Legato Tonguing always or nah?

[Tbone00]

It is out of my own curiosity.
I know there are people who always use legato tongue to avoid smears and on the other hand there are the people who use both natural and tongued slurs and they try to make them sound the same.

Now Think you are going to play rochut n2. Would you use legato tonguing in the first 5 notes?

[timothy42b]

It's not binary though.

people who use both natural and tongued slurs and they try to make them sound the same

There are also people who use both natural and tongued slurs because they do not sound the same.

More on point, I've recently realized my natural slurs don't sound as close to tongued as i thought they did. Funny how the mere presence of an iPhone recording can affect my playing.

[Tbone00]

It's not binary though.

people who use both natural and tongued slurs and they try to make them sound the same

There are also people who use both natural and tongued slurs because they do not sound the same.

More on point, I've recently realized my natural slurs don't sound as close to tongued as i thought they did. Funny how the mere presence of an iPhone recording can affect my playing.

Of course you are right! and if we also talk about other styles such as jazz there are a lot of combination of Tonguing. But refering to this specific example I think most of people try to make a uniform legato.

[Burgerbob]

I practice things both ways, but usually end up with a blend.

[robcat2075]

I had teachers who taught "always tongue" and teachers who taught "no tongue for natural slurs" but never had one who taught a hybrid approach.

It's easier to teach a rule than to teach judgement.

[ArbanRubank]

I tongue up and slur down.

[baileyman]

It seems the great difficulty is getting the slurs to sound on time. A good one has some real snap to it, and getting the snap at the right time in the beat can take lots of daily flex practice. I used to think this was impossible, but now I know that I just did not have the skill.

[Doug Elliott]

There are two "rules" that are safe and always work.

One is to tongue everything and learn to tongue so lightly that it's not noticeable. That's how I learned..

The other is to do natural slurs only in the combination of downward slur and inward slide motion. That what I do now a lot of the time.

In the end it's totally your own judgement as to what works best in each situation. Until it because natural, that means always being aware of what you're doing and how how want all your connections to sound.

[robcat2075]

Another element of legato inconsistency I've encountered among teachers is whether the slide should move quickly between positions or leisurely.

It always seemed logical to me, since the goal of good legato technique is to not create a glissando effect, that getting the slide to the destination ASAP, during the brief interruption of the tongue, would be the ideal.

[Kdanielsen]

Another element of legato inconsistency I've encountered among teachers is whether the slide should move quickly between positions or leisurely.

It always seemed logical to me, since the goal of good legato technique is to not create a glissando effect, that getting the slide to the destination ASAP, during the brief interruption of the tongue, would be the ideal.

My two cents: both. 1-2 is slower than 1-5.

And I try for natural slurs, but not always. I’ll almost always tongue a descending slur that skips a partial.

[hyperbolica]

Playing euphonium or valved instrument for a while will give you a different perspective on natural slurs. You can do an awful lot of playing without the tongue. Natural slur, light tongue, hard tongue, it's all part of the art of articulation. I think articulation style is a big part of what makes each players style unique. Not every style sounds good.

I try to catch natural breaks as much as possible, especially across partials. When you can't break across partials, you have to tongue it a little.

[Doug Elliott]

Slide speed is important, but timing is more important. Synchronize so you don't get either a gliss or a bump. Too many players give a little crescendo at the end of each note as they make the slur to the next note.
daaaAH daaaAH daaaAH daaaAH
If that is how you sound, please stop doing it.

[Savio]

I had a teacher with fantastic legato. Could have listened that legato all day. I asked how but she couldn't explain exactly, except hit has to do with synchronization of slide, air and tongue. I think she didn't use tongue on natural slurs. I wonder how much tongue we should use? I think the slide should go rather fast, but not so fast that it make tension.
Leif

[robcat2075]

...but she couldn't explain exactly...

That is an alarmingly common problem among teachers.

[Kdanielsen]

...but she couldn't explain exactly...

That is an alarmingly common problem among teachers.

As a teacher I’ve found that I can explain things all day and the students still need to take that last step themselves to really get it. It’s like how you don’t really understand a hot pan until you burn yourself. There is knowing, and then there is knowing. You get one from a teacher, and the other from yourself.

I think inspiration can be a really good component of teaching, and sometimes it’s the one that does the trick. I studied with a trombone superstar for a bit and he would put his tuner on the stand and play long tones that went from absolutely ppp up to fff then back to ppp. The tuner wouldn’t move a bit. Not even quiver (and he had the sensitivity all the way up). He said “figure it out.” No instruction, just that jaw dropping display of control. I asked how and he said I just needed to find the feel of it. It took months but I figured it out, and it was a really valuable lesson that helped me figure out a lot of things about embouchure.

[robcat2075]

"...but she couldn't explain exactly... "

That is an alarmingly common problem among teachers.

As a teacher I’ve found that I can explain things all day and the students still need to take that last step themselves to really get it...

But, as described, this was a situation where the teacher has not explained much at all. Just the same generalities we all know anyway.

I recall taking an art class a few years ago and had occasion to ask "How would I apply [this new concept] to the case I have here?"

"Just make it look good," was the answer i got.

Wow. That was a lame answer. And yet I'm the one who has failed to "take that last step"?

I've witnessed that dismissive hand wave too many times in too many classes.

Self-study I can do myself without registering for a class. I usually do now. But If I'm paying tuition I'm paying for answers and ought to be able to get them for on-topic questions.

[Savio]

But, as described, this was a situation where the teacher has not explained much at all. Just the same generalities we all know anyway.

Robert this was an extremely good teacher, and yes she did explain what you call obvious or generalities. I call it basics. She had me do a lot of Bach cello suites and bordogni. She liked my legato but focused a lot on musicality and I went out from school with an ok exam. She was the teacher of many fine players that now sit in professional orchestras.

Maybe I should explain a little better, she had an extraordinary nice legato. I just asked her once what she did inside the mouth. She couldnt exactly tell what was going inside the mouth, instead we tried out different vocals, tounge. But she was happy with my legato and focused on other things. Musicallity. I just wanted to copy her exactly but of course I think she wanted me to sound as me.

I think a lot of the basics like legato, sound, articulation has obvious explanations but needs a lot of work and understanding to get. Maybe thats why nearly all high levels players still do basics and work on this everyday? Whilst some players not at that level often forget it or neglect it sometimes. Like me, I often forget to do basics these days. And be 100% concentrate on what I do.

Anyway I think it's need some work. Work on flow of air, slide technique, different slide positions, different tongue use, is what we have to always work on. And make it sound musical. Work and understanding how and why is important. Words can guide but doesnt give a suddenly high level. Except where the student do something completely wrong or doesnt understand it at all. Sorry if I can't explain my self the right why. As told before, my English need some serious basic practicing...lol


Leif

[lauriet]

I read about a teacher that suggested...."try to make each note last until the next one starts"
This is helpful for me rather than thinking about 3 different things at the same time (air, tongue, slide)
But I'm miles away from being an expert.
One thought that gets you focused on the resulting sound and tells your brain and body: "you figure it out"

[Savio]

Yes, and also think on legato between two notes as one long note. When I try to do basic I try to do very simple exercises where I focus on one or two things at the time. Drill it in and hope it goes automatic after some time. When we performe we might think more music? Or don't think much at all?

Leif

[Kbiggs]

As a teacher I’ve found that I can explain things all day and the students still need to take that last step themselves to really get it...

But, as described, this was a situation where the teacher has not explained much at all. Just the same generalities we all know anyway.

I recall taking an art class a few years ago and had occasion to ask "How would I apply [this new concept] to the case I have here?"

"Just make it look good," was the answer i got.

Wow. That was a lame answer. And yet I'm the one who has failed to "take that last step"?

I've witnessed that dismissive hand wave too many times in too many classes.

Self-study I can do myself without registering for a class. I usually do now. But If I'm paying tuition I'm paying for answers and ought to be able to get them for on-topic questions.

Some things cannot be learned through explanation, and must be experienced to learn. Experience comes through experimentation (they share the Latin root expiriri, “to try”), which implies success and failure. You can use “better” or “worse” if you prefer, or “achieved” and “needs work.”

Sometimes, the most beneficial things a teacher can do are to demonstrate a technique and let the student figure it out, or use an analogy/simile/metaphor to paint a picture of the desired result. After all, isn’t the long-term goal of teaching to work one’s self out of a job for every student... in other words, help them learn to teach themselves?

[imsevimse]

There are two "rules" that are safe and always work.

One is to tongue everything and learn to tongue so lightly that it's not noticeable. That's how I learned..

The other is to do natural slurs only in the combination of downward slur and inward slide motion. That what I do now a lot of the time.

In the end it's totally your own judgement as to what works best in each situation. Until it because natural, that means always being aware of what you're doing and how how want all your connections to sound.

I've worked a lot on my legato. Before I was tounguing everything but now I do just like Doug says here but I also use natural slurs if slide goes outwards and notes goes up and also if there are large leaps upwards then I often tounge too. In some occasions it's nice to hear different kinds of legato and some use of portamento even if not said so. This is personal choice.

/Tom

[Savio]

But, as described, this was a situation where the teacher has not explained much at all. Just the same generalities we all know anyway.

I recall taking an art class a few years ago and had occasion to ask "How would I apply [this new concept] to the case I have here?"

"Just make it look good," was the answer i got.

Wow. That was a lame answer. And yet I'm the one who has failed to "take that last step"?

I've witnessed that dismissive hand wave too many times in too many classes.

Self-study I can do myself without registering for a class. I usually do now. But If I'm paying tuition I'm paying for answers and ought to be able to get them for on-topic questions.

Some things cannot be learned through explanation, and must be experienced to learn. Experience comes through experimentation (they share the Latin root expiriri, “to try”), which implies success and failure. You can use “better” or “worse” if you prefer, or “achieved” and “needs work.”

Sometimes, the most beneficial things a teacher can do are to demonstrate a technique and let the student figure it out, or use an analogy/simile/metaphor to paint a picture of the desired result. After all, isn’t the long-term goal of teaching to work one’s self out of a job for every student... in other words, help them learn to teach themselves?

Thank you!! Well written!

Wish I could english like you all.
Tom is good in English.

Leif

[BGuttman]

...
Wish I could english like you all.
Tom is good in English.

Leif

Your English is far better than my Norwegian (or Swedish, or German, or ...)

[imsevimse]

...
Wish I could english like you all.
Tom is good in English.

Leif

Your English is far better than my Norwegian (or Swedish, or German, or ...)

Thanks Leif, but I do not think my English is that good. I had a colleague at work who was half English and half Swedish. Once when I got a comment here that I did not expect I asked him to see if my post could be misunderstood. He laughed at what I had written and translated. I can tell you it was not what I had meant to say. Anyway people here are friendly and tolerant when it comes to language. Noone makes fun of us even though we probably write things now and then that does not make much sense or sound stupid.
I understand your English Leif. I think it is good!

/Tom

[Kbiggs]

Thank you!! Well written!

Wish I could english like you all.
Tom is good in English.

Leif

You’re welcome. I just happen to be a better-than-average wordsmith. I wish I could play and teach half as well as I write and speak!

And thank you, savio. I always understand the meaning of what you write, and I’ve learned a LOT from what you’ve written here on TC and the old TF.