Posture, breathing, horn angle

[timothy42b]

My idea of posture up to now has been that we sit erect, careful to be on our rear and not our tail (several good youtube videos on that), that our shoulder girdle should stack on top of the pelvis, and the head should be in line with the spine. Reinhardt called that the 2 position, not really sure what he meant. Doug told me once that I was moving/tilting my head back to see better and causing problems, that I should use the right glasses and get the head straight. We want to be able to breathe and not strain the neck.

When I do that, my natural chops angle causes the horn to be at stand height, and I must play to the left of the stand. As my vision is not great, that also means seeing the right side of a two page chart is hard, and playing in tight quarters is hard. For that reason I have always envied those who can play underneath a stand, but it never worked for me.

Now I've had another idea. I've been playing with an ergobone for a while due to left shoulder impingement problems. With the stick resting on the chair, it is natural to bend forward a bit. I have found myself leaning forward far enough to play under the stand. The spine is still straight, hinged at the hips rather than curled (at least I'm trying to do that.) I think this might be an option that works for some, especially if the horn is light or you're using an aid. Leaning forward, I think it is probably the spinal erector muscles that take the stress and a bass trombone might just be too much. then on the other hand, I've watched Dave Taylor moving the slide like a baton twirler, spinning around his chair. I think he probably wears out the seat of his pants playing.

Any downside to the forward lean? Effects on breathing or tension?

[Doug Elliott]

Stay flexible, move, and do what you have to do.

[Burgerbob]

Stay flexible, move, and do what you have to do.

[baileyman]

I suspect the insistent breathing advice often received may only make a difference at the extremes. Symphony guys playing the last 140 years of stuff must deliver tremendous volume, for instance. Some big band sections (but they're more likely over blowing). Away from the extremes, the nit picking details of breathing do not seems to matter much. Observe the pic of Kai Winding on The Birth of the Cool session almost supine in his chair. What does seem to matter is maintaining adequate air pressure and modulating the pressure as required. Since the pressure is often in the fractions of a psi, it's hard to get worked up about it for me. At the extremes, though, whatever can help, do it.

[Kbiggs]

Regarding the ErgoBone, when I was using it, I had a similar posture problem. I started placing the peg a little forward on the chair, which caused the peg to lean back slightly towards me at an angle. That allowed the horn angle to be straighter and helped with even distribution of weight on the chops.

I too play with the stand high to help with reading. It helps with the eyes and posture.

I was at a concert (many years ago now) of a Bay Area brass quintet playing standard literature. Mitchell Ross was the trombonist. I had just taken several lessons with him where he implored me to raise the stand. At the concert, his stand was at least one full “desk” higher than anyone else in the quintet. He had a glorious sound. I think he’s in Israel now.

[robcat2075]

I bet a lot of bad postures start in beginner band, where we're crowded too close to the row in front of us, the stand is too low and the chairs are too small.

I think the best general equipment innovation for musicians who breathe is the chair that is high enough so that the thighs' angle from the hip to the knee is slightly downward and the seat of the chair is slightly forward tilted so it is possible to sit on the chair like that without having to perch on the very edge.



The optimal position for breathing is probably standing rather than sitting but that is a fatigue problem in itself.

And still possible to do it badly...

(from Will Kimball's Trombone Timeline)

[afugate]

I bet a lot of bad postures start in beginner band, where we're crowded too close to the row in front of us, the stand is too low and the chairs are too small.

This issue is exacerbated by the growth that often occurs during the early years of band. It pains me to see kids hunched over to read off a stand. It's always the first thing I mention to them, especially young tubists.

--Andy in OKC

[timothy42b]

I bet a lot of bad postures start in beginner band, where we're crowded too close to the row in front of us, the stand is too low and the chairs are too small.

This issue is exacerbated by the growth that often occurs during the early years of band. It pains me to see kids hunched over to read off a stand. It's always the first thing I mention to them, especially young tubists.

--Andy in OKC

And then as we age, vision becomes a problem, flexibility does too, and we may have a head forward posture rather than a head on top of the spine.

One thing I did notice playing on a tile floor rather than carpet is when leaned forward, the feedback bounce off the floor changes how i think I sound.

[timothy42b]

I was thinking out loud in the original post, and I think it was probably wrong. I reserve the right to change my mind.

[AndrewMeronek]

I bet a lot of bad postures start in beginner band, where we're crowded too close to the row in front of us, the stand is too low and the chairs are too small.

A lot of posture problems can be alleviated if setups simply give the trombones a bit more room.

[robcat2075]

I bet a lot of bad postures start in beginner band, where we're crowded too close to the row in front of us, the stand is too low and the chairs are too small.

A lot of posture problems can be alleviated if setups simply give the trombones a bit more room.

That would require action by the adult in the room. I recall a lot of school problems that could have vanished if the adult in the room had taken simple action. But they didn't.

[timothy42b]

I bet a lot of bad postures start in beginner band, where we're crowded too close to the row in front of us, the stand is too low and the chairs are too small.

A lot of posture problems can be alleviated if setups simply give the trombones a bit more room.

Trombones need more space in front and back, for the slide and gooseneck, and to the side for the stand. What clarinets can get away with doesn't work for us. Other musicians are not likely to realize this.

We have to balance the needs of chops angle to get a tone out, posture to breathe, and stand location to see, and sometimes you can't do all three.

[StephenK]

Often the chairs available are a problem, particularly folding stacking chairs which don't make it easy to sit in a good position. I use a wedge foam cushion to help with those.

[Kbiggs]

Yes, band room set-ups exacerbate the problem. I think, though, that the problem begins with the trombone itself, and the size and strength of younger bodies—not just the hand and arm strength, but also the shoulder and chest strength. If you haven’t checked it out, here’s a link on the ErgoBrass page showing before and after pics of beginners with and without using an ergobone: https://www.ergobrass.com/tromboneyoungplayers/

I know it would be a lot to ask parents to buy a +/- $200 contraption in addition to an instrument rental. And I’m sure most kids would think about an ergobone as most kids think about braces on the teeth (or other parts of the body). But I believe (although I have no proof) that many kids would progress more rapidly and gain more enjoyment from making music on the trombone if they had something like this in their formative years.

[Burgerbob]

I'm always a bit glad that I only started trombone at 17, and not when I was smaller. I see many habits that I avoided because of this.

[robcat2075]

Yes, band room set-ups exacerbate the problem. I think, though, that the problem begins with the trombone itself, and the size and strength of younger bodie

I'm always a bit glad that I only started trombone at 17, and not when I was smaller. I see many habits that I avoided because of this.

I recall a study comparing early starters and late starters in school band programs. It was something like 4th grade v. 7th grade.

They found that after about a year, the 7th grade starters had attained the same level of proficiency as the kids who had been playing since 4th grade.

I'm sure there was more than just physical size at work there, but I'm sure that didn't help. Fourth grade hands probably can't even reach the holes on a clarinet.

[Doug Elliott]

I started when I was 8 and definitely on the small side, playing on a very front-heavy Olds Recording and I couldn't reach 6th position.

Good private instruction from the beginning is far more important than physical size.

[harrisonreed]

And still possible to do it badly...

(from Will Kimball's Trombone Timeline)

If you don't look too long, the trombone player looks like a modern guy dressed like Steve from Blue's Clues, in corduroys and a green sweater, surrounded people in baroque costumes.

[timothy42b]

Thanks Harrison, I think I see what I'm doing wrong.
Apparently the trombone is supposed to be played left handed.

[timothy42b]

I recall a study comparing early starters and late starters in school band programs. It was something like 4th grade v. 7th grade.

They found that after about a year, the 7th grade starters had attained the same level of proficiency as the kids who had been playing since 4th grade.

I've had band directors tell me that too.

But I have to wonder how much actual instruction or practice is going on in a 4th grade classroom with a bunch of unruly kids and one overworked teacher. It might be vastly different if we compared a more serious student starting at age 9 rather than 12.

[timothy42b]

I know it would be a lot to ask parents to buy a +/- $200 contraption in addition to an instrument rental. And I’m sure most kids would think about an ergobone as most kids think about braces on the teeth (or other parts of the body). But I believe (although I have no proof) that many kids would progress more rapidly and gain more enjoyment from making music on the trombone if they had something like this in their formative years.

That's an interesting thought. I've been playing with an ergobone lately, and now I'm wondering if it hurt or helped my posture. As noted in my first post, it supports enough of the horn that different angles are possible. I need to video my playing and see what I'm really doing. Like most things, it is possible to do it wrong.

[robcat2075]

...But I have to wonder how much actual instruction or practice is going on in a 4th grade classroom with a bunch of unruly kids and one overworked teacher. It might be vastly different if we compared a more serious student starting at age 9 rather than 12.

Maybe? Possibly?

With enough coaching and supervision you can probably make the 9-year old do anything.

But most private teaching is not like "The Red Violin" where the kid gets locked in a tower and forced to practice his scales all day.

AFAIK, most private teachers get the student for one half hour or one hour... per week... and outside of that it is up to the student to resist all the other calls of life and nature and diligently practice his lesson AND intelligently retain and implement what was said at the lesson.

Who is more likely to do that better, the 9-year-old or the 12?

I remember taking piano lessons when I was 9 or 10. I couldn't make sense of it. The teacher was speaking in complete English sentences but once I got home I couldn't build on it.

Several years later I tried piano lessons again and it was no longer baffling. It was hard, but I could always see the way forward.

What changed? It was the same teacher both times!

[Kbiggs]

I started when I was 8 and definitely on the small side, playing on a very front-heavy Olds Recording and I couldn't reach 6th position.

Good private instruction from the beginning is far more important than physical size.

I agree—a good teacher is more important.

Part of my statement was from personal history (small and skinny, playing a Conn Director), as well as the observation that during private teaching there is a lot of time spent reminding students to sit straight (or “Don’t slouch” if you’re into negative reinforcement) and hold the horn at a higher angle (Don’t point down). If you remove that distraction (noise) from the dynamic, perhaps it will allow the student (and teacher) to focus on music rather than posture.

In addition to cost and persuading parents to spend more money, I can see a couple of problems with using an ergobone from the beginning. For example, if posture is essential to the trombonist, wouldn’t it be better to start students without a “crutch” or quasi-orthopedic device to train/acclimate their minds and muscles on good posture? Perhaps constant reminders about posture are essential to learning to play trombone?

Which, then, works better to develop lifelong habits: early constant reminders, or a device that makes it so you can’t collapse your chest and abdomen? I don’t know.

[Savio]

Thinking a lot of posture , breathing, horn angle can help you, or get you into trouble.

Posture; as comfortable as possible both when sitting and standing. Like you do when watching an exciting movie or when you stand up and watching the nice sunset in front of you.

Breathing in; think of smelling a nice flower, or like a yawn. Never think of your stomach.

Breathing out; Thats an easy answer, Its like when you thought you missed your wife's birthday but you rembered it in last minute..... puuhh

Horn Angle? Try all, but don't point at somebody.

Leif

[TheFilthOfFrank]

The deepest breath is usually when there's no noise on it, correct?

[Shiny]

What changed? It was the same teacher both times!

As a music teacher I’m absolutely certain that children can learn to play well and that this can be expected of most children, not simply the ‘talented’ few. Your question made me think, and I don’t presume to make assumptions about your teacher or circumstances when I outline the following theory.

I think though that the ideal conditions of parenting, engaging teaching, and support from peers can make the difference in a young child learning successfully and not. I have experience teaching a range of students of different ages and abilities and interests and think that these statements are generally true:

- Peer support might be most important to children, because if what you do is fun or cool or simply what is required in order to be in a social group, that provides motivation and reason to practice and engage. Sometimes it provides ways to learn from people other than your teacher — which is great, in many cases!

- When I have taught young children, parents often sat beside their kids and even learned alongside them so that they can repeat the activities at home. This means they essentially become teachers at home, or perhaps teaching assistants. I suspect this helps younger children structure their practice effectively and engage with it for longer. Children grow out of this stage, of course. When I was a teenager I would have been annoyed if my parents hovered near the piano to direct my practice.

- Engaging teaching looks different to different students and good teaching looks different at different ages. I find young students need more repetition and concrete instructions, and need more effort put into finding engaging songs or games to make technical exercises fun. They also often need a greater variety of activities due to the shorter attention spans of many younger students.

- Younger children learning music for the first time also face a literacy barrier, which can slow progress: it is much easier to pick up a second instrument when one already knows how to read notation. Learning both at once is, frankly, hard work, especially when one is also being taught other kinds of verbal and written literacy at school. How a teacher approaches this can be crucial to the outcomes of the student.