Low note challenges, bass trombone

[Macbone1]

I'm a tenor guy who doubles on a single valve bass. I enjoy it just fine until it's time for a loud/long, loud-repeated low Db or C. Those notes want to back up on the attacks instead of project right out, and the amount of air required for those notes (once started) seems to be about twice as much as the D just above. Anybody have any ideas?

[BGuttman]

You getting the slide out far enough, Mac? Low C is normally right at the end of the stockings, even on a Conn bass (like the 72H) and Db is almost as far as 6th on the straight horn.

I got much better response on the outer trigger positions with long tones and the arpeggiated rangebuilding exercise (Remington #8). It's a real challenge to do that arpeggio out in T5 or T6.

I would hope you are using a 2G or 1 1/2 G sized mouthpiece. Too big can have problems, too.

[Burgerbob]

Couple things to check:

1. make sure everything is lubed and working correctly, spit valve etc

2. that range requires more air, but it also needs to be slower. If you try to force it a bit fast, the horn will back up and feel stuffier.

3. That range still requires chop engagement. If you are too open at the aperture, it's much more difficult and inefficient to start and sustain notes.

[baileyman]

Check the timing of the tongue release vs air pulse.

[imsevimse]

Another doubler here that also uses singles a lot.

There is no simple answer to this one. First you need to decide how to tune your F-valve. There are two different ways, at least.

This that Burgerbob wrote is also very important

3. That range still requires chop engagement. If you are too open at the aperture, it's much more difficult and inefficient to start and sustain notes.

When that problem and tuning desicion is set it is possible to give advice on how far you need to move the handslide and what to expect.

First is how to tune the horn on the f-side.

Important! When I use the straight horn positions as references in my post below it has to do with how I tune the straight horn in general. You have to consider this when you read anyonce advice here on where to find the notes on the instrument.

I play with my main tuningslide in a closed position which means I play all notes on the straight horn as "long positions". "Long positions" is something you can look up elsewhere and was something that Urbie Grean advocated among others. Many players tune the straight horn like this and that way of tuning (for me) means I barely have a 7th position to play a low b on the 7th position. It is the main drawback but how often is that note needed on a straight horn? Not very often, especially not on first and second bone parts. It is there but just as the slide falls off and I have to stretch to really reach and I probably bend the note to make that b intune in some cases when the passage is faster.

Okay now when the conditions are set lets go on to the question of how to tune and find the Db and C on the trigger.

There are a couple of common tunings of the f-valve.

First alternative:
You tune F (T1) right at the bumper. This is how I usually tune. This gives me a c a bit off the bumper and the low Db (T5) on a position just below the straight 6:th position. The low C (T6) is on most horns I own beyond the end of the hand-slide with this tuning, because the hand-slide is not long enough. Good is the low note C can easily be bent in tune wich makes It possible to flatten it enough with the lips and get it at the very end of the slide. In most cases this can be done without problem but when the note is more exposed this does not quite work for me. A couple of exceptions of trombones that I found are built in a way they do "own" that C just at the tip of the slide is the Holton Tr-183 and the Conn 70-h. It must be something about how these horns are built, but I have no other single basses like these to have both a F on first and a C on the very tip of the slide. One thing that enables this is they have longer slides than other modern horns but it can not be the whole truth.
To check were those Db an C need to be on your horn you can always play them up an octave with the valve. That often reveals that the slide is not long enough for the c on T6 and that you have to lip them down to make them intune.

Second alternative:
You tune the c at the bumper on T1. With this tuning you have no F on (T1) unless you can bend the F up. To me that does not really work so I just accept I have no F on T1 and remember to play F on regular 6th if I tune like this. The C on T6 will be at the very end of the slide and the Db will be just a little shorter than a regular 6th position for me.

Third alternative:
This is E-tuning. I will not get into this, but I use it a lot with my single basses.

Fourth alternative:
Factitous notes. I will not get into that either but I use them with success under certain conditions. Seems to be a forgotten artform among bass trombonists, even professionals. It is understandable because they do not need them after they got that second valve, but as a single player and doubler they can be pretty handy.

/Tom

[hyperbolica]

I'm a tenor guy who doubles on a single valve bass. I enjoy it just fine until it's time for a loud/long, loud-repeated low Db or C. Those notes want to back up on the attacks instead of project right out, and the amount of air required for those notes (once started) seems to be about twice as much as the D just above. Anybody have any ideas?

Another doubler here. Bass bone is a completely different instrument in some respects, especially breathing and air. The thing that has helped my bass bone playing the most has been tuba playing, because it forces you to open up the air way (back of throat). The speed of the air itself I don't think makes any difference, but to slow it down, you need a bigger cross section, (slower speed for the same amount of air), and the open airway is what matters for resonance. So it achieves the same thing. It's a lot of air. You have to breathe more and sometimes quit notes earlier to get a breath in time.

One thing you can practice on tenor that helps with bass is air attacks. Using less tongue and more "ha" right up front helps get the note started without explosions or harsh articulation.

[ArbanRubank]

Couple things to check:

1. make sure everything is lubed and working correctly, spit valve etc

2. that range requires more air, but it also needs to be slower. If you try to force it a bit fast, the horn will back up and feel stuffier.

3. That range still requires chop engagement. If you are too open at the aperture, it's much more difficult and inefficient to start and sustain notes.

#1 & 2.

#3.

[Macbone1]

Thank you everyone. I do have this instrument tuned correctly though it really wants to have a sharp low C. I use a 1.25G. Basically I have to almost dump the slide off the end for that note to be in tune.
That's really not the issue so much as getting those 2 low notes to respond more like the ones above them. There's some good advice here which I will implement going forward.

[Doug Elliott]

There is an embouchure issue worth considering. Reaching the end of the slide usually involves pulling the horn to the right. If your low range really needs to be more to the left you're not doing yourself any favors. Some players really need to reach across their body to the left for low notes to speak well.

I'm not diagnosing a problem. Only mentioning it as a possibility.

[GabrielRice]

There is an embouchure issue worth considering. Reaching the end of the slide usually involves pulling the horn to the right. If your low range really needs to be more to the left you're not doing yourself any favors. Some players really need to reach across their body to the left for low notes to speak well.

I'm not diagnosing a problem. Only mentioning it as a possibility.

This is true for me. My low range is a little to the left, so I have to turn my head just a little to the right if I'm going to reach for a low C at the end of the slide and get a good tone.

My life would be easier if it were the other way...but ya gotta work with what ya got.

[harrisonreed]

4bb10870-5ea2-4530-9c9d-4c10c453e1be.png

I used this solution on my Yamaha, which played like a dog, for a similar problem. Not saying I'm proud. But it works. I also dampened near the bell flange.

Messing with dampening the bell will add perceivable resistance and notes will speak more easily.

[ArbanRubank]

...Messing with dampening the bell will add perceivable resistance and notes will speak more easily.

I agree, based upon the observation that low trigger notes on my Yamaha speak much easier with a Nepus mute. It's okay for what I do, but may be an unworkable solution for what others do.

[imsevimse]

There is an embouchure issue worth considering. Reaching the end of the slide usually involves pulling the horn to the right. If your low range really needs to be more to the left you're not doing yourself any favors. Some players really need to reach across their body to the left for low notes to speak well.

I'm not diagnosing a problem. Only mentioning it as a possibility.

This is true for me. My low range is a little to the left, so I have to turn my head just a little to the right if I'm going to reach for a low C at the end of the slide and get a good tone.

My life would be easier if it were the other way...but ya gotta work with what ya got.

That's me. I go right to get the low notes better, and that correlates with the movement I need to do to reach. ONE lucky coincidence.

/Tom

[Macbone1]

There is an embouchure issue worth considering. Reaching the end of the slide usually involves pulling the horn to the right. If your low range really needs to be more to the left you're not doing yourself any favors. Some players really need to reach across their body to the left for low notes to speak well.

I'm not diagnosing a problem. Only mentioning it as a possibility.

Good point Doug, but I have arms like an orangutan so not an issue. Check that one off anyway...

[Macbone1]

4bb10870-5ea2-4530-9c9d-4c10c453e1be.png

I used this solution on my Yamaha, which played like a dog, for a similar problem. Not saying I'm proud. But it works. I also dampened near the bell flange.

Messing with dampening the bell will add perceivable resistance and notes will speak more easily.

Where can I shop for one of those??

[robcat2075]

I used this solution on my Yamaha,

What is that? Duct tape?

[JoeStanko]

I used this solution on my Yamaha,

What is that? Duct tape?

Yes, that's duct tape. I was studying with Mr. Harwood at the time. A friend and colleague had a bell cut using an Alexander french horn ring. I had done the same on my instrument - instead of cutting, duct tape was applied at different areas on the bell to evaluate the differences. Warren Deck, who is a very experience technician, made various diameter metal rings that were greased and used inside his tuba bell that had different insertion depths.

[blast]

First, back when people were putting tape on their bells, it was mostly about trying to get the sound to hold together at silly dynamics. Just makes it dead...that's why it went out of fashion.
Second , the Besson is not the best ever bassbone and may not be helping.
Third, getting the low notes to work...either buy a megabucket mouthpiece, get the low notes and work at everything else, or stick with your mouthpiece and try using less air, let the face close up a bit and work for elasticity of the lip tissue...that's the real grail. Most folk will go for the big mouthpiece.
Joe just put a context on the duct tape. The metal, whether as a screw bell or a metal ring is a whole different thing and can be very interesting.
Chris

[robcat2075]

I'll have to take your word for it! I would be curious to witness an A/B of this modification.

If a piece of duct tape on the bell produces a seriously noticeable result I would expect that I could hold my horn in 1st position with my right hand and grab the bell with my left hand and hear substantial changes as the hand damped the vibration of the bell in different places.

And yet, when I have tried this, after previous discussions of damping or weighting the bell in some manner, I don't notice anything notable.

I even have one of those brass Amrein "tone rings" that fits on the bell. It changes nothing!

[harrisonreed]

So, yes, indeed that is duct tape. For my bass, I cut one of those soft foam/rubber drawer mats (that keeps stuff from flying around when you open the drawer) to size, and cinched that down around bell with electrician's tape, rather than just applying tape directly to the finish of the horn (yikes). I did it TIGHT. Then I evaluated the difference. It took a try or two, but the low notes were significantly easier to sustain and were louder with the bell taped. I then tried adding a bit more near the bell flange, and again, more resistance, more sound for the air I was putting in. These results are not out of line with what happens when you add screw bell rings, amrein rings, and lindberg resistance balancers.

I'm not trying to defend it, well, not much anyways. The sound changes a little, but I don't think it becomes "dead". If anything it gets snappier and you get more core and less overtones. Maybe that is what dead means.

It would be way better to just have a horn/mouthpiece combo and the technique to play low notes easily. In the case of my Yamaha bass, neither I nor my bass trombonist colleague could get the thing to blow right, and we went crazy looking for leaks (it was brand new...). Now you can pick it up and it works -- at the end of the day, what can you do?

If you look at Don Harwood, one of the best bass trombonists of all time, he was not above experimenting or looking dopey as heck with duct tape on his bell. Based on the story above, he too was trying something out in his pursuit of excellence. He was not alone:



Sounds pretty good to me. That's all I got though. The technique has to be there first. Dumb solutions like this aren't a starting point.

[Macbone1]

Well, Besson may not be the best, but it has the best looking silver plating I was concerned about slide compression but Osmun Music said the horn was OK. The valve is excellent. The main challenge is not so much the lung capacity for low Cs but the clean execution of said low notes, esp when repeated. A repeated pattern has me lagging the beat/fading fast after a couple of bars, esp. if accented.

[hyperbolica]

People have used tape to tame hyper-resonant tenors. 88h has an F# that's out of control. A little extra weight in the bell avoids that uncomfortable resonance.

[jorymil]

This is an interesting question! Sure, the answer could be that it's just you, but let's assume it's something peculiar with the player/horn/mouthpiece system. Variables:
* The horn: can you try another bass out at Osmun and see if you have the same problem when using your 1 1/4 G?
* The mouthpiece: can you try out some other mouthpieces, both larger and smaller in cup volume?
* The player: do others have similar issues on your horn?

It's entirely possible that there's nothing wrong with the horn, the mouthpiece, or you, but there's something in the combination thereof that's inhibiting resonance at those two particular frequencies.

Another question: do you run into similar issues up a partial with Ab and G?

Also curious: if you glissando down past D, at what tuner frequency do you notice the drop in resonance? If you can get a full E pull, do things begin to resonate better again below C?

John

[Doug Elliott]

My impression has always been that those particular notes are at least somewhat of a problem for nearly everybody on nearly any equipment.

[Macbone1]

Thanks very much everyone, l found value in every one of these suggestions. I started trying some of them out and I am already noticing some improvement.

[bellend]

As someone who has dabbled with doubling bass trombone, the best exercise I found for improving the tiger notes was this on from Alan Raph which is also the first one in his method book.
Here is a video of him demostrating it and although he is clearly not quite 'Match Fit' you get the gist of it.



Obviously the exercise is played without the breaks where he's talking and if played everyday is great for getting things going better.

BellEnd

[blast]

I should try and be helpful after being grumpy about duct/duck tape. I get my students to gliss from the register that works into the problem area that they are not happy with. Connecting is so important. Then work for refinement.

[bassclef]

As someone who has dabbled with doubling bass trombone, the best exercise I found for improving the tiger notes was this on from Alan Raph which is also the first one in his method book.
Here is a video of him demostrating it and although he is clearly not quite 'Match Fit' you get the gist of it.



Obviously the exercise is played without the breaks where he's talking and if played everyday is great for getting things going better.

BellEnd

Once upon a time I used that exercise to solve some problems I was having during an embouchure change, and still revisit it when it creeps back in.

Intensely boring, but incredibly effective if you can commit to it.

[Macbone1]

Nice! Thanks. Some of us had lunch with Alan once, back in my military band days. Super individual and very smart.

[Wilco]

My mental trick is to think you are going to play an octave higher. This works for me personally.

[Backbone]

Third, getting the low notes to work...either buy a megabucket mouthpiece, get the low notes and work at everything else, or stick with your mouthpiece and try using less air, let the face close up a bit and work for elasticity of the lip tissue...that's the real grail. Most folk will go for the big mouthpiece.

Chris

Great post! I'd add that getting a megabucket mouthpiece only works for a little while in my experience. I tried this avenue and found that I quickly was sounding bad in the low range all over again with the added challenge of making everything else work as well. I ended up back on a 1 1/2g sized piece and have had much better results all over the range of the horn.

I particularly like the "try using less air, let the face close up a bit and work for elasticity of the lip tissue" part of it. The problem is this takes patience and time. Sometimes when playing with a group, you can feel inadequate because you are not blasting out those low C's like you'd like to so it can be easy to switch mouthpieces. I am glad I chose the smaller piece.

[blast]

Third, getting the low notes to work...either buy a megabucket mouthpiece, get the low notes and work at everything else, or stick with your mouthpiece and try using less air, let the face close up a bit and work for elasticity of the lip tissue...that's the real grail. Most folk will go for the big mouthpiece.

Chris

Great post! I'd add that getting a megabucket mouthpiece only works for a little while in my experience. I tried this avenue and found that I quickly was sounding bad in the low range all over again with the added challenge of making everything else work as well. I ended up back on a 1 1/2g sized piece and have had much better results all over the range of the horn.

I particularly like the "try using less air, let the face close up a bit and work for elasticity of the lip tissue" part of it. The problem is this takes patience and time. Sometimes when playing with a group, you can feel inadequate because you are not blasting out those low C's like you'd like to so it can be easy to switch mouthpieces. I am glad I chose the smaller piece.

I love that you get it !!!