Fundementals reset

[JCBone]

Recently I have been feeling very insecure about my playing because I feel that it is very sloppy and inconsistent. I was thinking about just taking a few weeks and completely relearning the fundementals. Does anybody have any tips on how to go about this?

[Vegasbound]

Have a lesson with a former teacher, if it's chop related have one with Doug.... Could it be a timing issue? By that I mean tongue and slide not in synch?

I ask because that happened to me about 13 years ago, I went a had a lesson with Dudley Bright,no more problem

[Doug Elliott]

"Sloppy and inconsistent" can be a few things.
Definitely chops, which covers several aspects.
Mouthpiece the wrong size for you, either too small or too big.
Slide synchronization, as mentioned.

[FOSSIL]

Recently I have been feeling very insecure about my playing because I feel that it is very sloppy and inconsistent. I was thinking about just taking a few weeks and completely relearning the fundementals. Does anybody have any tips on how to go about this?

You should be covering fundamentals every day. Long notes, slurs, SLOW scales...... if you have not been doing that you will eventually be in trouble. You will not be relearning but re establishing...there is a difference.
Give that a few weeks and see where you are.

Chris

[harrisonreed]

Liiip slurrrr melodiesssss

[Doug Elliott]

I see a lot of players who re-establish wrong stuff every day and just get really good at playing wrong. Then years later it all falls apart.

[imsevimse]

I restart my setting every day repeatedly when I switch between mouthpieces and instruments. If you once had a solid ground then establish that again with long tones and a lot of soft playing. Revisit the Caruso six tones if that is a familiar study to you.

Personally I write down on paper ALL the things I discover when I change between mouthpieces/instruments. I update the information as I learn new stuff. Much of it is mental pictures. I try to connect what I learn to those and then I improve them. The pictures I use can be discussed with other pros, and they often understand what I mean. They might not have used the same picture but it opens up a discussion that I'm learning from. It isn't only for lips, air and fundamentals. It is for legato, articulation and dynamics too. It can be used for all aspects you can think of. After such a discussion I update my notes and modify the picture if I'm helped. I have found this technique of learning to be very fruitful to me and the only thing I hate about it is I waited to use it until I became in my upper 50-ies. My pictures are naturally only applicable on my playing but I recommend the process because then you have to put what you are doing into words, and it's in your own words. In time when all is set I hope everything just falls in place and when that happens it is by a lot of try and error. It's like that child that takes it's first steps and falls. It never just stays there, does it?

I'm doing this to be able to learn trumpet, flugel, french horn, tuba. I come from a lot of alto-, tenor- and bass trombone playing. In history I had problems with fundamentals there but have overcome them quite nicely, at least to my own satisfaction. Just need practice

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

I drew a picture of what was going on chopwise on one of my best days ever, and threw that in my case with my mouthpieces.

[PhilTrombone]

Carmine Caruso exercises.

[imsevimse]

I drew a picture of what was going on chopwise on one of my best days ever, and threw that in my case with my mouthpieces.

Good for you Pick a mouthpiece and see if they have learned anything.

/Tom

[JCBone]

I have been taking lessons from a very well known teacher for the past year and a half or so. I came to him in very bad shape with a lot of bad habbits. I think many have been ironed out but there are still many more that are still there. A big frustration that I have with lessons is I don't feel like I get anything from them. Then I come back next week and he lectures me on how I don't implement his advice etc. etc. I don't think I'm being lazy, it's just that I don't always understand what he is trying to tell me. I don't want to pin the blame for my lackluster playing entirely on someone else but maybe his teaching method is just incompatible with me. Or maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself and expect more from myself more then I am capable of as a student.

[harrisonreed]

I drew a picture of what was going on chopwise on one of my best days ever, and threw that in my case with my mouthpieces.

Good for you Pick a mouthpiece and see if they have learned anything.

/Tom

They have! I certainly don't look at the drawing

[Bach5G]

Recently I have been feeling very insecure about my playing because I feel that it is very sloppy and inconsistent. I was thinking about just taking a few weeks and completely relearning the fundementals. Does anybody have any tips on how to go about this?

You should be covering fundamentals every day. Long notes, slurs, SLOW scales...... if you have not been doing that you will eventually be in trouble. You will not be relearning but re establishing...there is a difference.
Give that a few weeks and see where you are.

Chris

How slow?

[imsevimse]

Good for you Pick a mouthpiece and see if they have learned anything.

/Tom

They have! I certainly don't look at the drawing

To be serious. The point for me is to be more aware of what I'm doing and it seams the picture you refer to in the drawer at one point also did that if it illustrates the emboushure that "perfect day".

My pictures aren't acctually drawings. They are notes of what made sense at that perfect moment of "eureka" and they made a lot of sense when they were made. The texts can be specific but they can also be expressed in "flower language", the kind of language conductors or teachers use when they try to illustrate feelings. I do not need to read the notes. The point is to be able to write them. If I want I can read them and discuss them and even laugh at them.

They who take lessons repeatedly but think they do not evolve between the lessons can try this and see if it helps.. I guess some input from the lessons will be incorporated in the texts. It will be to sort out that "what?" that otherwise can stay after a lesson. It will be the teachers words as they were processed and interpreted. This is now the method I use to process my learning and personally I regret I did not come to think of doing this long ago. Often the teacher makes notes in the book but the student does not. Why?

I think the process with personal text notes could help when a "fundamental reset" takes place. It could be what you do after the lesson to make the most of it

/Tom

[FOSSIL]

You should be covering fundamentals every day. Long notes, slurs, SLOW scales...... if you have not been doing that you will eventually be in trouble. You will not be relearning but re establishing...there is a difference.
Give that a few weeks and see where you are.

Chris

How slow?

Not fast would be another way of saying it....slow enough to think about the tone quality of each note, each articulation, each slide movement...you do them fast too, just not to start.

Chris

[Pieretti]

Have you tried just playing a simple song, lieder, etc? I have found that there are days things don’t work and the best thing is to set everything aside and just play to a song by ear.

But every other advise is excellent. Long tones are magical. Air attack each note 3x (Remington patter works well) First time bend the pitch with your aperture slowly and bring it into focus again, second time air attack and gently peel your mouth from the mouthpiece until you “leak” some air then rest by “sealing the leak”, third time air attack and hold with the adjustments previously made.

This has helped me reset and find the core of notes. It’s also a great way to cool down

[CalgaryTbone]

I agree with all of the long tone/lip slur advice. One thing that hasn't been mentioned - Arbans. There are other similar books that could substitute for the Arbans book, but all of those exercises that combine scales, arpeggios and various articulations - great for clean technique, better tuning and coordination of slide and tongue (or slide/lip slurs). One thing - the Arbans spends too much time in flat keys, so play some of the exercises in the adjacent key (B flat exercise can be played in B without too much effort).

Jim Scott

[Kdanielsen]

I agree with all of the long tone/lip slur advice. One thing that hasn't been mentioned - Arbans. There are other similar books that could substitute for the Arbans book, but all of those exercises that combine scales, arpeggios and various articulations - great for clean technique, better tuning and coordination of slide and tongue (or slide/lip slurs). One thing - the Arbans spends too much time in flat keys, so play some of the exercises in the adjacent key (B flat exercise can be played in B without too much effort).

Jim Scott

Couldn’t agree more with all of this. If my chops are discombobulated or if I’m adjusting to new equipment, a few days off then a few days straight of Arban’s does the trick every time (mostly the first 50 pages or so).

[GabrielRice]

I have been taking lessons from a very well known teacher for the past year and a half or so. I came to him in very bad shape with a lot of bad habbits. I think many have been ironed out but there are still many more that are still there. A big frustration that I have with lessons is I don't feel like I get anything from them. Then I come back next week and he lectures me on how I don't implement his advice etc. etc. I don't think I'm being lazy, it's just that I don't always understand what he is trying to tell me. I don't want to pin the blame for my lackluster playing entirely on someone else but maybe his teaching method is just incompatible with me. Or maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself and expect more from myself more then I am capable of as a student.

If you don't understand, ask questions.

Just because someone is a well-known player with a record of great students doesn't mean they are the right teacher for you.

[GabrielRice]

JCBone, it sounds like you are being very hard on yourself and focusing only on what's wrong.

So let me challenge you with a question: what do you do well? What is your primary strength? Identify that and start every day from there.

In my very first lesson with Norman Bolter, he said two things that have been my guideposts as a player and teacher ever since:

1. "You know, there are no perfect trombone players."

2. "Always start with what you CAN do."

Regarding number 1, he then went into some (confidential) detail about himself and some of the world-class players he knew well, what they had always struggled with, what they did to get around and even hide those issues in the crucial moments of performance, how they worked to improve them, and how they learned to identify and emphasize their strengths in order to make the weaknesses not matter nearly so much.

Regarding number 2, his advice when working on something I could not do yet was to identify what part of that thing I could do, or what thing I could do that was related, and start by establishing and reinforcing that. Then stretch towards the goal one small step at a time.


All that said, time spent on fundamentals is never wasted, but exactly what you do is much less important than being mindful about HOW you do it. Strive for simplicity and good, clear rhythm. If you can make the motions necessary to play as uncomplicated as possible, happening in good coordinated time, you are a long way towards excellent fundamentals. As mentioned above, Arban's is an excellent tool for this kind of work. I also like Kopprasch and Cimera. And I also like scales and scale-based exercises.

[Bach5G]

2nd the simple melodies. I suppose to most of us that means Bordogni but yesterday, for me, it was When I Fall in Love, Tuba Mirum, one of the themes in Festive Overture (in 3 keys), and Sammy’s Reflective Mood (what I could recall of it). Smoke Gets In Your Eyes is great melody. Actually, I just listened to Smoke by the Platters (1959). What a great song.

Just play nice and easy and relaxed.

[harrisonreed]

Norman Bolter: " You know, the are no perfect trombone players."
Toby Oft: *practices wicked lip slurs in the next room*
Norman Bolter: "*ahem*....let me orbit around you as you play. There are no perfect---"
Joe Alessi:

Norman Bolter: "Dammit Joe!"

[Kbiggs]

My experience: For a variety of reasons (mostly medical), I’ve been unable to sustain a consistent practice schedule since just before the pandemic. When I do restart, each time I’ve begun with simple stuff (fundamentals) as described above—long tones, slurs, scales. A lot of glissandos to maintain a consistent sound between notes, and some focused practice on starting notes without the tongue to help with timing of the beginnings of notes. Nothing too high, too low, too loud, or too soft at the beginning. Kopprasch, Marstellar, Remington, Cimera, Vernon, Ellefson, etc., and similar stuff is all I do for a week or more before moving on to more advanced music.

My opinion: If, after you’ve worked with your teacher, and after doing some focused practice on fundamentals, you continue to have problems, it might then be a good idea to take a lesson with another teacher. Teachers only teach what they know. They’re human, and they often can only see what they’re taught to see unless, of course, they’re pretty astute about their own limitations and learn to look for things outside their personal experience. “Master teachers,” for lack of a better term, have found ways to see problems with students even when they haven’t themselves experienced that particular problem or those sets of problems. There’s several here on TC that have contributed to this thread. Perhaps one of them would be willing to help...

[GabrielRice]

Norman Bolter: " You know, the are no perfect trombone players."
Toby Oft: *practices wicked lip slurs in the next room*
Norman Bolter: "*ahem*....let me orbit around you as you play. There are no perfect---"
Joe Alessi:

Norman Bolter: "Dammit Joe!"

I think I get the humor here, but in all seriousness there are no perfect trombone players. EVERYBODY has things that do not come easily to them, including Norman, Toby and Joe. Freeing yourself from any illusion otherwise is a necessary developmental step as a musician, in my opinion.

I have personally heard every one of those three play things that amazed me, and also things that were less than their best. And every one of them is still striving to improve every day. Bet on it.

[Vegasbound]

I would have used a photo of Urbie

[Wilktone]

Recently I have been feeling very insecure about my playing because I feel that it is very sloppy and inconsistent. I was thinking about just taking a few weeks and completely relearning the fundementals. Does anybody have any tips on how to go about this?

"Fundamentals" is one of those things that we all pretend we know what it means, but it can be different for different people. The same exercise played slightly differently or with a different focus can change the results of your practice.

What specifically is sloppy and inconsistent in your playing? We would be able to give you much better advice if we understood what you're trying to improve. Even better, some video examples of you playing so we can see and hear what's going on would be helpful. PM me if you would like me to meet you on Zoom to demonstrate and pick my brain.

Dave

[PaulTdot]

This very true. I've seen people talk about "sloppy and inconsistent" when they're trying to perfect some aspect of their technique. (Lots of great players, including Marshall Gilkes and John Coltrane, have and do complain about inconsistency of this sort!)

But "sloppy and inconsistent" could also mean someone is doing everything completely backwards, and there may be a much easier way for them to play. Compare yourself to someone at a similar level and in a similar position, perhaps, and consult with someone knowledgeable. If you care about your trombone playing, you don't have much to lose!