Single valve bass project

[jsmithtrombone]

Hi all!

I was a pretty active member on TTF back in the mid 2000s, but then graduate school and life took over. I've lurked for a little while now, but figured I'd make my return official and make an account.

For a few years I've thought about building a single-valve bass. With my current equipment, I have two complete basses - a Getzen 3062 and a Getzen 1062, and they're both set-up with interchangeable bell sections and screw bells. I also have a spare Edwards bell that fits those valve sections, along with a spare tuning slide and spare main slide. (All told I have 3 bells, 3 tuning slides, 3 main slides, and 2 valve sections.)

It's kind of hard to get an idea of what pricing would be like to have a single valve section built for this stuff. I'd like to keep it compatible with what I already have, so Getzen/Conn slide connectors, Getzen/Edwards tuning slide-compatible, and Getzen (not Edwards) bell spacing. I'm fine sourcing used parts, if it'll help keep costs down. This horn is likely to be a passion project more than anything else.

As far as a valve choice goes, I suppose I'd like to stick with an Axial valve, but I'm not married to that idea.

For a valve wrap, I've always really liked the Shires-Morandini/Thein valve wrap where it doesn't go past the main tuning slide, like this: https://thein-brass.de/en/instrument/b-v-d/ (minus the second valve, obviously)

Sorry for the long post. I know I'm in over my head here. I want to keep costs down, while building something entirely custom, with some fairly big caveats. That's why it's a passion project!

Anyone have any thoughts/advice on this?

[Matt K]

Very generically, a new valve is going to cost around what you can get a single valve tenor for, which at the moment is somewhere in the ballpark of $1600 to $2200. You can definitely reduce costs by getting used parts, but a lot of the cost is the labor.

Getting existing parts that are already assembled may reduce costs too. Since you already have two thayer setups, another potential option would be to remove the 2nd thayer from one of the valves. Edwards actually makes a ~$400 part that converts their horns to a single valve that probably wouldn't take much finagling by a tech to work with your current horns.

[jsmithtrombone]

Very generically, a new valve is going to cost around what you can get a single valve tenor for, which at the moment is somewhere in the ballpark of $1600 to $2200. You can definitely reduce costs by getting used parts, but a lot of the cost is the labor.

Getting existing parts that are already assembled may reduce costs too. Since you already have two thayer setups, another potential option would be to remove the 2nd thayer from one of the valves. Edwards actually makes a ~$400 part that converts their horns to a single valve that probably wouldn't take much finagling by a tech to work with your current horns.

Yeah, I had considered the adapter, but I like the idea of having 3 complete horns instead of 2.5 horns.

And unfortunately, I only have one Thayer horn. My second bass is a Getzen 1062, so it has rotors. (In retrospect I kind of regret this purchase, but I was really desperate to have a back-up bass, and I wanted a Getzen for compatibility with my main horn, the 3062. I would have preferred a 1052, but the price was right and the need was dire enough.)

I know it's a long shot of a project, and that's why I'm okay waiting on it. I'm holding out hope, though!

I also know I could probably find a used Conn single-valve bass for less than this project will likely cost me...and it's something I have considered, but again, I'm holding out hope for this project!

[elmsandr]

So, you could source a valve and all the wrap parts from Instrument Innovations. You could go rotor or axial; whichever makes you happier.

Find a tech who will assemble it; you'll need a tech for the next bit anyway; have them order a handslide receiver, neckpipe, and the inner tuning slide from Getzen. Much easier for a tech to get from them than you as a person (they prefer NAPBIRT members).

For a single valve, I'd go for the same neckpipe part as your 1062.. I prefer that straight look to the S curves of a lot of aftermarket axial installations.

Pretty straight forward, but finding used single valve bass sections can be difficult. Easier to find the horns as you noted.

Cheers,
Andy

[Matt K]

Ah, gotcha!

If you like the Thayer, you can get a lot of the parts from Instrument Innovations for a new setup, as Andy mentioned. The "German style" wrap that Thein has is probably possible with their parts too. They post their prices so you can get a ball park for how much the parts will cost. You might also want to consider their rotor or some of the other "improved" rotors such as the Rotax, Caidex, etc. However, import prices are pretty high right now so those won't be cheap. Incidentally, Hagmann actually sells the wrap you are talking about as a Kit, but Hagmann are really expensive so if you are going for budget you probably won't be happy with the final price tag!

Another option that you might not find satisfying given that you aren't a fan of the way the 1062 works, but nonetheless will potentially make your budget happier is to get an existing single valve as you mentioned and have it modified. The Yamaha YBL421G may be a good candidate to look out for. I think the receiver may even work w/o modification (do not rely on this assumption though) so "all" your tech would need to do is get a tuning slide receiver and figure out a way to make the "semi-open" wrap compatible with the way you are connecting your bell. That "should" be way cheaper than the price I mentioned if you can get the valve for a good price.

One final thought is most bass valves are >.580", usually as big as .593. Tenors are .562 in the valve section. However, some trombones have valves that are the same size as the inner slide, or much closer (King 3BF+ is a 525 slide with 530 rotor; some large bore Hagmann trombones are .547 slide and .547 valve, the King 6B is a .562 slide with a .562 rotor). Since you're going for a single valve, something you might want to consider is what type of playing you'll be doing with the single valve. If you want something a litle more "compact" or just different... you might consider this bore size instead. This will give you WAY more used options since basically all tenors are .562 valves in some capacity. You should be able to get the necessary parts from Getzen to convert to your setup, which may just be the neckpipe and tuning slide receiver... maybe the slide receiver, and everything else would just be "as-is".

[Burgerbob]

The "German style" wrap that Thein has is probably possible with their parts too.



One final thought is most bass valves are >.580", usually as big as .593.

I don't think the Morandini wrap would be possible without a ton of really custom bends and a lot of work from a tech.

I would also stick with a .593 valve, or there will be some massive steps up to the gooseneck (or massive steps up to the lower tuning slide leg, which is already huge). Also, both of OPs slides are probably .562/.578, which would be another step down from the lower slide tube.

[Matt K]

Oh duh, I forgot the **62 Getzens are 562/578. Yeah, that is definitely not a great idea for those slides.

I think you might be surprised what II has to offer these days as far as bends go though. For example, they have a narrow, 2.3" U shaped one in .594 inner and a ton of varying degree bends. I wouldn't give the project to someone who "just" does band repair, but I imagine someone who has made valves before should be able to get you the last leg from the lower "U" shape to the valve.

[jsmithtrombone]

Thanks for all of the replies. I’ll hop in to clarify something - the slide I’d be using with this build is a single bore .562 slide. I have two of them, one in the 1062 and one unused. (I had been using it in the 3062 for a few years but I’ve moved to the dualbore for now.) For a while now I’ve wanted to have the oversleeves taken off and make it lightweight, and this would be an opportune horn to match that with.

One hypothetical I’ve considered is, what if I’m able to find a Getzen tenor valve section, like the 3047? Would it be possible/feasible to alter the tuning slide receiver to accept bass tuning slides? Everything else would probably fit - the slide receiver, the bell receivers, etc. The 3047 Thayer would probably be big enough for what I’m looking to do with this horn, and I could live with the normal valve wrap. (Of course this assumes it’ll be easier to find one of these valve sections…)

Keep the feedback coming!

[Burgerbob]

One hypothetical I’ve considered is, what if I’m able to find a Getzen tenor valve section, like the 3047? Would it be possible/feasible to alter the tuning slide receiver to accept bass tuning slides? Everything else would probably fit - the slide receiver, the bell receivers, etc. The 3047 Thayer would probably be big enough for what I’m looking to do with this horn, and I could live with the normal valve wrap. (Of course this assumes it’ll be easier to find one of these valve sections…)

Keep the feedback coming!

Getzen/Edwards basses are very, very big in the tuning slide starting at the lower leg. I think using a smaller valve would mean a really massive step between the valve and that area.

[jsmithtrombone]

So, you could source a valve and all the wrap parts from Instrument Innovations. You could go rotor or axial; whichever makes you happier.

Pretty straight forward, but finding used single valve bass sections can be difficult. Easier to find the horns as you noted.

Cheers,
Andy

Thanks for chiming in. I think we emailed a few times about this very topic several years ago. Clearly I never made any progress on it!

Getzen/Edwards basses are very, very big in the tuning slide starting at the lower leg. I think using a smaller valve would mean a really massive step between the valve and that area.

Yeah, this was my worry. Oh well. Thanks for chiming in.

[Matt K]

I’m not sure if that step would be a big deal or not. Think about a single bore Edwards with in-line Thayers. You have a 562 in the slide tenon and within about 2-3” you have to be at a .593 because the Thayer valve has to be that size. Then there is no taper whatsoever until the tip of the 2nd Thayer valve and essentially no additional taper because it’s so long. You go straight into the tuning slide receiver, which I presume starts another taper before being fed into the tuning slide.

If you had a 562 valve, you wouldn’t have any taper (unless the slide tenon was tapered, but I’ll presume it isn’t temporarily). It goes into a valve of the same bore size. Let’s say it’s a rotor because it’s a little shorter and can fit a little more additional taper. After the rotor, you then have what 5-6” to expand to .593, right? I’ll have to measure when I get out of bed. As king as you end up at the same bore at the top of the neckpipe, I suspect it should work no problem. So you have, as far as I can tell, a more gradual taper that has less drastic jump in bore size and more time to do the jump.

That said, I might be missing something about that and I’m not convinced it’s a good idea. It’s on my personal bucket list of things to eventually do though. I had a really good dependent tenor section that I thought about switching out for a bass rotor but I quite like the independent instrument innovations ones I have so I’m in no hurry to try to optimize my bass setup at the moment and I’m a little hooked on the g valve. The things I’d use a bass for that if want something a single valve can do are also all things I’d love to have a g valve on because they would be a little higher tessitura

[Matt K]

Sorry one more thought. Oddly enough, all the Jupiter trombones that have thayers are .571 bore valves. At least that’s what Ben Hanson (sorry Ben autocorrect won’t let me spell your name right) measured a few years ago. That’s the basses and the tenors. Jupiter aren’t exactly know for the highest quality product but you might be able to find a tenor in good shape and use it as a donor horn although I’m not sure if the extra .009” would really make that much of a difference.

[jsmithtrombone]

I’m not sure if that step would be a big deal or not. Think about a single bore Edwards with in-line Thayers. You have a 562 in the slide tenon and within about 2-3” you have to be at a .593 because the Thayer valve has to be that size. Then there is no taper whatsoever until the tip of the 2nd Thayer valve and essentially no additional taper because it’s so long. You go straight into the tuning slide receiver, which I presume starts another taper before being fed into the tuning slide.

If you had a 562 valve, you wouldn’t have any taper (unless the slide tenon was tapered, but I’ll presume it isn’t temporarily). It goes into a valve of the same bore size. Let’s say it’s a rotor because it’s a little shorter and can fit a little more additional taper. After the rotor, you then have what 5-6” to expand to .593, right? I’ll have to measure when I get out of bed. As king as you end up at the same bore at the top of the neckpipe, I suspect it should work no problem. So you have, as far as I can tell, a more gradual taper that has less drastic jump in bore size and more time to do the jump.

That said, I might be missing something about that and I’m not convinced it’s a good idea. It’s on my personal bucket list of things to eventually do though. I had a really good dependent tenor section that I thought about switching out for a bass rotor but I quite like the independent instrument innovations ones I have so I’m in no hurry to try to optimize my bass setup at the moment and I’m a little hooked on the g valve. The things I’d use a bass for that if want something a single valve can do are also all things I’d love to have a g valve on because they would be a little higher tessitura

I think we exchanged emails a few years back about your dependent tenor. What happened with that?

I'll keep looking at my options. Instrument Innovations mixed with Andrew's suggestion of buying some parts directly from Getzen via a NAPBIRT tech seems like the way I'll end up having to go. Too much Frankenhorn-ing is a bit worrisome to me. I can live with it being a normal open valve wrap if the Morandini-style isn't an option in my price range. I'd rather I get this right than rush to something I'll regret. I've done that before (with my 1062) and for a horn that'll have more sentimental than practical value, I'd like to spare myself the trouble.

Please keep the feedback coming!

[octavposaune]

Jupiters a while back had one bore aluminum axial rotor, not the valve tubing. So a bass with .593 tubing and a small .571 rotor, and a tenor with .562 tubing and s .571 rotor. They may have fixed this, I haven"t examined modern XOs, but it was this way 10yo when they introduced Axials on their horns (before the XO line was "spun off").

[jsmithtrombone]

Jupiters a while back had one bore aluminum axial rotor, not the valve tubing. So a bass with .593 tubing and a small .571 rotor, and a tenor with .562 tubing and s .571 rotor. They may have fixed this, I haven"t examined modern XOs, but it was this way 10yo when they introduced Axials on their horns (before the XO line was "spun off").

Hey Benn! Wasn’t sure if you were still around. You did the G/Eb attachments on my 3062. Almost a decade ago, wow. Still playing that horn daily and really enjoying it. Thanks!

What do you recommend for my weird project? I’d be glad to have your thoughts.

[Matt K]

I think we exchanged emails a few years back about your dependent tenor. What happened with that?

I'll keep looking at my options. Instrument Innovations mixed with Andrew's suggestion of buying some parts directly from Getzen via a NAPBIRT tech seems like the way I'll end up having to go. Too much Frankenhorn-ing is a bit worrisome to me. I can live with it being a normal open valve wrap if the Morandini-style isn't an option in my price range. I'd rather I get this right than rush to something I'll regret. I've done that before (with my 1062) and for a horn that'll have more sentimental than practical value, I'd like to spare myself the trouble.

Please keep the feedback coming!

Very possibly!

I actually had it built and played it as my main valve section for a few years on my Shires (2RVET7/T47LW, mostly). It was pretty awesome. I eventually had an indy setup made for me on bass that I totally love and so the things I would use the dependent setup for, I almost exclusively play on bass (cello suites, etc.) and nterestingly enough the 525/547 slide I have works awesome on that bell section too despite the enormous difference in bore size. Although, actually not that much different than a medium bore to 562 (562 - 525 = 37; 593 - 547 = 46), which is often the standard size on tenors even.

At any rate, I ended up selling to someone who really likes the valve section! If I had infinite resources, I'd totally still have it, but I've gotten bitten by the "G valve" bug so I'm working on putting one together that I can do G or F on both my small bore tenor and my large bore. Between covid and recently moving to a fairly rural area, I'm not exactly turning down gigs that would require a large bore w/ F attachment

[jsmithtrombone]

I think we exchanged emails a few years back about your dependent tenor. What happened with that?

I'll keep looking at my options. Instrument Innovations mixed with Andrew's suggestion of buying some parts directly from Getzen via a NAPBIRT tech seems like the way I'll end up having to go. Too much Frankenhorn-ing is a bit worrisome to me. I can live with it being a normal open valve wrap if the Morandini-style isn't an option in my price range. I'd rather I get this right than rush to something I'll regret. I've done that before (with my 1062) and for a horn that'll have more sentimental than practical value, I'd like to spare myself the trouble.

Please keep the feedback coming!

Very possibly!

I actually had it built and played it as my main valve section for a few years on my Shires (2RVET7/T47LW, mostly). It was pretty awesome. I eventually had an indy setup made for me on bass that I totally love and so the things I would use the dependent setup for, I almost exclusively play on bass (cello suites, etc.) and nterestingly enough the 525/547 slide I have works awesome on that bell section too despite the enormous difference in bore size. Although, actually not that much different than a medium bore to 562 (562 - 525 = 37; 593 - 547 = 46), which is often the standard size on tenors even.

At any rate, I ended up selling to someone who really likes the valve section! If I had infinite resources, I'd totally still have it, but I've gotten bitten by the "G valve" bug so I'm working on putting one together that I can do G or F on both my small bore tenor and my large bore. Between covid and recently moving to a fairly rural area, I'm not exactly turning down gigs that would require a large bore w/ F attachment

G tuning is great! It sucks a little bit having low B so far out with Eb tuning but I’ve gotten used to it over the years.