy42b]

(...) these feelings of inadequacy are so strong that it prevents me from doing the things I want to do

As already mentioned, this makes me think that talking to a counselor would help... your college might even have some facilities for this. It's a hard process but it can help you work through this feeling and other things.

College is an ideal time to see a counselor. Most places provide this service at no cost and with no hassle - no need to see a primary physician, pay a copay, get a referral, pay another copay, drive to where nobody knows you <smiley> etc. And the staff at these places sees a lot of concerns similar to yours.

I worked at a university counseling clinic when I was in grad school, and they had very skilled counselors, and confidentiality was always maintained. This is a safe space.

[Bach5G]

Lots of that going around. Always has but now has a new, trendy name: Imposter Syndrome.

Learn to identify negative self-talk and dismiss it as such.

[timothy42b]

Learn to identify negative self-talk and dismiss it as such.

Maybe, but... Some of us who've had some success in a career, maybe been promoted a few times and generally regarded as competent by our peers and management, have a slightly different take.

We identify some gaps in our skill sets and work around them with some effort to accomplish the mission. But we're always conscious they exist, even if we successfully hide them, and that always leaves a little fear someday we'll be found out. (Speaking mostly for myself, as someone who started as an entry level engineer and was eventually the manager of the organization. But I've had conversations with my peers at other locations and this isn't unusual.)

[harrisonreed]

"A man's gotta know his limitations"

-Dirty Harry
-Clint Eastwood


-Michael Scott

-Harry Reed

[BGuttman]

...

We identify some gaps in our skill sets and work around them with some effort to accomplish the mission. But we're always conscious they exist, even if we successfully hide them, and that always leaves a little fear someday we'll be found out. (Speaking mostly for myself, as someone who started as an entry level engineer and was eventually the manager of the organization. But I've had conversations with my peers at other locations and this isn't unusual.)

This seems to be especially prevalent in STEM careers. Our schooling concentrates on the technical side of the career, but once we start moving up we are expected to "absorb" management skills by osmosis or something. We become like Dilbert's Boss, clueless about how to supervise his people. I've been there.

[Posaunus]

This seems to be especially prevalent in STEM careers. Our schooling concentrates on the technical side of the career, but once we start moving up we are expected to "absorb" management skills by osmosis or something. We become like Dilbert's Boss, clueless about how to supervise his people. I've been there.

Been there on which side of the desk?

[BGuttman]

This seems to be especially prevalent in STEM careers. Our schooling concentrates on the technical side of the career, but once we start moving up we are expected to "absorb" management skills by osmosis or something. We become like Dilbert's Boss, clueless about how to supervise his people. I've been there.

Been there on which side of the desk?

Unfortunately, both.

[MrHCinDE]

...

We identify some gaps in our skill sets and work around them with some effort to accomplish the mission. But we're always conscious they exist, even if we successfully hide them, and that always leaves a little fear someday we'll be found out. (Speaking mostly for myself, as someone who started as an entry level engineer and was eventually the manager of the organization. But I've had conversations with my peers at other locations and this isn't unusual.)

This seems to be especially prevalent in STEM careers. Our schooling concentrates on the technical side of the career, but once we start moving up we are expected to "absorb" management skills by osmosis or something. We become like Dilbert's Boss, clueless about how to supervise his people. I've been there.

In my job as an engineering consultant, I recognize this well. Since this thread is turning into a STEM support group, I'd add that as well as technical and supervisory management skills, there's a lot of commercial/contractual knowledge which is necessary for some jobs in the field. I'm not sure what's worse, when lawyers start trying to talk about technical topics or engineers about legal ones (patent specialists aside, they should ideally be trained in both!). I could think of some examples where a little more inferiority complex might have been a good thing in that context.


When it comes to trombone playing, I think a healthy level of awareness of one's present limitations is probably a good thing, it helps to identify areas of improvement.


Some thoughts for the OP:

In the specific example of improvisation, I used to believe I just could not do it at all and had no idea where to start. I approached it in small chunks, literally just coming up with a nice lick for a couple of bars to a backing track until I felt ready to take an easy 16 bar solo in a big band chart. A lot of big band solos are pretty short and have reasonable chord progressions, plus if you get stuck you can very easily revert back to an embellished version of the main melody. Also, many bands I've played in had a core set of big band charts in most gigs, only a handful of which have a solo indicated for trombone anyway, so you have a fair idea of what's coming.

Once I had played some ok solos in the rehearsals of our 3-4 standard charts with bone solos, I started asking for the solos in those charts in the gigs. The worst that can happen, even if it doesn't quite go to plan, is that the 16 bars are gone and someone has already started the next solo without the wedding/corporate event/etc. crowd having even noticed.

Focus on the good experiences of when you enjoy the solos you've played and you may find yourself asking for more and longer solos in no time.

Combo playing is more exposed and personally I only felt comfortable trying it once I'd cut my teeth in big band.

I still know I'm nowhere near being a great improviser but more often than not, if it's a chart I know I can more or less play what I intend to.

One final thought, do you happen to speak a 2nd language? Apart from those who are very gifted in such things, nearly everyone else makes mistakes with vocabulary, pronunciation or grammar. It doesn't stop most people from trying their best to communicate and even if you make the odd mistake, the listener is also trying to understand what you are saying. I have the same philosophy about improvisation. It won't always go exactly as you intend but most of the time you will get the message across.

[mandrew]

You might also want to check out Kenny Werner's book "Effortless Mastery".

I forget who to attribute it to, but one of the giants in jazz supposedly described the attitude this way. Some days you're going to be standing up in front of the band and your pants are going to fall down. You've just got to get comfortable with the idea of standing there with your pants around your ankles and keep going. That idea resonated with me when I returned to playing after a ten year hiatus and joined a church based big band that turned out to be a safe space to try things and continue to iterate and learn. As others have said, knowing the tune and the changes so you just feel them, then stop thinking about it and play what you hear has worked best for me.