Getting to Geffen Hall

[robcat2075]

NY Times article with background on the most recent redo of the NY PHilharmonic's concert hall

critic’s notebook: A Notoriously Jinxed Concert Hall Is Reborn, Again

David Geffen Hall, the New York Philharmonic’s Lincoln Center home, is reopening after a $550 million renovation aimed at breaking its acoustic curse — and adding a dash of glamour

.

...The team also included the acoustician Paul Scarbrough, of the firm Akustiks. In past iterations of the building, acousticians always played second fiddle to architects. It says a lot about Geffen’s priorities that Akustiks got to set the specifications for the hall, recommended the layout and signed off on everything...

[BGuttman]

There was actually one acoustical update before the name change to Fischer Hall. It involved the "clouds" and modifying the side panels. This is the configuration I remember from visiting Philharmonic Hall in the late 1960s. I remember attending a PDQ Bach concert with Peter Schickele dangling from one of the side balconies trying to drop onto the stage.

The Philharmonic was never in love with that hall. Quite a letdown after all the years at Carnegie Hall with its legendary acoustics.

I hope they finally rang the bell with this version.

[robcat2075]

I remember attending a PDQ Bach concert with Peter Schickele dangling from one of the side balconies trying to drop onto the stage.

When he came to our college his first goal was to scope out how he was going to drop to the stage.

Utterly inadvisable in our concert hall so he ended up running in from an entrance at the back. Screaming all the way, of course.

[Posaunus]

I've seen PDQ Bach concerts a few times (a few decades ago), and chatted with him extensively afterwards. The first thing he did when arriving at a new venue was to determine how he could make his "grand entrance" - whether dropping from a balcony, sliding in on a zip line, driving a motorcycle down the main aisle, ... These antics always got the show off to a good start - and it went on from there! Memorable.

[Doug Elliott]

I played a gig with him once many years ago. I did not get the impression that he had any musical talent at all.

[robcat2075]

There was actually one acoustical update before the name change to Fischer Hall.

And I thought there also one after the Fischer redo? But I can't find any mention of it.

While looking up articles about Avery Fischer Hall, I came upon this critic discussing how variable the result can be even in one hall at different seats...


NO, THERE'S NO WAY WE COULD HAVE HEARD THE SAME CONCERT

[LeTromboniste]

Yeah I went to hear one NY Phil concert in Fischer Hall about ten years ago. That was a year or two after I heard them in the then-brand-new and acoustically superb Maison Symphonique in Montreal, so I had some expectations on how the orchestra can sound in person.

We initially went to our assigned seats which were in one of the boxes/balconies on the second tier towards the back. That was horrendous. The balance of the orchestra was all wrong and my neck was hurting like crazy after 20 minutes in those seats stupidly oriented 90° from the direction of the stage (and of course just sitting straight meant having the sound coming all from one side, which obviously made the experience worse). At intermission we sneaked into the box closest to the orchestra on the first tier, which we had spotted was empty. Of course you would expect a relatively large difference between the two positions, but it was really like being in a completely different hall. Not just completely different balance like expected, but also completely different colour to the sound.

[chromebone]

The story goes with the original iteration of Philharmonic Hall is that there was a nationwide broadcast scheduled on one of the networks for the debut concert; as the date drew near, the construction of the hall was behind schedule; the network refused to change the date as it was a big deal to do that sort of thing back then and they threatened to sue for breach of contract, so the hall was slapped together quickly; on top of that, there was a late decision to add additional capacity to keep it in line with the capacity that was at Carnegie Hall; many of the important elements that were needed for the acoustics were altered and as a result, the hall was ruined.
The original Fisher Radio factory was in the general proximity of Lincoln Center, so Avery Fisher had a sense of obligation to have a good hall in the place where he had pioneered high quality home audio.
Avery Fisher was better than the original hall, but still not great; the architects and Lincoln Center insisted in staying with the proscenium layout to accommodate more seating, and that was a major problem with the hall, even the original hall came out from the proscenium somewhat. The late ‘90’s upgrades sought to address some of the issues that the musicians had with hearing each other on the stage; the hall itself wasn’t the biggest problem, it was the stage that caused the imbalance issues because the musicians simply couldn’t hear each other and that’s what caused the imbalance the audience heard out in the hall.
From all early reports, they seem to have gotten it right this time.

[robcat2075]

I heard the NY Phil there in the late 90s for probably the worst thing to present in that hall... Bruckner No. 8.

Thoroughly lame and underwhelming.

It made me understand all the more how excellent the new concert hall in Dallas was.

[Posaunus]

It's impossible to understate the importance of the acoustics of a concert hall. I have been fortunate to attend orchestra performances in some of the best - Symphony Hall in Boston (dozens of times - I lived there for several years), the Musikverein in Vienna, Disney Hall in Los Angeles, .... We are blessed here in California - Segerstrom Hall in Costa Mesa also has excellent acoustics, as does (I think - I've only been there once) Davies Hall in San Francisco. I've also been in some pretty bad halls.

Good acoustics can enhance a great performance; as alluded to here, bad acoustics can ruin any performance. One of my dreams is to attend concerts in some of the world's other great halls. (First on my bucket list is the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam.)

[BGuttman]

I heard the NY Phil there in the late 90s for probably the worst thing to present in that hall... Bruckner No. 8.

Thoroughly lame and underwhelming.

It made me understand all the more how excellent the new concert hall in Dallas was.

Just imagine how frustrating it was to the Philharmonic players in 1962. They had been based in Carnegie Hall, which had superb acoustics, and then were subjected to this.

[2bobone]

During a 25 year orchestral career I had the good fortune to play in many of the great halls in the USA and many of the great halls internationally and can safely say that if the string players [The Wire Choir] enjoyed the hall, the wind [Twig Suckers] and brass players did not and vice versa. The perspective from the stage and as a listener in the house seem to follow a similar pattern. Expectations are seldom met. It's a "thorny" subject !

[BGuttman]

I've heard the Strings called the Wire Choir and the Percussion called the Bang Gang. Never heard the term Twig Suckers before (I love it). Wonder if there is a similar epithet hurled at the brass players? Fart Team? Blat Gang?

[robcat2075]

Just imagine how frustrating it was to the Philharmonic players in 1962. They had been based in Carnegie Hall, which had superb acoustics, and then were subjected to this.

I'd be thinking, "Damn. The people who decided on this hall are the same ones who run this orchestra. We're doomed."

[pmeiden]

For the last 30 years or so, I have had subscription seats just about dead center in the third tier. For me, they had generally better acoustics, and great sight-lines to see the whole stage. In addition they were in the lower price points, so we could afford the 8 concert series (especially as poor newlyweds way back when).

October 15 (also our wedding anniversary) will be our first subscription concert since COVID derailed that season. Our seats are about the same place in the new hall, so will be excited to see how things shake out. Program includes Respighi Pines of Rome, and a number of newer pieces.

Subscription prices have jumped dramatically, and IIRC, we have fewer concerts (although in the spring, Alessi and the Chick Corea concerto is in our series). It was a nice surprise after losing that premiere to COVID.

[chromebone]

Just imagine how frustrating it was to the Philharmonic players in 1962. They had been based in Carnegie Hall, which had superb acoustics, and then were subjected to this.

I'd be thinking, "Damn. The people who decided on this hall are the same ones who run this orchestra. We're doomed."

If the hall had been built as it was supposed to be, it would have been a good hall. There is another hall in NYC at Queens College, Colden Auditorium, that was designed by the same acoustic team as Philharmonic Hall. It was built a couple of years before Lincoln Center; supposedly it was used as a test case for Philharmonic Hall, and it has terrific acoustics. So everyone had good reason to believe Philharmonic Hall was going to be as good.

One of my teachers was a first call freelance horn player back in the day: he played at Carnegie hall often and told me that it wasn’t that much fun to play there as it seemed. As much as the acoustics were wonderful, at the time, everything else about the hall was not: it wasn’t air conditioned, there was almost no room or facilities backstage, it was impossible to record in it because the subway ran under it and recording would pick up the rumble, and there was little or no parking in the area: at that time, more people were moving to the suburbs and would drive into work. Also, Juilliard was on 122 street, so it was a long trip to get up there to teach. So the move to Lincoln Center made sense.
I know that before Geffen came forward with the money, there was talk of the philharmonic moving back to Carnegie Hall, which now has much better backstage facilities and air conditioning after its renovation, but the lack of parking and proximity to Juilliard were still major sticking points with the musicians. At the end of the day, quality of life and convenience are also something to consider.

[BGuttman]

The new facilities at Lincoln Center were actually a very good idea. In the days before it opened, the Met Opera used to have to stage its sets on 39th Street outside the building (and storage and construction were quite remote). I had to travel to the Public Library on 54th Street to borrow records and the music library was somewhere in the 60s on the East Side.

The acoustics of the various buildings was interesting. The New York State Theater was designed for Dance, and the stage sounds were muffled (you don't want to listen to the dancers clomping on the floor) so visiting orchestras or the New York City Opera had a disadvantage. The Met Opera, on the other hand, had marvelous acoustics from the stage so a visiting ballet company had to deal with a load of clomping of dancers' shoes.

[whitbey]

I played a gig with him once many years ago. I did not get the impression that he had any musical talent at all.

I sight read a concert band concert.

The band was so bad, nobody laughed the PDQ Bach piece.

[robcat2075]

If the hall had been built as it was supposed to be...

Yeah, best laid plans... mice, men, horses, barn doors... all that.

Someone in charge made good decisions, then someone else in charge ruined them.

I'm going to guess the governing board was a lot of rich people out of their area of expertise.

[harrisonreed]

It's silly how one of the best orchestras in the world if not THE best, was or is based out of the dopiest concert hall imaginable. I just played a concert in this hall, Rias Hall, in a tiny town in Japan called Ofunato. Population is probably 30,000 people. Yet the hall is one of the best sounding and most comfortable halls I've ever played in. Oh, and did I mention that this town was completely destroyed in 2011 by the tsunami?

DSC_0981.JPG

How is it possible that a hall with NO orchestra or ensemble to speak of can be so superior to a hall that houses the New York Phil? It's like Japan just builds superior halls in their towns as a matter of course, ensemble or no.

Some audio - I think it's just a Zoom in the back of the hall:

[robcat2075]

It's silly how one of the best orchestras in the world if not THE best, was or is based out of the dopiest concert hall imaginable.

When you say "dopiest" what does that mean? Simple?

Oh, and did I mention that this town was completely destroyed in 2011 by the tsunami?

Maybe being built recently is the advantage? Many lessons learned since 1960.

[Posaunus]

Maybe being built recently is the advantage? Many lessons learned since 1960.

Not to mention that the Japanese seem to have some talented acousticians working with / within their architectural community. There are apparently many fine concert halls - small, medium, and large - in Japan. (And also Korea, I believe.) And the willingness to spend the funds to build them. Different cultural values?

[robcat2075]

And the willingness to spend the funds to build them. Different cultural values?

It might be economists at work.

For many years Japan has struggled with low growth and teetered on falling into deflation. Public works are a way to create jobs, put money into the economy, and spur consumption.

I recall one commentary that noted "they have nearly paved the entire country" with public, create employment, projects.

The down side they now have a national debt-to-GDP ratio second only to Venezuela.

I remember when we used to worry that Japan was buying up the world. Now we worry that it will go broke.