King Slide Compatibility

Post by **Matt K** » Fri Mar 04, 2022 10:58 am

I'm copying this info from something Klimchak posted a few days ago because I've frequently wanted to know this info

2B/Jiggs/old single bore Liberty/605/older tempo with 7.5” nickel [plated] bell are compatible

3B/2B+/606/Benge 170/Tempo with 8” nickel bell are compatible

3B+/607/608/609/Benge 160,175 are compatible

4B/5B/Benge 165 and 190 are compatible

Going ahead and stickying this here. Just dawned on me it might be a good idea to do this for other manfuacturers too (such as how Bach 42 and 50 slides may work with Edwards bells, etc.)

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:56 pm

To the 4B/5B/Benge 165 and 190 add 6B(Duo Gravis) and 7B.

afugate · Post by **afugate** » Fri Mar 04, 2022 1:18 pm

To the 2B sizes add the Cleveland Superior. (I swapped my 2B bell with a Superior and love sound of the bigger throat.)

--Andy in OKC

jorymil · Post by **jorymil** » Fri Mar 04, 2022 2:51 pm

To the 3B/606 sizes, add the Bach (yes, you read that right!) Liberty. Conn-Selmer must have been doing some experimenting in the early days of the merger, and put out a Bach-stamped horn with a King-style bell tenon and nut. Classic Bach-style dual-radius slide; all nickel-silver.

Not all Bach Liberty horns have the slide-side nut, but those that do use the same nut/tenon/receiver as a King 606.

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Fri Jun 03, 2022 12:54 pm

Kingfan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 04, 2022 12:56 pm To the 4B/5B/Benge 165 and 190 add 6B(Duo Gravis) and 7B.

The King bass trombone tapered slide tenon (from models 6B, 7B and 8B) does not fit very well in the bell section slide receiver of the King 4B/5B and/or Benge 165/190. Yes it will “sort of” do a friction fit, but the bass trombone male connector it is a bit too large. The threading would probably only connect if either/both parts were extremely worn.

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:29 pm

I just did a test with my 4B and 7B. The 4B slide fit into the 7B very well, and once the nut was tightened seemed very playable. The 7B slide fit into the 4B but the tenon ring was quite a bit further from the receiver but it was close enough to get enough threads to engage with the receiver nut and be playable. I didn't live test either one, but once I get my chops back (I had surgery recently) I can do a full play test if anybody is interested.

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:38 pm

The 7B slide on the 4b simulates Jay Friedman's Bach setup (50 slide on a 42).

Crazy4Tbone86 · Post by **Crazy4Tbone86** » Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:33 pm

I have a 7B slide tenon male part that I bought about 10 years ago for a customer project that was canceled. It definitely does not fit in the King 4B and 5Bs that have come through the shop……I have tried it on many of them. Maybe there are different compatibilities for different vintages? Better yet, possibly the part that was sent to me is not a 7B tenon?

CalgaryTbone · Post by **CalgaryTbone** » Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:42 pm

I have a friend who used a 4B bell on an 88H slide (press fit) for a while. His 88H bell needed some repairs, and he didn't have a spare horn - someone loaned him the 4B to use. While experimenting with the King, he discovered that the bell would fit on the Conn slide, but you had to treat it as a "press fit' since the bell nut is on the bell for the Conn and on the slide for the King. It worked pretty well for him, but he went back to his regular equipment once the repairs were done.

Jim Scott

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:39 pm

Is there a thread for Yamaha slide compatibility?

Post by **Matt K** » Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:45 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:39 pm Is there a thread for Yamaha slide compatibility?

There is now
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27866

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:06 pm

Thanks. I'm starting to get interested in some of the odd Yamaha stuff, like the Japan only models. So far 455 is a straight 500/525 (like a 356 without the valve) and the 353 looks similar to the 354.

Post by **Matt K** » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:17 pm

There’s also a straight 356 iirc. I ordered those parts to have a straight section awhile ago.

MrHCinDE · Post by **MrHCinDE** » Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:20 am

My Besson 737 bell is compatible with my 3B+ hand slide

(also the tuning slide)

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:11 pm

Wow - I am glad I read this thread. I have owned *many* 4Bs, 5Bs, and Duo Gravi but have never swapped slides! Even though I have swapped lots of small King slides as well as my numerous Bach 16 & 16M's.

I have a Benge 190F, a 1963 King 1480 ("pre-5B"), and a King 1485 Silver Sonic. All slides are perfectly swappable and all combinations play great!

Mamaposaune · Post by **Mamaposaune** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:52 am

Greenbean, Will a 1480 slide fit a 4B and 5B?
Not sure if I understood your post clearly.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:41 pm

Yes, these horns have swappable slides (confirmed this morning):

--Benge 190F
--1972 King 4B
--1982 King 5B
--1960 HN White King 1485 SS
--1963 HN White King 1480

Their slides are all .547 and have identical dimensions - except for width. All combos played well w/no response or intonation issues. Oh, and the mpc receivers were a bit larger on the 5B/1480/1485. Again, not an issue. I played them this morning with a Marcellus mpc. Such great playing horns!

Post by **Matt K** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:48 pm

Did you happen to check with a tuner? I'm assuming it wasn't a big difference either way, just something to keep in mind when addressing such issues, worth noting for someone who might be wanting to acquire something to slot onto a bell section who might be reading this in the future.

For example, I had a fabulous playing Shires T0825GLW slide that had what I suspect was a Bach 36 tenon on it; slotted onto my Mt. Vernon Bach 9 bell section perfectly. Thought it was going to be my forever setup when I was trying it out at Dillon's. Went to play with some drones. Turns out it was like super, super, super flat. Almost "A" flat. No wonder it sounded so dark & rich! Worked no problem on my Shires bells whe I switched the tenon out!

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:32 pm

I did use a tuner. They were all fine.

blap73 · Post by **blap73** » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:32 pm

Anyone able to check a 606 slide on a 3BF bell section? [edited, I had specified 3B+F]

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:56 pm

Yes, it fits.

2bobone · Post by **2bobone** » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:39 pm

When I was performing in the NSO, the Principal and Associate Principal put Bach 50B slides on their 42B's. I never understood why the Principal player needed to have someone doubling him since he was in the register where he could dominate with no great difficulty, whilst the bass trombone had to take a breath on virtually every note in order to begin to match the power of two tenors in their most comfortable register. When you critically examine the imbalance, you must come up with the assumption that to re-create a new balance, the bass trombonist must increase the size of his equipment even though he already had his back up against a wall ! You finally reach a point of the human capacity to adjust upwards. It is a constant battle to achieve an equitable balance when you are so overpowered by two to one. Does anyone else out there think that to be the case, or am I being too critical ?

blap73 · Post by **blap73** » Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:08 am

seems like thread drift

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Sat Feb 11, 2023 9:47 am

2bobone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:39 pm When I was performing in the NSO, the Principal and Associate Principal put Bach 50B slides on their 42B's. I never understood why the Principal player needed to have someone doubling him since he was in the register where he could dominate with no great difficulty, whilst the bass trombone had to take a breath on virtually every note in order to begin to match the power of two tenors in their most comfortable register. When you critically examine the imbalance, you must come up with the assumption that to re-create a new balance, the bass trombonist must increase the size of his equipment even though he already had his back up against a wall ! You finally reach a point of the human capacity to adjust upwards. It is a constant battle to achieve an equitable balance when you are so overpowered by two to one. Does anyone else out there think that to be the case, or am I being too critical ?

Interesting observation, Bob. Especially since you were that bass trombonist!

But this should probably be in a separate thread ("trombone arms war" or something like that?).

Lots of conversations on this general topic in previous posts on The Trombone Forum and TromboneChat. Seems to have been a trend in (U.S.?) orchestras for at least 60 years; probably more.

2bobone · Post by **2bobone** » Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:35 pm

"But this should probably be in a separate thread ("trombone arms war" or something like that?)."

Apologies. I got caught up with all the slide-swapping !

kitlittekentrombone · Wed May 10, 2023 11:27 am

Does a 2b slide work with a 3b bell section? Im not sure how all this works and I have a 2b but have seen a 3b bell posted online and I think it would be a great purchase, I'm just not sure how all the compatibility works.

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed May 10, 2023 12:11 pm

kitlittekentrombone wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 11:27 am Does a 2b slide work with a 3b bell section? Im not sure how all this works and I have a 2b but have seen a 3b bell posted online and I think it would be a great purchase, I'm just not sure how all the compatibility works.

The 2B slide tenon is smaller than the 3B receiver. You might be able to make them friction fit (no bell nut) with a paper shim on the taper of the 2B slide.

JRmusic · Post by **JRmusic** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:16 pm

Interesting discovery today. I have a 3B bell that I had been using a 606 slide on, and it’s a great combination. I saw a $60 “Tempo” for sale nearby, went and bought it, and when I got home I realized that it’s ACTUALLY a 306, NOT a 606. (I was familiar with 606 “Tempos”) Hmmm- this needs further investigation. It doesn’t say “Made in USA” on the bell, so there’s a clue. Did King have some horns made offshore? Seems like a decent horn, but there are differences- it appears to me to have been made in a separate factory. In any case, the slide doesn’t work well with my 3B bell.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:36 pm

I recently got a King 605F to possibly make a 2B/F out of. Surprise surprise, the 605 slide is 3B compatible, NOT 2B compatible.

Post by **Matt K** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 6:56 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:36 pm I recently got a King 605F to possibly make a 2B/F out of. Surprise surprise, the 605 slide is 3B compatible, NOT 2B compatible.

What's the bore size of your tubing? The local techs measured at... .488" if I remember which is... smaller than the bore size of the slide and I'm wondering if they measured it right but I don't own a pair of calipers. Actually... speaking of...

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:30 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 6:56 pm ... I'm wondering if they measured it right but I don't own a pair of calipers. Actually... speaking of...

Matt,

Decent (not great) digital calipers are available inexpensively at Harbor Freight.

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tool ... 63586.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tool ... 63710.html

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:17 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 6:56 pm

What's the bore size of your tubing? The local techs measured at... .488" if I remember which is... smaller than the bore size of the slide and I'm wondering if they measured it right but I don't own a pair of calipers. Actually... speaking of...

.490 through the valve section. Smol!

Post by **Matt K** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 2:36 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 8:30 pm
Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 6:56 pm ... I'm wondering if they measured it right but I don't own a pair of calipers. Actually... speaking of...
Matt,

Decent (not great) digital calipers are available inexpensively at Harbor Freight.

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tool ... 63586.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tool ... 63710.html

Yeah I just ordered a pair. Kept forgetting to order them for like two years now lol

How does your 605 play? I keep thinking I’m going to sell mine and then it falls through and I end up being glad

JRmusic · Post by **JRmusic** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 7:38 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:36 pm I recently got a King 605F to possibly make a 2B/F out of. Surprise surprise, the 605 slide is 3B compatible, NOT 2B compatible.

Helpful info. Thanks.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:02 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 2:36 am

How does your 605 play? I keep thinking I’m going to sell mine and then it falls through and I end up being glad

Sadly mine was much more banged up than the photos let on, and the valve knuckle has a huge crack, as well as the slide being pretty trashed. I got the crack soldered just to see how it plays and... I haven't played it yet. Oops.

Posaunus · Post by **Posaunus** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:48 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:02 am I got the crack soldered just to see how it plays and... I haven't played it yet. Oops.

Perhaps a consequence of having too many trombones, Aidan?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:23 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:48 am
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:02 am I got the crack soldered just to see how it plays and... I haven't played it yet. Oops.
Perhaps a consequence of having too many trombones, Aidan?

There's a reason I have a PDF of all my horns... I would forget I have them otherwise!

WestTXTBoneGuy73 · Post by **WestTXTBoneGuy73** » Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:09 pm

So would a 606 Bell work with a 3B Slide?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Jul 07, 2023 11:11 pm

WestTXTBoneGuy73 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 8:09 pm So would a 606 Bell work with a 3B Slide?

Based on my sample size of .5, yes... don't take my word for it though.

Klimchak · Post by **Klimchak** » Sat Jul 08, 2023 12:59 am

Yes, a 606 bell fits a 3b slide. I was looking for a straight bell section for my 3bf and ended up trying an old 606 that I started on, but the slide was unusable. Works and sounds great and am not tempted to pursue an actual 3b bell since this works so well.

Aluketich · Post by **Aluketich** » Sun Nov 05, 2023 2:53 pm

Just popped on here to look for a similar answer, but i'm not sure what kind of slide i have. Bell has King 2b Liberty engraved on it with number 661800 and slide (much newer) has a number 6790 on it. Plays nice, but what I really am looking for is value since im looking to purchase this horn from a local retired music director. Thanks

YunoWho · Post by **YunoWho** » Wed Sep 11, 2024 9:41 pm

Hi, not sure this is fully on topic and I'm kind of new to all of this, but I had a question about King and olds. Specifically I was wondering about the king 606 (1916) and Olds Special (1956). They both have the same size bore and I was wondering about swapping the slides? I've found a cheap Olds Special but I'm sure it's slide is dented. I need a temporary fix, so I had the idea to swap the two slides for now? I know it's not ideal and this is kind of like betrayal

Thoughts or suggestions?
I've been using the King 606 as my tenor in school jazz band, but it's not living up to the bands standards, especially compared to my bass (8b duo gravis/71h Conn). That's why I was looking around for a better option for tenor, while still not being too expensive.
I know it's kind of a funky oddball question.
Thank you so much.

Post by **BGuttman** » Wed Sep 11, 2024 11:19 pm

@Aluketich: A King 2B should be compatible with a Tempo 605 slide. Most slides are threaded on the slide side with the nut on the bell side, while the King is the opposite. If all you want to do is play the combo friction fit, a lot of other slides will work.

@YunoWho: There was no King 606 in 1916. Yours has to be much newer. Note that King went from serial 999999 to 100000 so your 606 must be from after the rollover. See my comment above about the bell nut.

ebrenner · Post by **ebrenner** » Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:44 am

Is a 3B+ slide compatible with a 3B bell section?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:47 am

ebrenner wrote: ↑Wed Sep 18, 2024 11:44 am Is a 3B+ slide compatible with a 3B bell section?

No. .525 horns have a larger connector

Slider8000 · Post by **Slider8000** » Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:41 am

Does anyone know if the King 605F tuning slide fits on a King 3BF?

Post by **Matt K** » Wed Oct 16, 2024 6:51 am

Slider8000 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:41 am Does anyone know if the King 605F tuning slide fits on a King 3BF?

No. 605F is actually quite a bit smaller and longer, but also not compatible with the 606, Nickel plated Tempo, or 2B bell sections.

Slider8000 · Post by **Slider8000** » Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:29 pm

I have a mystery. Does anyone know if the 6B slide fits on a 4B?? My early ‘70s 4B has a suspiciously large bore. My teacher thinks it could be a slide from a different king model but when I looked up the dimensions 4B and 5B slides are the same (.547). My slide is not a dual bore, so it is supposed to be .547 . However, the mouthpiece receiver is so much larger than my .547 gen II Conn 88H which is really confusing and seems like a bass trombone. Anyone have any thoughts?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:43 pm

Slider8000 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:29 pm I have a mystery. Does anyone know if the 6B slide fits on a 4B?? My early ‘70s 4B has a suspiciously large bore. My teacher thinks it could be a slide from a different king model but when I looked up the dimensions 4B and 5B slides are the same (.547). My slide is not a dual bore, so it is supposed to be .547 . However, the mouthpiece receiver is so much larger than my .547 gen II Conn 88H which is really confusing and seems like a bass trombone. Anyone have any thoughts?

Kings have a weird receiver, it can fit modern large shanks very deep. In any case, the receiver of an instrument doesn't really mean much about its bore size- they are nominally the same on every large shank instrument, barring things like Remington receivers or the King shank (which are still close).

Mamaposaune · Post by **Mamaposaune** » Sat Nov 09, 2024 7:45 am

Does anyone know if a 3B slide will fit on a Selmer Bolero bell?