354 Repair

[olivegreenink]

Hi all. Not what I thought my first “real” post would be:

So after buying and selling a ga-gillion horns over the years (like many of you), I finally picked up my first Yamaha of any shape. I grabbed a 354 off eBay to pal around with that looked to be in great shape. And it may have been, but the seller clearly has no experience shipping instruments. No need to go into it - thankfully it was from the wooden case days and not the plastic case days. The result Is either before they sold it or after they shipped it the slides got enough out of alignment that the inner slide makes a nice loud clicking sound when returning to first position. Seems to be knocking in only the bottom tube receiver, but FWIW, the top half is a tight tolerance too because the hook of the slide lock almost catches the rim of the outer slide when leaving 1st. Positions 1-3 are sticky, but 4-7 are decent but not superb. No visible damage and the rest of the horn seems super solid. So I’m willing to invest in getting it straightened out even though there are 7000 354s on eBay at any given time.

I reached out to Pete at Baltimore Brass.

But I am curious if there are any independent techs here who could take a stab at it. Then the seller is supposed to do a partial refund based on having a few quotes.

Cheers and thank you. I hope my next post is more low key lol
BO

[BGuttman]

Where are you? Lots of good techs near Baltimore. And Baltimore Brass should be able to do a good job for you.

[olivegreenink]

I’m in Charlotte, NC. Our main local shop is Howren Music, who I worked for in the 90s actually. I’ll give them a call. I have t talked to them in many years, so I don’t know their in-house capabilities. And I also don’t mind supporting a great tech even if I need to ship. but bearing in mind this isn’t an Shires lol

Cheers,
BO

[BGuttman]

You ought to find the guy who repairs for the local school. I'll bet he has a huge pile of 354s waiting for his attention right now.

[olivegreenink]

Thanks Bruce. In Charlotte, that’s going to be one of only two shops unless something has changed. Howren is a good start. But I’d still be very open to connecting with an individual tech here and supporting them if they’re interested.

Cheers,
BO

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I'm in Maryland, so it is not practical for you to bring your horn up here for the repairs......too far away. However, I wanted to let you know there are some inherent problems with the design/construction of the YSL-354 that you might wish to be aware of. When I worked in a shop for a major music retailer, I did repairs on hundreds of the YSL-354 trombones every year, so I got to know these horns very well. Don't lose faith in your new acquisition....I do think that the Yamaha 354 is a great horn, especially when everything is lined up correctly.

The clicking sound sounds like a different issue than what I am explaining. However, the tightness in positions 1-3 could be directly related to the design/construction problems. Here are the design issues:

#1 Many of the Yamaha 354s exit from the factory with a misalignment of the inner versus out slide. I found that about 50% of the horns have an inner slide was 30-40 thousandths of an inch too wide for the outer slide. The result was a slide that got tighter as you got closer to 1st position.

#2 The inner slide brace is silver brazed on the lower-side flange of many 354s. That sucker is not going to move. If you get it hot enough to move it, you are likely burning a hole in the metal.

#3 On many 354s, the inner slide brace is cut to a specific size so that it maxes out on the inside of both flanges...the silver-brazed side (lower) and the movable side (upper). The only way to get the inner slide more narrow is to unsolder/separate the parts at the upper flange, grind down the brace tube the slightest bit and then reassemble.

Hey BO, at least you didn't get a horn with one of those gray-colored modern cases of the early 2000's. Those cases had a rivet on the bottom of the case that created a dent in the slide barrel. Every time the player put the case down with a little bit of quickness or force, it drove the dent further into the slide barrel. Even Yamaha, a very intelligent company, had some stupid things in their instruments and cases that was self-destructive. Don't get me started on the horrible case designs I have seen and all of the damage the cases did to the horns that they were supposed to protect!

[olivegreenink]

Thank you so much for the background Brian. I'll definitely file this away in the mental filing cabinet. BTW, I'm so glad I'm here - I don't think I realized how much I missed having fellow trombone geeks to talk to lol. Love seeing how much I missed out on over the past 10-15 years....and how much I've clearly forgotten in those years.

So here's the skinny....according to the seller, they took it to a local shop to have inspected, play-tested, and supposedly even appraised prior to shipping. It was listed in the auction as being in good playing condition. In my experience as someone having been buying and selling instruments on eBay since the dark ages (back when including images was novel and leaving feedback required emailing the nice folks at eBay with your review and auction number lol), I find it noteworthy (pun intended) when someone actually mentions playability. I am still on the fence about it's condition prior to arriving to me - however, for all intents and purposes they shipped it essentially just in the case. A single layer of bubble warp and then kraft paper around the case. Nothing inside was wrapped or protected - mouthpieces floating around inside. Sigh. Anywho, despite all this I really do like the overall shape of the horn.

FWIW, if I torque/rotate the slide, I can keep it from making any clicking sound. Not sure if that matters - it's definitely the flange of the slide clacking against the inner edge of the the hand brace in 1st.

So I'm operating under the premise that it was in good working order before shipping. I'd like to still give it a shot.....or does it sounds like this might be a lost cause? I've not come to a specific partial refund amount from the seller yet - but they're very clear they are unwilling to agree to a total refund. I always have the option of filing a claim with eBay - but my MO is usually to try to work things out

Cheers and thank you,
BO

[Crazy4Tbone86]

BO,
I cannot diagnose the instrument without seeing it. From your description is sounds like your inner slides might not be centered in the cork barrels (place on the inner slide where the outer slide disappears into when the slide is in 1st position). It also sounds like you need your slide lock adjusted and the width of the inner or outer slide adjusted. Should be very fixable by any decent technician. My recommendation is to stick with the horn and get the adjustments because the next one might be worse!

[CharlieB]

Baltimore Brass is good.
I have also had good work done by The Slide Doctor. He's in Valdosta, GA, a little closer to you.
https://slidedr.com
Either one will be costly relative to the low value of the 354.
The Slide Doctor lists his standard fee on the above link to his site. You may be able to use that number to negotiate with the seller, who you say is open to compromise.

[olivegreenink]

Thank you Charlie.

As an update, I actually heard back from my local shop a little bit ago and that sounds like a go. May be on the higher side with them, but I'm OK to keep it local.

In other news, I had not picked up yet that The Slide Doctor was in Valdosta. I've spent the last 17 year of my (non-playing) career at a massive tech firm. One of our specialties, of all things, is building wastewater treatment plants. I went down there a few years back to do a photo shoot of the grand opening of the Withlacoochee (real name) Water Pollution Control Plant. I just found this article for the first time and that's one of my photos lol. Who knew?

https://www.waterworld.com/wastewater/a ... f-schedule

So maybe The Slide Doctor can now think of me and my 354 every time he flushes :p Unrelated - not sure if anyone has ever been to Valdosta, but by a mile, the smallest commercial airport I've ever been to. The puddle jumper American Air pilot kind of swings by like it's a drive though and you hop on. I think I heard it was something like a small decommissioned Army administrative office that got retrofitted (loosely). No jet bridge, seating for only ~40 people in the whole place and the ticketing agent and TSA baggage person are one and the same.

Cheers,
BO

[CharlieB]

Small world.
In my days as an engineer, I did a big wastewater treatment plant.
Baltimore.
Been to some of those small airports, too. You know you're in for an experience when you look out the terminal window and see the ticket agent/baggage handler loading your baggage into a plane with a tail-dragger wheel.

[Town]

I'm in Maryland, so it is not practical for you to bring your horn up here for the repairs......too far away. However, I wanted to let you know there are some inherent problems with the design/construction of the YSL-354 that you might wish to be aware of. When I worked in a shop for a major music retailer, I did repairs on hundreds of the YSL-354 trombones every year, so I got to know these horns very well. Don't lose faith in your new acquisition....I do think that the Yamaha 354 is a great horn, especially when everything is lined up correctly.

The clicking sound sounds like a different issue than what I am explaining. However, the tightness in positions 1-3 could be directly related to the design/construction problems. Here are the design issues:

#1 Many of the Yamaha 354s exit from the factory with a misalignment of the inner versus out slide. I found that about 50% of the horns have an inner slide was 30-40 thousandths of an inch too wide for the outer slide. The result was a slide that got tighter as you got closer to 1st position.

#2 The inner slide brace is silver brazed on the lower-side flange of many 354s. That sucker is not going to move. If you get it hot enough to move it, you are likely burning a hole in the metal.

#3 On many 354s, the inner slide brace is cut to a specific size so that it maxes out on the inside of both flanges...the silver-brazed side (lower) and the movable side (upper). The only way to get the inner slide more narrow is to unsolder/separate the parts at the upper flange, grind down the brace tube the slightest bit and then reassemble.

Hey BO, at least you didn't get a horn with one of those gray-colored modern cases of the early 2000's. Those cases had a rivet on the bottom of the case that created a dent in the slide barrel. Every time the player put the case down with a little bit of quickness or force, it drove the dent further into the slide barrel. Even Yamaha, a very intelligent company, had some stupid things in their instruments and cases that was self-destructive. Don't get me started on the horrible case designs I have seen and all of the damage the cases did to the horns that they were supposed to protect!

I hope it's ok to revive an oldish thread, but my question is 354 slide repair related.

I have an early model 354 (flared braces), the slide is in poor condition. Will 354E spare parts work with the existing older 354 slide, like the slide crook or outer tubes? Could I replace the full outer slide or replace the full slide and keep the bell?

Thanks for any advice in advance.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

From what I understand, the slide parts on the YSL-354E (European model) are probably identical to the American YSL-354. So it should work. However, for optimal performance, every trombone slide should be checked and adjusted so that all parts are straight, parallel and the inner slide is perfectly fit (centered) for the outer slide. The chances that the inner/outer slide parts can just be exchanged and magically align perfectly are rather slim!

[Town]

Thanks for the info, it should be possible to save the slide so.

I wouldn't attempt anything with the slide myself, I would ask a tech to put it together.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

Just keep in mind two things when dealing with YSL-354 alignments:

1. The bottom flange on the inner slide is probably high-temperature brazed to the brace tube, it will not move if you try to make adjust it.

2. The brace tube on the inner slide is precut to a specific length so that the tube will bottom out inside the flange attached to the top cork barrel. If a little too much solder gets in there at the factory, the inner slide will be too wide. Fixing this problem requires removing the top inner slide from the brace tube, grinding down the brace tube a little bit and then resoldering the top inner slide on the tube with the correct width. Fixing the inner slide width is much more involved on those YSL-354 horns when compared to most other trombones.

[Town]

Great advice. I'll pass it onto him when I'm getting the job done. Thanks Brian.