Bach 42 intonation

[rmb796]

Hi Everyone,
I tune my Bach 42 about 1/2 inch off of the bumper. The tuning note Bb is out 1/2 "
The D above the Bb is almost all the way in
The F below the Bb is out app. 1"
Do these "adjustments" seem about normal. My King 3b has very little adjusting to do for good intonation.

Thanks Randy

[Burgerbob]

Sounds right to me. My 42s have all been different, the silver plated one I had had a really massive adjustment for the 3rd partial, the one I have now is much less.

My 3B is also opposite- F is a little low if anything, and D is a little high.

[brassmedic]

Weird. For me the D above tuning Bb is in the same place or maybe even slightly sharp. The F below that is indeed quite sharp though. The way I've always thought of it is the tuning Bb is flat so all the other partials are further out on the slide.

[calcbone]

All horns are different… yes, my Shires had a very sharp 5th partial D…

but…what OP describes is exactly what we learned in school about the overtone series. So I’d say the answer to his question is yes, that is perfectly normal.

[Basbasun]

All horns have different intonation issues. But in a large wiev I think there are two categories. King 3 B and Bach 42 are in different categories, In large Bach tenors differ from King and Conn. Most often Bach need more correction on the thid and fifth partials while in the first position while King and Conn are more in tune in first but more out of tune in the sixth position.
But still all Bachs are different like most Kings and Conns are different.

[CheeseTray]

I've played a lot of 42s. These adjustments seem unusually large to me. Are you using an exceptionally large mouthpiece?

[Mamaposaune]

I've always thought 42's were less forgiving on mouthpiece size than other large bore horns such as the 88H, working best with something close to a Bach 5G, Schilke 51-52, or a Wick 5AL in size. The tuning just gets weird with anything smaller, IMO. But that being said, It sounds like the ajustments you have to make are pretty typical.

[OneTon]

Hi Randy,

What is the history on this horn? Is it brand new? Has it supposedly got a stock leadpipe and tuning slide? Has anyone compared the dimensions with another Bach 42? What mouthpiece is being used?

I only have experience with a 42B, a LT42G with oversized Bach bell, and a LT42AG. They are or were more than 20 years old and as far as I know “stock.” I tune off the bumpers but probably more on the order of 0.25 inches. Whatever the offset is, D is flat and F is sharp, but 0.125 inches would most probably easily capture the lengths required to tune both up, respectively. It is subjective since I have not measured it. It has not changed appreciably with any large shank Schilke 47 or large shank Bach 5G mouthpiece, or those times when the offset got to 0.500 to 0.750 inches before I moved the tuning slide.

Also, this experience was consistent with a Conn 88H, and is consistent with a Duo-Gravis with a Bach 1 1/2 G mouthpiece.


Is low B playable?

Richard Smith

[Kbiggs]

I tune my Bach 42 about 1/2 inch off of the bumper. The tuning note Bb is out 1/2 "

Do you mean that the tuning Bb is out about 1" in total from being all the way in? Or that it rests at about 1/2" away from all the way in, that is, the tuning Bb is where you normally play off the bumpers?

If it's 1" in total (1/2" off the bumpers + 1/2" from that point), then you might consider pulling the tuning slide out a bit more. If your tuning slide is already out more than, say 1.5" to 2", then there might be something needing investigation and repair--a leak in a valve, a cracked water key cork, a ferrule that isn't soldered properly, mouthpiece doesn't seat properly, etc.

If it's 1/2" total, then that seems within normal range for a 42 or a 42B -- provided you play "off the bumpers" (usually about 1/2" out from all the way in), and those adjustment seem fairly normal.

You might trying play duets with your teacher or someone whose intonation is good and whom you trust. You can also try playing with different intonation systems on your tuner (just, mean tone, Pythagorean, etc.), or playing against a drone. Remember that where the note is placed on the slide will depend on the function of the note in the chord being played, as well as the intuition system of the ensemble.

[rmb796]

Thanks for all of the support and Ideas. I am playing off of the bumper a little less than 1/2 inch for Bb. My D is in tune all the way in when I am COLD. I am using a D 5.1 Schilke.
I am also using a 50 Light wt. slide. I have had the main tuning slide shortened and refitted to a nice fit.
Bach 42G * I really like the horn and have almost gotten used to the tuning.....

[Bach5G]

That sounds similar to my Bach 12 and 16 slides (custom bell) and the 16 I borrowed recently for comparison purposes. Quite unlike a 1953 King 2B I tried a couple of weeks ago.

[Burgerbob]

That sounds similar to my Bach 12 and 16 slides (custom bell) and the 16 I borrowed recently for comparison purposes. Quite unlike a 1953 King 2B I tried a couple of weeks ago.

Yes, my 16s have quite exaggerated tuning tendencies (with sharp F in the staff, low D above), whereas the 2B I had recently was pretty much straight up and down throughout the range.

[brassmedic]

I am also using a 50 Light wt. slide.

Then you're not playing a Bach 42. You might have led with that.

[OneTon]

Details

[rmb796]

I am so sorry that I didn't give all the details in my first post. I didn't think to do that at the time. However,
the many comments on the Bach 42 intonation do seem to coincide with whatever it is that I am playing.
I will try and never post anything again without all the details.

[Matt K]

To be fair, Bach themselves calls Jay Friedman's various models all as 42 despite having a 50 as an option (and iirc the default):

https://www.bachbrass.com/instruments/t ... s/lt42bofg

So its easy to see why one would call it a 42 since the official marketing does as well, even if it isn't, strictly the same as other 42s.

FWIW, I've used both 547, 547/562, and 562 and I don't notice that much of a difference between them but they were all Shires mostly so maybe they do something to the length of them that is different than what is done on Bachs

[OneTon]

I am so sorry that I didn't give all the details in my first post. I didn't think to do that at the time. However,
the many comments on the Bach 42 intonation do seem to coincide with whatever it is that I am playing.
I will try and never post anything again without all the details.

“Details” is code loosely for: “Don’t sweat the small stuff . . . and it’s all small stuff.” There are times when it is more important to establish a dialog than to worry about precision communication that mimics Mr. Spock’s mind meld.

[Savio]

I have experienced lot of differences in trombones even from same brand. Mostly the F is high, but the D, witch is mostly called the fifth partial? Can be both high and low. In my old Bach 50bl its low, in my Conn 70h its in fact a little high. And the octaves is not the same either. I mostly experience the pedal Bb to be a little high. But then the regular Bb and the very high Bb to be in same place. Sorry Im not familiar with numbers of partials.

Anyway, the old Conn is more forgiven, you can direct the pitch more with your ear despite where you put your slide.

Then I have a nearly new Yamaha 620g and there is nearly no differences in partials. Strange, but the F is still a little out. It lines up and is much more slotted. You cant change it.

Leif