Slide repair tools (starting from scratch)

[pjanda1]

I'm a serious DIYer who has always been interested in trombone repair. My other hobbies have led me to tear about Porsche transmissions, build high voltage vacuum tube amplifiers, and all sorts of stuff. Though my time is often limited, I've got space and funds to dedicate and a couple of slow months of work coming up. If I go down this path, it'd be largely fooling around with old basket case horns and stuff that is not terrifically expensive. Unfortunately, though, I need to accommodate slides of all different sizes, from .485-.562. My first project may be a bit whacky--building a TIS single bore slide for the Conn-ish "frankenbone" I picked up off marketplace. (Currently a DIY .547-.562 TIS).

I've watched quite a few full time and recreational techs work, from good slide folks to the home shop of a certain famous orchestra tubist. My first main slide repair tech did great work. I don't remember him using mandrels at all--just great caution with dent tools. Then again, he also declared my first Edwards slide beyond repair (cumulative small dings, no major damage), and the Slide Dr. later did an incredible job of resurrecting it (it is now again retired even though it sounded better than any subsequent identical Edwards slide I tried).

I see there are many choices for slide repair tools, both for mandrels and leveling. The Ferree's P88 seems like a good candidate for mandrels. But, I also want to know if things like the "trombone pliers" and the like are good options for picky pros, or whether they are excessively aggressive. My own pursuits will not be a high-volume environment (from a repair standpoint--excerpt practice SPLs are another story).

So, if you more knowledgeable folks were in my shoes, where would you start with tool acquisition? Granite or glass, which mandrels, a full set or a few, etc. I anticipate a steep learning curve replete with failure and frustration, but I don't want to further fill my garage unless I know the tools were serve me well for a long time.

Paul

[Bonearzt]

Most slide "work" is dent removal and realignment.
I would start by buying plain drill rod to fit whatever outer slide you are working on, and a couple of small dent hammers from Ferrees.
https://www.ferreestoolsinc.com/collect ... nt-hammers
F10A and B will suffice for slide dents.

Drill rod:
https://www.mcmaster.com/drill-rods/tig ... teel-rods/

I don't use a stone to "level" or straighten tubes, only when soldering crooks and cross braces to ensure parallelism.
IF you find you need a stone, granite or marble cut-outs from countertops are plentiful and either free or cheap!!

One caveat is to make sure both the rod AND inside of the tube is clean!!! Any bit of dirt will abrade the inner surface of the tube.

[pjanda1]

Hi Eric,

Thanks. I've thought about PM'ing you separately to gauge your interest in either a TIS conversion or being paid to for a "lesson." (I've got a buddy in the DSO ww section, so I'm in the area from time to time).

I've been looking at drill rod from McMaster Carr, Grainger, or worse (alibaba?). Great advice on the important of cleanliness. A nice thing about Colorado's dry climate is that corrosion on raw ferrous metals is much less aggressive. A downside of my multi-use garage is that cleanliness is a challenge.

I do think I need something for assembly. When I first thought about tools 25 years ago, I was contemplating asking gravestone makers for prices. And I was staring at my countertops thinking about the scraps I can find at the local habitat restore. Any thoughts about how flat is flat enough? Are countertop tolerances generally close enough?

Paul

[Bonearzt]

Hi Paul, I believe the countertops are flat enough for what we do, but easy to check with a 3 or 4 ft level or similar.


Feel free to stop by when you're in the area!!

Eric

[craign]

Very interested to hear about your experience and how this works out. DIY repair has recently struck me as something interesting to try.

[BGuttman]

If you want to get an idea of how to do a lot of the repairs, there are two channels on YouTube to look at. One is Wes Lee Music Repair, and the other one is something like "Brass and Woodwind Repair Shop" (I don't remember the exact name). Both show how to do many repairs on all kinds of instruments. Watching some of the dent removal videos can be eye-popping.

[pjanda1]

Yes, Bruce. It is so easy to learn stuff with YouTube. I had to figure out many of my other hobbies in the pre-YouTube times. While there is some benefit to that, I am still frequently astounded to find I've doing something a much harder way or using a tool wrong for years!

On the other hand, I also see clueless folks broadcasting to the world. In the electronics realm, for example, I watched a guy modifying 845 tube amps. I've built my own, despite knowing that I shouldn't touch them, and wouldn't if I had kids. 1000V high voltage rails are entirely different animals from a safety standpoint that the more typical 400V tube amps. If one were to follow the "advice" of this one gent, the odds of suffering a death, or at least a fire, would be ridiculously high.

I have been watching both Wes Lee and the Brass and Woodwind Repair Shop. Even just Wes's video on soldering is sufficient to reduce frustration and to avoid wrecking parts!

Paul

[pjanda1]

I'm going to start with a cheap Amazon "Granite" cutting board as a leveling block. I think it is a composite rock. It is not perfectly smooth, so it may not be ideal for preserving lacquer. I shudder to think that folks use decent knives on these! But, it is pretty flat. It doesn't seem like one needs accuracy to a "thou" when most folks are using mandrels that are as much as seven thou under anyway (like .5781 on the typical .585 slide tube you get with most .547 bore instruments). And, after spending some time pondering the typical slide system, I'm guessing that having the inside of the outer tubes both round, and more importantly, smooth, is a bigger deal than perfect alignment. So, I'll see if this $20 is good enough.

Paul

[Posaunus]

I'm going to start with a cheap Amazon "Granite" cutting board as a leveling block. I think it is a composite rock. It is not perfectly smooth, so it may not be ideal for preserving lacquer.

My guess is that you'd be better off with a remnant of a quartz countertop that should be easily obtained from a local stoneworker as a leftover from a kitchen countertop project. These quartz slabs are very smooth and should be quite level and uniform. Should be very inexpensive; possibly free!

[boneagain]

... It doesn't seem like one needs accuracy to a "thou" when most folks are using mandrels that are as much as seven thou under anyway...

Different functions. The "surface place" is a reference. The mandrel is a (re)forming tool.

Is your workshop a climate controlled space?

Depending on what holds the granite composite cutting particles in place it could be pretty unstable. Thinner (cutting board thickness) samples will be more reactive than thicker ones (counter top thickness.)

Check it for flat with a tested 12" straight edge (not ideal, but if it fails at 12" it will certainly fail at slide lengths) at room temperature. Then test it after running hot water on the middle of one side. If it bows under hot tap water it will bow in an unheated/cooled shop.

Even with a bowed reference you can get meaningful comparisons on "straightness" as long as you do 180 degree reciprocals. Check the test piece one way, then rotate it along the long axis 180 degrees and check again. If the clearance at the SAME test point remains the same, then then test piece is straight even if the "reference" is bowed. If you diagram that you can do the math to figure out how far off things might be.

The best slides I've seen have been more focused on the stockings being perfectly aligned with the outer, and the rest of the inners not being wiggly enough to get in the way than on having the whole inner perfectly straight. Consider a music stand ding right above the stockings. That will give you a choice of getting the stockings back OR having the lower part of the slide perfectly in line.

Guys like Eric (and there REALLY few of them!) do this stuff so well they could do it with almost ANY tool set. Kinda like some players can get great sounds out of ANY horns. Good to hear you plan on taking him up on his offer of some lessons!

Good luck!

[gtieszen]

I'm a little late to this discussion but pjanda1's writings could have been written by me.

I'm new to this forum but watched the old Trombone Forum years ago. I had a couple of Olds, a Special and an S20 bass, that were stolen about 5 yr ago and never recovered. I really mourned the loss of those horns and kind of lost interest in playing.

I'm finally getting the time and interest back and bought another Special (with a good-sized dent in one of the slides) from an online auction site, and I'd like to try my hand at fixing it. Eric's comments/suggestions pretty much confirm what I was planning to do, so I guess I'm on the right track.

For a flat plate I was considering marble tile. Not the ceramic/stoneware glazed tiles, but the REAL marble tiles. At the local Floor and Decor store they have it in pieces from 6x12 all the way up to 12 x 24 and it has a highly polished surface that appears to be really flat. I'll probably also see about getting a granite sink cutout sometime, but the marble is easily accessible and relatively inexpensive.

I recently watched Wes Lee's YT video on the Roth dent machine, and after it completed, I thought -- I'm a life-long tinkerer, I think I can make one of those! We'll see if I'm right -- If successful, I'll post it on this forum.

Glad to be back.

Galen

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I keep a couple of truing slabs around the shop. One of them is a marble pastry slab from Crate and Barrel. It works great and I think it was only $30-35.