wtf?

[PosauneCat]

Who is this dude? Is this a joke?

[Burgerbob]

Seems genuine to me. I think the style matches that tune pretty well, actually.

[Bach5G]

Roswell Rudd. Sui generis. Although Ray Anderson covers some of the same territory.

[robcat2075]

I guess we can't accuse him of being too exacting and over-careful.

Other things, yes.

[harrisonreed]

The intro is a joke. "Gotta find the key/get out the bad notes first/warm up". Hardee har har. Definitely on purpose.

FWIW I don't like how he actually sounds once he stops joking around, even though it seems like he knows jazz and knows what he's doing. That "blatty/it's about the gestures, stupid" sound ain't it for me, and he's not a great example of that style. But it was live with really bad sound support. Who knows.

[Pre59]

RR was a big player in the free jazz movement, and I understand that he had a parallel career, but this utterly cringe show boating just brings the tbn into disrepute IMO.

[Basbasun]

RR was a well known player and composer for many of us old farts. I listen to him with Archie Shepp, Carla Bley and Steve Lacy. Sometimes he was far out, but sometimes he was really genius.

[Doug Elliott]

This debate about Roswell has been going on for his whole career. Joke or genius?

Whether you like what he did or not, he was a genius. He knew exactly what he was doing.

Consider this particular performance, and the song itself...if you notice, at 5:38 you can hear two trombones soloing at the same time for a while - a delay recording of something he did previously. Then the same thing happens during the piano solo, two piano solos at the same time. And the time is purposely screwed up for a while. The song is about sanity/insanity, and it's all very intentional. None of it is a joke, it's musical choices for a musical effect. That's what Roswell was all about and he was a genius.

[biggiesmalls]

For a bit of perspective, I've always loved Rudd's collaborations with Malian tora player Toumani Diabate:





Right up there with my other Malian favorites like Ali Faka Toure and Manu Dibango.

[PosauneCat]

I guess we can't accuse him of being too exacting and over-careful.

Other things, yes.

[PosauneCat]

(Apologia: what follows is just my opinion. I have no intention of offending anyone or starting a flame war. I respect everyone’s opinions equally, unless they violate human decency or scientific fact, and I would appreciate the same in return.)

Ok, now that that’s out of the way…

I’m no stranger to the avant-garde. Even several of my very early works incorporated free improv and called for crazy extended techniques…having gotten that out of my system I moved on. I’m a great fan of Albert Ayler, Tim Berne, Diamanda Galás, Cecil Taylor, Dave Holland, etc. In the classical world I adore Stockhausen, Xenakis, Feldman, and for a short period of time had the opportunity to work with two of my childhood idols, Luciano Berio and Cathy Berberian (perhaps not readily comparable to avant-garde jazz, but you get the idea).

The difference between all of them and Rudd (at least what I’ve heard) is that they all displayed admirable command of their respective instruments, voices, and compositional practices. Rudd’s sound is unpleasant and unapproachable to me. He sounds like a 5th grade trombone student. Perhaps there is great genius behind what he thinks, but to my ears it is unapparent as his ideas become manifest. Even what clever ideas are obvious become moot due to conspicuous, and probably intentional, lack of focus on technique. I’m sure that was a big part of his philosophy, but, alas, he was no Wittgenstein of the trombone! Maybe he was more of an existential nihilist.

Even though I can’t appreciate what he did, I appreciate that he did it. There’s room for all kinds of artistic expression. If I we’re to become anymore complimentary after my opining above, it would be disingenuous and it would fall into the category of the old joke, “other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the show?” Finally, perhaps Florence Foster Jenkins’ great quote applies best, “Some may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing.”

[Kbiggs]

I’m sure that was a big part of his philosophy, but, alas, he was no Wittgenstein of the trombone!

That’s hilarious! I’ve never heard Wittgenstein mentioned in a discussion of trombone playing!

Maybe he was more of an existential nihilist.

Even an existential nihilist can be a genius.

Finally, perhaps Florence Foster Jenkins’ great quote applies best, “Some may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing.”

If the Fat Lady sings and there’s no one there to hear it, did the opera really happen?

[PosauneCat]

Maybe he was more of an existential nihilist.

Even an existential nihilist can be a genius.

Good point. I stand corrected. Nietzsche wasn’t half bad.

[jacobgarchik]

Roswell had a career that lasted 60 years.

He and Watrous were roommates in the early 60s. I went to a Watrous masterclass and he said that he though Roswell was an incredible trombone player.

If you are put off by the supposed lack of technique in the above example I suggest listening to School Days, live with Steve lacy.



If you can't appreciate the high level of trombone playing in that, I can't help you.

[jacobgarchik]

anyway I wrote an essay about some of these topics which you can read here.

https://ethaniverson.com/on-roswell-by-jacob-garchik/

[fsgazda]

anyway I wrote an essay about some of these topics which you can read here.

https://ethaniverson.com/on-roswell-by-jacob-garchik/

Thank you for the essay and the recording. I have heard the name Roswell Rudd, but didn't really know anything about him. And I really dig School Days!

[PosauneCat]

Roswell had a career that lasted 60 years.

He and Watrous were roommates in the early 60s. I went to a Watrous masterclass and he said that he though Roswell was an incredible trombone player.

If you are put off by the supposed lack of technique in the above example I suggest listening to School Days, live with Steve lacy.



If you can't appreciate the high level of trombone playing in that, I can't help you.

Admittedly a much higher level. I guess I’ve only heard him after his prime. Thanks for the link.

[PosauneCat]

anyway I wrote an essay about some of these topics which you can read here.

https://ethaniverson.com/on-roswell-by-jacob-garchik/

A very nice essay! I appreciate what you’re saying even if Rudd’s playing is not my cup of tea. My background is all in classical theory and musicology, and, admittedly, my taste in jazz is probably narrower than many folks on the forum. I’m a diehard bebop fan and probably got stuck there. Thanks for sharing your writing.

[Bach5G]

I second PC’s compliments wrt your essay Jacob. An excellent history of 20th C jazz trombone. Should be required reading IMHO.

I had Flexible Flyer back in the 70s but didn’t particularly care for it. I would have agreed with JJ (and probably still do) about the “usual sliding, slurring, lip trilling or ‘gut bucket’”style.

[harrisonreed]

Roswell had a career that lasted 60 years.

He and Watrous were roommates in the early 60s. I went to a Watrous masterclass and he said that he though Roswell was an incredible trombone player.

The missing link! All it took was one gesture of kindness, where Waltrous offered up first dibs on the bag of candy, and the bad trip happened to be the one on top. The blue one sends you off into lala land, and the red one makes you sound amazing and makes you think everything else sounds amazing.Their fates could have been reversed...

[PosauneCat]

Roswell had a career that lasted 60 years.

He and Watrous were roommates in the early 60s. I went to a Watrous masterclass and he said that he though Roswell was an incredible trombone player.

The missing link! All it took was one gesture of kindness, where Waltrous offered up first dibs on the bag of candy, and the bad trip happened to be the one on top. The blue one sends you off into lala land, and the red one makes you sound amazing and makes you think everything else sounds amazing.Their fates could have been reversed...

That’s very funny, Harrison.

[VJOFan]

It swings.

He does some pretty cool and subtle things with vowel shapes and split tones in the intro.

[jacobgarchik]

Not only were they roommates, they were both playing Dixieland and hanging out with Herbie Nichols. Watrous studied with Herbie Nichols and Roswell played with him.

[PosauneCat]

Not only were they roommates, they were both playing Dixieland and hanging out with Herbie Nichols. Watrous studied with Herbie Nichols and Roswell played with him.

Great story.

[Joebone]

anyway I wrote an essay about some of these topics which you can read here.

https://ethaniverson.com/on-roswell-by-jacob-garchik/

Great essay! My only two Rudd albums are Everywhere! and Malicool (and as a sideman in some Charlie Haden/Paula Bley stuff), and I've gotta chase down the other items you reference. I came up in the '70's, with a fair amount of "free" playing at one point, and have always considered Rudd to be a conscious master of his heterodox direction. Doug Elliott's post, above, nails it. Thanks, again, for the essay.

[Cmillar]

Roswell Rudd could play many styles and colors on the horn and get more 'types' of sound than all the rest of us whenever he wanted. Here, he's into the tune and creating the mood. Listen to that beautiful last minute. Good art!

People are digging it. 'Nuff said.

[Cmillar]

This was next on YouTube....

Playing with 'Sonic Youth'!

.....Coolness. Sound. It is what it is.

[robcat2075]

So all of that is carefully chosen.

Informed by erudition and discernment gathered from a lifetime of cutting-edge performance.

Every note an expertly-landed brush stroke on his musical canvas.

Every phrase so perfectly-formed as to make even Orpheus abandon his lyre in shame.

Wow... that's a lot of work just to sound like bad trombone playing.

Respect!

[imsevimse]

Interesting!

/Tom

[PosauneCat]

So all of that is carefully chosen.

Informed by erudition and discernment gathered from a lifetime of cutting-edge performance.

Every note an expertly-landed brush stroke on his musical canvas.

Every phrase so perfectly-formed as to make even Orpheus abandon his lyre in shame.

Wow... that's a lot of work just to sound like bad trombone playing.

Respect!

Robert, I am definitely more in your camp than those who enjoy Rudd’s playing. I’ve never been a fan of music that conspicuously thumbs its nose at tradition (à la Ralph Shapey). But, there’s all kinds of examples of “shock art” out there and some people really dig it. That’s ok, there’s room for everyone on the bus!

My background is largely in classical music and literature so I am not a fan of the school of “bad is good.” That being said, I am a great fan of Ruggles and Varèse, both of whom are pretty unpopular among traditional classical musicians. Chris Rouse was a friend of mine and I used to pick on him for his Pulitzer Prize winning Trombone Concerto which exploits the rougher side of the trombone and shows very little of it’s lyrical beauty or majesty. I told him he was giving into the common man’s aural concept of the trombone and setting us back 100 years! He was a brilliant guy and a great composer and knew I was just messing with him, BUT, I really am not a fan of raucous trombone playing.

Anyway, I don’t want to ruffle anyone’s feathers anymore than I have by starting this post so I’ll shut up now. I will say though, you have bigger cojones than me for bravely stating your mind on an Internet forum. I still suffer from the memory of the old Trombone-L list serve 20 years ago. It was f**king brutal. I’ve witnessed this group getting bent
about certain topics, mostly in the “tangents” section, but it pales in comparison to the vituperative mayhem displayed in Trombone-L (which, by the way, Doug Yeo and I used to call Trombone-Hell). Hats off to you for your bravery, Robert!

[Doug Elliott]

There are many players whose playing I can appreciate for what it is, but I would NEVER choose to play or sound that way myself.

[PosauneCat]

There are many players whose playing I can appreciate for what it is, but I would NEVER choose to play or sound that way myself.

Yep, I agree with that, Doug. I feel that way about players, composers, artists, etc. For instance, I’m one of the few people I know who doesn’t like Shostakovich, but I think he was a great composer. I also don’t like Gauguin, but he was a great painter. And, this one caused me grief in grad school to no end, I loathe Theodore Adorno’s critical writing, but I think he was a genius. As I said, there’s room for all of us on the bus.

[harrisonreed]

Shock art though....

I know it's impossible to define what art is, and what counts as real art and what posing is. You can stick a lobster on a phone and call it art, or hang a urinal on the wall in the art museum and call it art, but the result is always about the quality of delivery and the thought it provokes. A urinal displayed on the wall juxtaposed against priceless works of art might actually do it. On top of a garbage pile, it's just another piece of junk.

Avant garde music is shocking to many people, and usually sounds horrible -- but if you hear it delivered by a real virtuoso suddenly you hear things teased out of the avant garde sheet music and brought into reality that drive you crazy and haunt your thoughts. Powerful stuff.

College kids play Berio's music on their recitals but that doesn't make it art. Berio could scribble notes onto a page and display it, but that doesn't make it art either -- it might even be further from what makes it art because it isn't rendered into reality just sitting on a page.

Maybe Rudd's music just needs the right interpreter to deliver it...

Also, PosauneCat, only because I love the work and love discussing trombone concertos: You should listen to the Rouse Concerto again. I think it contains some of the most beautiful, lyrical lines ever written for the trombone, and also treats the instrument with respect as a modern solo instrument as showcased in the second movement. The melodic lines are made more beautiful because they rise up out of the ashes of some of the most cataclysmic writing for any concerto I've heard. Publishing another purely melodic and tonal concerto for the trombone, unless it's the equivalent of Rachmaninoff 2, would be taking a step backwards in my mind. Almost all of our concertos are purely melodic, and none of them have ever stirred up an emotion in me like Rach 2 continues to do to this day. Maybe the closest we get is the slow movement of L. Mozart (ironically our best melody is in one of our first published pieces), or the piano/trombone duet within the Grondahl concerto.

The only other melodies in concertos that stand out to me as really memorable for the trombone are the incredible, soaring section that rises up out of utter chaos in M. Nyman's concerto, and just as you get a chill from how beautiful it is as it resolves, it gets cut off by the percussion slamming filing cabinet doors. Also in the same piece, the opening and closing motifs of that piece that make you realize the whole thing is just a giant repeating circle. Finally the short ossia in the Bourgeois concerto that doesn't appear in the actual solo part (piano reduction edition). Unbelievably beautiful if played right, and it's hidden in the dang score! But again, both of these lines are only great because they rise up out of crazy boombastic sections out of almost nowhere.

I think if we could get a Rach 2, surely it would have happened already. The trombone can't step back and accompany the orchestra like a piano can, so the focus has to be on the trombone the entire time, and that limits us and the writing we get. Like the uber-melodic, uber-soloist focused "Visions of light", a giant, 30 minute, melodic line. Beautiful, but it's like too much of a good thing.

[PosauneCat]

Also, PosauneCat, only because I love the work and love discussing trombone concertos: You should listen to the Rouse Concerto again.

Nope. Chris was a very dear friend and I miss him everyday, but I hate that piece. I know it very well. Now I’m going to really piss some people off…I actually don’t like most trombone solo pieces except in jazz and commercial music. I NEVER listen to any of the standard trombone solo pieces, Hindemith (who I adore!), David, Wagenseil, etc., they bore me to tears. Both as a trombonist and composer I think the trombone shines brightest as an ensemble instrument. Occasional solos within the orchestra are wonderful, Mahler 2 & 3, Mozart Requiem, Bolero, Shostakovich Jazz Suite, etc. But recital pieces for trombone just don’t cut it for me. The instruments that excite me for solos and concertos are violin, piano, cello, high woodwinds, and occasionally horn. Most brass instrument solo pieces are just not what I want to hear. As i said jazz trombone is fantastic and I do like old solo pieces for trombone and band like stuff by Pryor or Clarke. The only time I listen to recital pieces for trombone is when I want to hear the player. I would never get in the car and listen to the Albrechtsberger concerto for example. In a world that offers sublime works like the Bach Violin Sonatas and Partitas, Beethoven, Mozart, and Brahms piano concertos, Gubaidulina’s Offertorium, or the Brahms and Berg violin concerto, most solo brass works sound second rate at best to me. Exceptions, of course, are the Mozart and Strauss Horn concertos. There is just no comparison between the David Trombone Concerto and extraordinary works like Berg’s Violin Concerto or Beethoven’s Emperor Concerto. At lease Chris’s Concerto is remarkably composed and masterfully orchestrated. There’s no question it is a fine composition. I just hate 80% of the sounds he created. As Doug said above and I reiterated, it’s very possible to appreciate someone’s playing or compositions but not want to play or write like that, or, in my case, I don’t even want to hear it, regardless of the fact that I may love the person doing it. Life’s way too short to spend time doing things you don’t enjoy.

I listen to a lot of Early Music. The use of the sackbut in Renaissance music really turns me on. Schutz’s Fili mi Absolom or chamber works by Biber, Schmelzer, Mainero, or Praetorious float my boat.

All that said, I listened McChesney play Carnival of Venice 3 times last week. The man is super human, and it’s a fun piece!!!

I will say though, you gave a great idea. I’m going to crazy glue a lobster to my phone first thing tomorrow.

[BGuttman]

...

I will say though, you gave a great idea. I’m going to crazy glue a lobster to my phone first thing tomorrow.

Alive or dead?

What do you think of Picasso's "Bull" made of a bicycle seat and set of handle bars?

[PosauneCat]

...

I will say though, you gave a great idea. I’m going to crazy glue a lobster to my phone first thing tomorrow.

Alive or dead?

What do you think of Picasso's "Bull" made of a bicycle seat and set of handle bars?

Definitely dead, Bruce. I may be a jerk but I’m not a sadist!

I think the Picasso is brilliant. I’m also a great fan of abstract expressionism. Jackson Pollock’s drip paintings leave me breathless. Even Rothko’s color field paintings blow my mind. Whenever I’m in D.C. I go and sit in front of Pollock’s Lavender Mist at the National for hours. I’d kill to own that painting!

[harrisonreed]

Not my idea:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster_Telephone

[Cmillar]

Maybe Rudd's music just needs the right interpreter to deliver it...

Beg to differ....Rudd is Rudd, McChesney is McChesney, Watrous is Watrous, Alessi is Alessi, Lindberg is Lindberg, Taylor is Taylor, Bowie is Bowie, Ferris is Ferris, etc. etc.

Thank God we have individual voices on the trombone. I'm glad not all painters use the same colors.

[harrisonreed]

Yeah. It's hard to argue with that

[hyperbolica]

There are many players whose playing I can appreciate for what it is, but I would NEVER choose to play or sound that way myself.

... there’s room for all of us on the bus

That's not a popular sentiment these days. There are plenty of folks who will argue with you even when you agree, just because you think it's ok for others to have a different opinion.

I have a hard time seeing the genius, but we're all here talking about Roswell and not me for a reason, so I have to accept that there is something there, whether I can see it or not. There's lot of jazz or even bop (and a definite range of classical) that goes outside of the bounds of what I like to listen to. Strauss was one of my all time favorites, but Elektra makes me cover my ears like it's The Attack Of The Killer Tomatoes or something. There are aspects of truly great performers like Charlie Parker and Prince that are sometimes just a little too much for me. I think it's usually like that, where the real answer is not just black and white, it's a lot more complex. People don't really want to deal with complex answers these days, simple answers only - Rudd is bad because he doesn't play the right notes at the right times - oversimplify things. Rudd makes me roll my eyes and probably change the channel. But I used to like Paul Winter back in the 80s. I'm sure a lot of people roll their eyes and flip the channel on that one too.

[jacobgarchik]

it's ok to say "I don't know enough of his work" or even "I checked out a lot of his work and it just doesn't do it for me" but to say he plays the instrument badly or that he doesn't know how to play conventionally or that he purposely plays the wrong notes...that's just factually wrong. Ignorance. He played plenty of stuff that is really quite straight forward. Just...listen. "I saw one youtube video of Miles Davis in 1985 and he was playing fusion and he cracked one note so I don't have to learn anything about the history of jazz to know that I don't like Miles Davis"



He was a hard swinging, changes playing, master of the blues, crowd pleasing communicator, when he wanted to be, when the music required it. Right out of the tradition of Tricky Sam and Kid Ory and Trummy Young.

and he played the instrument very very well.

C'mon people, trombone players are supposed to be the enlightened, open minded ones, the champions of the underdog and the under appreciated!

[biggiesmalls]

https://www.abrasha.com/picasso.html

[ithinknot]

...
PABLO PICASSO

From: ORIGIN 12, January 1964 Cid Corman, Editor Kyoto, Japan

... which would be interesting, were it not [La Cucaracha horn] fake news.

[biggiesmalls]

...
PABLO PICASSO

From: ORIGIN 12, January 1964 Cid Corman, Editor Kyoto, Japan

... which would be interesting, were it not [La Cucaracha horn] fake news.

Aha. Thank God there are men in the world who are more informed than I. In retrospect, it did sound a bit too good to be true.

FWIW, Jose Arguelles, in his book The Transformative Vision (written before Arguelles, like John Lilly, went off into the deep end), makes a compelling argument for the ideas expressed in our present fictitious quote; it's an interesting and thought-provoking read.

[Kbiggs]

“Chacun à son goût,” as the French say. But first, you must taste the soup.

[PosauneCat]

it's ok to say "I don't know enough of his work" or even "I checked out a lot of his work and it just doesn't do it for me"

Actually it’s ok to say whatever you want. Opinion is opinion. You seem to be pushing pretty hard to get people to admit they were wrong and know nothing so therefore their opinions are faulty, or they are just ignorant or lazy because they don’t hear what you hear. As a composer i would think you’d be used to the notion that everyone hears things differently. I’ve listened to each link you’ve posted and though they were very different than the one I posted that started this thread, they still don’t appeal to me as would other players like Fontana, Watrous, Martin, Rosolino, McChesney, Mangelsdorf, etc. I openly admitted that perhaps Rudd was brilliant, but it just doesn’t appeal to me.

C'mon people, trombone players are supposed to be the enlightened, open minded ones, the champions of the underdog and the under appreciated!

This was tongue-in-cheek right? Trombonists are not a special class of enlightened super people. I’m sure we’ve all met trombonists who were brilliant, who were morons, who were kind, who were dickheads, who you’d like to befriend, or who you’d run away from.

One last thing. I started this post based on the live performance link I initially posted. So my thoughts at the time were confined to that one performance. You, Doug E., and others had many thoughts to share about it and it helped to put Rudd in perspective for me. However, even after listening to everything I could find online, I just don’t like what he does. Even his mainstream stuff doesn’t appeal to me. I just don’t like the sound of his playing. But I’ve come to see he certainly had something to offer and his contribution to the history of ideas is very valid.

I’m curious to know if there are any players or composers of repute who you don’t care for. If so, you surely understand what the dissenters are saying. If not, that would be quite remarkable and impressively inclusive.

Jacob, I just want you to know I’m not being pointlessly confrontational or argumentative. I respect to your opinions and after hearing your own music I hold your work in high regard. I hope you know that. I’m only trying to understand all sides of this particular issue and clarify my feelings about it. I don’t want to make any enemies here, I simply like sharing ideas with people.

[Bach5G]

As an aside, let me suggest that this thread is an excellent example of how the Internet should work. Thoughtful responses, no name-calling etc.

I listened to a bit more of Flex Flyer on my Alexa. Still not sold.

[jacobgarchik]

Listening is good. Listening and saying it's not for you is good. Anybody who does that is ok in my book.

[PosauneCat]

Listening is good. Listening and saying it's not for you is good. Anybody who does that is ok in my book.

Glad to hear it!

[PosauneCat]

As an aside, let me suggest that this thread is an excellent example of how the Internet should work. Thoughtful responses, no name-calling etc.

I agree!