Golden gods of trombone slide alignment, or mere mortals like the rest of us?

[none4u]

I've been considering getting my trombone slide aligned recently, and when you ask the internet everybody send you to one of a few places. The slide doctor comes to mind.

My slide is really quite good to begin with, but given the condition of the plating inside the slide I think it could be much better! I feel it deserves to live up to its potential, or maybe I deserve that.

I live in Pittsburgh, PA, where we have 3 different band instrument repair shops. Most of them come out a lot cheaper than the internet community favorites. What do y'all think? Do you trust your local shops? Is the arcane knowledge of how to achieve a silky slide really limited to such a short list of people? Is it worth the extra effort, expense, time, and shipping risk to send it into the great green yonder on a USPS truck?

[tbonesullivan]

How old is the slide, and how clean is the inside of the slide? Oxides and other deposits can build up over time, and eventually need to be removed for optimal slide action.

[mbtrombone]

I have only used Bruce Belo and Don Sawday in the past. In the future I am going to have Brad Close do a slide. I am lucky in LA we have great techs and you can drive your slide to them. I don’t even trust the store I teach at with my slide.

[harrisonreed]

Slide Dr. made the one side I sent them better than brand new.

[mbarbier]

There's no one out there who does quite as amazing of slide work as Bruce Belo, but that's quite a long way to send a slide. The Slide Dr is also really great and a much shorter shipment.

Chuck Ward ( https://www.chuckwardbrass.com/ ) is a relatively close drive to you (about two hours- he's just outside of Cleveland) and is excellent. He's not a slide specialist but does very good slide work and is who all the Cleveland Orchestra brass bring their horns to.

[BGuttman]

We have had good reports from Volkwein's. I think the next nearest would be Chuck Ward.

[SimmonsTrombone]

I’ve had school band guys work on my 88h slide and wound up sending it to the slide dr., if that answers your question. The school band guys did good work on other, more normal things.

[OneTon]

I have had better luck on a Yamaha 697 with BAC in KCMO and Chuck Ward than other local repairman. The local repair do better on the Bach lT42G, Conn 79H, and King 2B. The slide Dr shipping box is easy to make. One aid in the decision making process is to establish criteria. I play with very light embouchure pressure and do not like a horn that jumps off my chops. I do not want to have to touch up a slide more than once every 30 minutes or take it apart to clean it more than once a week. I have some slides that do much better than that. Some new Yamaha slides would go 3 weeks with very light lubricant once, and sprayed water prn. I usually clean slides once a week before the cleaning people clean my house.

Inners with plating wear may be nearing their life cycle usefulness. You don’t say what horn this is. Average techs may make it worse. The higher level techs may not be able to help it. If you stay with worn plating on the inners or the inner parts are not available I question whether it is worth the time and expense to attempt to repair a slide that is pretty good to begin with. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

[CharlieB]

Is it worth the extra effort, expense, time, and shipping risk to send it into the great green yonder on a USPS truck?

Yes, it is worth it.
Stick with a tech that is recommended here. That will give you a high confidence level that your slide will be nearly perfect when he's done. For about $60 or less each way, you can ship a slide from PA to pretty much anywhere in the U.S. Or, you can save a few bucks gambling on an unproven tech and wind up cursing a slow slide.

[robcat2075]

I sent my slide to the Slide Doctor (this was after the first one had retired, I believe)

It certainly came back better than it had been but... it still had noticeable catches and wouldn't pass this test that used to be on the Slide Doctor website...

To evaluate your current slide function:

• Hold the slide by the left hand grip in a horizontal position, so that the slide crosses from left to right in front of your eyes

• Place your right hand inside the space between the outer tubes to be sure that you do not drop the outer slide during the test

• Lower the 7th position end of the slide slowly while holding the left hand at the same height

• Watch to see how far the 7th position end of the slide must be lowered to cause gravity to move the slide out of 1st position

• Watch to see if the slide moves at a consistent speed from 1st to 7th position

• If the crook end of the slide must be lowered more than 3 inches before the before the outer slide will move, the slide will benefit from a setup by the Slide Dr.

• If the slide stops or changes speed as it moves toward 7th position, it will benefit from a setup.

The turn-around on it was many weeks. Too many weeks. Since I had no other trombone to play, that down time was a substantial dent in my aspirations to put my playing back together.

It's the only slide alignment I've ever had done so I can't tell you how this compares with the other suspects.

[bigbandbone]

Ask questions! Who taught you? Where did you learn? Money back policy if you are not satisfied?
When you feel comfortable with someone, take a chance.

[none4u]

We have had good reports from Volkwein's. I think the next nearest would be Chuck Ward.

Just went by Volkwein's for a quote on your reccomendation. The tech I spoke to there is definitely the real deal. I'm gonna give them a try.

[none4u]

Inners with plating wear may be nearing their life cycle usefulness. You don’t say what horn this is. Average techs may make it worse. The higher level techs may not be able to help it. If you stay with worn plating on the inners or the inner parts are not available I question whether it is worth the time and expense to attempt to repair a slide that is pretty good to begin with. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

The plating on my slide is near pristine, which is why I think the slide deserves to play a lot better than it does. Sorry for the ambiguity in how I described the situation.

[greenbean]

Just went by Volkwein's for a quote on your reccomendation. The tech I spoke to there is definitely the real deal. I'm gonna give them a try.

Let us know how it turns out!...

[OneTon]

The effects of lubricant are largely inversely proportionate to how friction free a slide is. Friction free slides are fun to play and can impact technique and musical expression. Good luck.

[brassmedic]

The plating on my slide is near pristine, which is why I think the slide deserves to play a lot better than it does. Sorry for the ambiguity in how I described the situation.

Well which is it?

"My slide is really quite good to begin with, but given the condition of the plating inside the slide I think it could be much better!"

[ithinknot]

Well which is it?

I think the idea is that 'there are no chrome issues standing in the way of good performance, so the other adjustments must be worth doing'

[blast]

I do my own slides. You have to be very methodical and patient and a little bit fearless. I get great results but would NEVER do anyone else's slide. It can go pear shaped.....

[BGuttman]

Almost any tech can deal with a dent. Those are straightforward. The golden hands have to come in when tubes are bent. The straightening of a sprung slide is a true art. Too easy to take something marginal and make it unplayable.

Note to OP: if the inside of the outer is the only problem, try a good cleaning first. Especially with a brush and follow up with a cleaning rod with cheesecloth. Then apply a generous amount of lube and work in. Then clean off most of the lube and give it a water spray. That can often make things work well. If that doesn't help, then maybe a chem clean is in order. The inside of the outer slide is not plated.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

As a tech (it is my side job), I can state with a great deal of certainty that there are numerous people out there that can help the OP with finding “slide action nirvana.” There are some very good people in this forum that have established reputations for great slide work. I believe the OP could go with any of them and will have a very good chance of ending up with an improved slide. If the OP is not satisfied with the work, they can try a different technician the next time around.

As some have stated, there are a lot of variables that go into having a slide with superb action. A good technician will go through a meticulous step-by-step process to create a slide that has straight tubes, is parallel and has metal surfaces that are clean/polished as to create minimal friction. A good technician also knows where to find hidden problems such as: inner stockings are not parallel with the main part of the inner slide, outer sleeves are not parallel with the main side art of the outer tube, stress in the hand braces, stress in the crook solder joints, etc….. Fine tuning slides is like parenthood……some children (slides) are easy to raise (align), others present ongoing challenges. Thus, some slides require more time and TLC than others. If your slide has been to shops before and you have had unsatisfactory results, you might wish to choose a technician that is agreeable to spending more time and being more patient with your instrument.

One thing that has not been discussed here is the PLAYER’S commitment to maintaining the slide. I have sent out many slides from my shop that were superb, dare I say….perfect. Yet, some of the owners never cleaned or swabbed it, the owners put it in a case/bag that placed constant stress on the slide, the owners would have several dents in the slide within a few weeks, or the owners would not have the slide professionally cleaned when it had excessively amounts of mineral deposits in it. Playing a “perfect slide” is a two-way street……the musician must actively engage in the process/relationship in order to keep the slide in tip-top playing condition.

[mbarbier]

.

One thing that has not been discussed here is the PLAYER’S commitment to maintaining the slide. I have sent out many slides from my shop that were superb, dare I say….perfect. Yet, some of the owners never cleaned or swabbed it, the owners put it in a case/bag that placed constant stress on the slide, the owners would have several dents in the slide within a few weeks, or the owners would not have the slide professionally cleaned when it had excessively amounts of mineral deposits in it. Playing a “perfect slide” is a two-way street……the musician must actively engage in the process/relationship in order to keep the slide in tip-top playing condition.

^^^^^^^^^

That's such a huge part!! Anyone who has been to Bruce Below and gotten lectured for not maintaining their slide knows how much of a difference that makes. His big thing is oil the valve when you put it away and always put the slide in the case dry that way there's not moisture in the slide that allows anything to form. I recently got a really shitty dent and took it him after not having any work done on my slide for 7 years. He popped the dents out and fixed a slight bow in my outer and that was it. If you get your slide right, just brush your teeth and swab it out and it'll stay that way unless it gets dented.

[brassmedic]

Well which is it?

I think the idea is that 'there are no chrome issues standing in the way of good performance, so the other adjustments must be worth doing'

Oh, I was interpreting "quite good" to mean excellent, but he must have meant "room for improvement".

[Crazy4Tbone86]

One thing that has not been discussed here is the PLAYER’S commitment to maintaining the slide. I have sent out many slides from my shop that were superb, dare I say….perfect. Yet, some of the owners never cleaned or swabbed it, the owners put it in a case/bag that placed constant stress on the slide, the owners would have several dents in the slide within a few weeks, or the owners would not have the slide professionally cleaned when it had excessively amounts of mineral deposits in it. Playing a “perfect slide” is a two-way street……the musician must actively engage in the process/relationship in order to keep the slide in tip-top playing condition.

^^^^^^^^^

That's such a huge part!! Anyone who has been to Bruce Below and gotten lectured for not maintaining their slide knows how much of a difference that makes. His big thing is oil the valve when you put it away and always put the slide in the case dry that way there's not moisture in the slide that allows anything to form. I recently got a really shitty dent and took it him after not having any work done on my slide for 7 years. He popped the dents out and fixed a slight bow in my outer and that was it. If you get your slide right, just brush your teeth and swab it out and it'll stay that way unless it gets dented.

LOL! Bruce Below sounds like Tony, the mechanic that Jerry used in the show “Seinfeld.” I believe Tony was played by Brad Garrett. Jerry got tired of hearing Tony tell him how poorly he maintained the car. Jerry asked for the keys so he could take the car to another mechanic. Then Tony hi-jacked the car because he didn’t trust Jerry to take care of it!

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Actually…..kudos to Bruce for emphasizing good maintenance of the instrument.

[OneTon]

I have played next to a player whose 88H slide preparation each day includes removing the outer slide, holding it horizontally 8 to 15 inches above the Manhasset stand leg placed in front of him, and releasing the outer slide which then bounces off the Manhasset stand leg and slides across the floor. Sometimes it also hits a chair from the row in front of us. I don’t know what he uses on the slide because I can’t watch any more than what I have related.

[JohnL]

LOL! Bruce Below sounds like Tony, the mechanic that Jerry used in the show “Seinfeld.”

If you really want to get Bruce going, bring your trombone to him in a soft case. His gig bag rants are the stuff of legend.

[hornbuilder]

"Dent Bags", used by "Repeat Customers"

[robcat2075]

When I was at UNT all the very serious trombone players seemed to use gig bags exclusively. To walk from the parking lot to the rehearsal hall they needed a gig bag instead of a case.

Many years later I got one, and as soon as I tried putting my horn in it I thought, "How can this ever work? How can you put a trombone in this and not ruin the slide?"

So I never used my gig bag and never became a very serious trombonist.

[harrisonreed]

I don't really get the idea of soft gig bags either. Hard cases that come with straps do the same thing as a gig bag (really the only thing a gig bag does well), with none of the downsides.

[mbarbier]

"Dent Bags", used by "Repeat Customers"

I like that one!

I heard enough stories before I went to Bruce to know not to bring it in one, but the person who conveyed it to me said he was told "It's a sock- that thing pays your rent and you're carrying it around in a sock. what's wrong with you?" Always liked that one. I'm pretty sure he charges more if you damage your horn in a gig bag. He's a thoroughly excellent character who does awesome work.

[Matt K]

Volkweins did my King 2b+/3b (500/508) slide that I've kicked myself for selling for about 6 years now. They put a leadpipe collar on it that looked really well done... slide action was essentially perfect on it. They've also done a few other slides throughout the years because their proximity when I was playing in Pittsburgh (had gigs in downtown and up north near Cranberry). I don't know if things have changed as one of their techs was nearing retirement who did absolutely superb work, but I would have no hesitation sending a slide there personally.

I've also had Hollis & Germann do some work for me and it was of similar quality. They were a little out of the way compared where I normally visited, but I went to school with one of their daughters, so during college I defaulted to having them do work for me because I could hand something off to her and save myself the drive up to Pittsburgh Again, it's been awhile since I had any work done by them but if it's anything like it was a few years ago, I would have no reservations about sending a slide to them.

[spencercarran]

I sent my Holton bass slide to the Slide Doctor (the old one) and yes he really did work some magic on that thing. Former school horn which showed signs of having been marched, with several dents, poor alignment, some chrome plating loss. On return from him it was the best slide I've ever encountered.

I saw a local shop return slides in worse condition than when they entered, one to such a degree that it rendered the instrument (previously usable but sorta scratchy) physically impossible to play.They somehow put a giant hole clear through the inner slide tube, at about the 2nd position location. Bad leak resulted.

Be careful which tech you trust with your gear.

[sacfxdx]

I use the Slide Doctor. Of course I only live about 10 miles from him. If you do send it to him he will do a first rate job for you.

[BGuttman]

...

I saw a local shop return slides in worse condition than when they entered, one to such a degree that it rendered the instrument (previously usable but sorta scratchy) physically impossible to play.They somehow put a giant hole clear through the inner slide tube, at about the 2nd position location. Bad leak resulted.

Be careful which tech you trust with your gear.

I think this is the reason for the request. We have a couple of techs on here who do excellent slide work, but they are a bit far from Pittsburgh. Eric Edwards is near Dallas, John Sandhagen is in metro Los Angeles, and Benn Hansson is near Seattle.

[spencercarran]

Yep, exactly. If you don't know/trust your local tech, it's a gamble. Getting a Slide Doctor shipping box is expensive, but you can be confident of good results.

[OneTon]

In the bad old days the Slide Dr supplied instructions for fabricating the boxes. Furring strips and contractors foam insulation can be used to make it. UPS demanded that the wooden box be put in a cardboard box at some point. It now looks like the Slide Dr has adopted the proper packing engineering technique of double boxing. It would be possible to take a used trombone shipping container and foam insulation to simulate a similar cardboard box that the Slide Dr shows in his video. I would add the foam, wrap the cardboard around the foam and wooden case, and tape it. Then I would stick cardboard “flaps” over the ends. I don’t know that it is worth the hassle for $30.00. If you are not handsome at least you can be handy.

The Slide Doctor does good work as well as John Sandhagen.

Gator, MTS, and SKB ABS cases with aluminum valences are good for straight trombones and very light. I fit my trombones to the individual case that works best. It looks like the Slide Doctor may cut new foam end inserts for the box after repairing a slide. Preload is bad. A little wiggle room is good. Sometimes the foam inside a case can be “massaged” with iron pipe and/or a ball pein hammer. MTS makes an f attachment case. I have one on order.

Soft cases can be viewed as a blessing or a curse. Dent bags, socks, and “repeat customers” hasten the rate at which aging trombone components get recycled into scrap metal, lowering the cost of raw materials for new trombones.

[jbeatenbough]

I've used both the original Slide Dr (Dr John) and the new (Dr Ray). Probably half a dozen different horns in various degrees of "poor slideness". They both did fantastic work for me. One thing I learned is that sometimes, the outer slide just needs a very thorough cleaning. Another thing I learned is that not every slide can be made "wonderful" unless you are willing to replace parts that aren't completely repairable. Lastly, I learned that if you talk to them and let them know the urgency (or lack of urgency), they can get it done much quicker if need be. I've taken a slide over there and sat and watched the entire process (which is a fun way to spend an hour or two) on several occasions (once on the way to a gig!).

I give the Slide Doctor my highest praise and recommendation.

[whitbey]

My favorite.
Michigan Musical
Kevin Powers, 734/242-4914 c734/915-5606
Monroe Michigan North of Toledo.

Decades ago he was the shop foreman for Shilke. He did the custom work for Tuba world.
He made and installed the curved handles on my slides.
He rebuilt an Edwards clearance slide to exchange the brass outers for nickle outers.
I hold up my slide level and blow, the slide moves.
He does machine shop work to make parts and tubing of any size.
He does not charge enough, I always tip him.

[Bassposeur1]

My favorite.
Michigan Musical
Kevin Powers, 734/242-4914 c734/915-5606
Monroe Michigan North of Toledo.

Decades ago he was the shop foreman for Shilke. He did the custom work for Tuba world.
He made and installed the curved handles on my slides.
He rebuilt an Edwards clearance slide to exchange the brass outers for nickle outers.
I hold up my slide level and blow, the slide moves.
He does machine shop work to make parts and tubing of any size.
He does not charge enough, I always tip him.

Now THAT is a recommendation...