Downstream on tenor upstream on bass

[imsevimse]

Hi

I just noticed something today I have not noticed before. I'm a doubler on tenor- and bass trombone. Started on tenor in 1975 and picked up a bass first time in 1983 but not for real until 1989 when I bought my first bass. After a lot of dabbling with french horn, trumpet and flugel lately I have become a lot more awhere what my emboushure does or what I have to do to make it work when I return to trombone. Yesterday I noticed I pull my lower jaw back when I play tenor. This does not lead to a steep angle down because I always play comfortably above the stand in a big band and I do not curl the down lip under the top lip much. The pressure for me is all on the upper lip because the mouthpiece rest only on that lip with support of the teeth in the upper jaw. The lover teeth has no pressure that was something I noticed I had to do like this to make things work again after hours of smaller mouthpieces. I did not know this was how I played. I checked the lips and teeth and on tenor I definitely play downstream as Doug also has diagnosed, but then when I picked up the bass I noticed I play upstream on the bass, and that goes for the whole register. I also push the lower jaw forward so that my teeth are parallel on bass and the support is on both upper and lower jaw.
I noticed I can change and play either downstream or upstream on both instruments but I don't.
I think this is the reason why I find the emboushures on tenor and bass to be very different. It has always felt like a new emboushure but I have never analysed that. I have no problem to play the low register on tenor downstream and I have no problem to play the high register upstream on bass but still I choose to handle them seperately. Any other doubler who double like this?

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

I have seen that on a trumpet and trombone double.

The question is, which downstream type are you on tenor? You probably don't know and maybe can't tell, but it would be interesting for me to know.

[imsevimse]

I have seen that on a trumpet and trombone double.

The question is, which downstream type are you on tenor? You probably don't know and maybe can't tell, but it would be interesting for me to know.

You diagnosed me here on tenor as "Very high placement" - Reinhardt IIIA

This link goes to the post where this was done were I seek advice because of emboushure movements. It was four years ago. I have worked on the issues I had since. I had a jaw drop in a certain area in the beginning of the trigger register, and it became very obvious when I also played the factitous notes but that is gone now. I have decreased the over all distance between teeth. I also learned I did not have to do that drop, it was just bad habits.
https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 492#p27609

/Tom

[Savio]

Tom, I dont know much about about embouchure but keep the chin flat and corners firm. Then its nearly the same if it is trumpet or trombone mouthpiece you play. I have played tuba with good luck and it's the same there too. Next month I have to play a purple plastic trombone with a tenor plastic mouthpiece. Its a Disney school concert for children. Its the same on that one too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sHT5zU6Z0E

Leif

[imsevimse]

Tom, I dont know much about about embouchure but keep the chin flat and corners firm. Then its nearly the same if it is trumpet or trombone mouthpiece you play. I have played tuba with good luck and it's the same there too. Next month I have to play a purple plastic trombone with a tenor plastic mouthpiece. Its the same on that one too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sHT5zU6Z0E

Leif

Yes, I understand. I did not know it is not the same for me. I completely change when I switch between bass and tenor, but I'm not planning to change that. It is just something I've never noticed before. Trumpet, flugelhorn and french horn is definitely downstream like the tenor but then the angle is more down and I also support the mouthpiece on both upper and lower teeth wich I do not do on tenor. I think this comes from marching when we had to be in line and hold the instrument in a perfect line. I was in the military as a musician and we marched a lot that year and I had to change how I held the instrument. Later in big band settings I continued to hold the instrument up above the stand to be able to bring everything out and match others. Orchestral players can have other habits, but to play down in the back of the saxes does not work very well. This together probably lead to I only support the mouthpiece on the upper lip. On bass I support on both lips but still play over the stand and this means the lower cheek has been pushed forward. To play like that works very well in the low register for me. The differences is just something I've now discovered. I'm not planning to change this because it works good enough to be able to double like this.

/Tom

[Savio]

Tom, try this two things; Hold an F in the staff until you feel you can do everything on that note. Feel its easy to change dynamic and add any kind of vibration.

Then glizz from staff F up to Bb flat all in first position very slow like you buzz it. Dont change anything. It will depends on how you do that F.

This will also make it easy to do a perfect legato and then you can throw in any articulations you desire.

Well thats my take on trying to be technically oriented and it might not work

Leif

[Doug Elliott]

Tom, if you have to make a change that's one that I have seen work. It's a little strange but if it works keep doing it. The only suggestion I have is to experiment on bass trombone with adjusting your jaw out some to take some pressure on the bottom instead of all of it on the top lip.

[Wilktone]

I'd like to see video of your tenor and bass embouchure, if that's possible.

I checked the lips and teeth and on tenor I definitely play downstream as Doug also has diagnosed, but then when I picked up the bass I noticed I play upstream on the bass, and that goes for the whole register. I also push the lower jaw forward so that my teeth are parallel on bass and the support is on both upper and lower jaw.

Bringing your jaw forward so that they are aligned won't make your embouchure upstream. In fact, that's fairly typical of the downstream Very High Placement (Reinhardt IIIA) embouchure type.

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 492#p27609

Here's something from that thread that is apropos to another recent thread here.

It's all about the sound - the only difference is being more aware of the things that affect it, so you're not randomly hoping that something will improve just because you're thinking about sound. Awareness gives you something real to practice and get better, so then you can forget about and just play.

Dave

[imsevimse]

I'd like to see video of your tenor and bass embouchure, if that's possible.

I checked the lips and teeth and on tenor I definitely play downstream as Doug also has diagnosed, but then when I picked up the bass I noticed I play upstream on the bass, and that goes for the whole register. I also push the lower jaw forward so that my teeth are parallel on bass and the support is on both upper and lower jaw.

Bringing your jaw forward so that they are aligned won't make your embouchure upstream. In fact, that's fairly typical of the downstream Very High Placement (Reinhardt IIIA) embouchure type.

https://www.trombonechat.com/viewtopic. ... 492#p27609

Here's something from that thread that is apropos to another recent thread here.

It's all about the sound - the only difference is being more aware of the things that affect it, so you're not randomly hoping that something will improve just because you're thinking about sound. Awareness gives you something real to practice and get better, so then you can forget about and just play.

Dave

I can see that just by bringing the lower jaw to a position that aligns the teeth or even a bit further does not make me an upstream player. What makes me think I do play upstream is based on:
1 how it feels when I play. It feels like my air goes up in the mouthpiece on bass.
2. how it feels when I remove the mouthpiece and continue to blow and the air hits my nose.
3. what it looks like when I remove the mouthpiece and the lower lip is further out compared to the upper lip. Not a lot but different from what I do on tenor, also different from what I do on tenor in the low register.

I understand these things can be difficult to see without a video and a plastic mouthpiece. I have no plastic mouthpiece but after Corona I might talk to a friend and have him look at what I'm doing. Upstream or downstream is just an observation. I do not consider this to be a problem for me. I'm not thinking of this as faults, just something I discovered. I do what I have to do to find my best sound and this is apparently what I developed. I know I had a lot of troubles in the beginning when I started to double where the bass destroyed my tenor playing and the other way around too. At one point I noticed that this was no longer the case. I can pick up the bass right after the tenor and vice versa and one does not interfere with the other. The emboushures feel very different and one thing is the position of the jaw and the other is the feeling in how I blow.

When I started to play I developed a smile emboushure during my first years. That emboushure also was upstream. I changed to puckered emboushure and downstream when I was 16. The reason to do the change was I had no high register, the low register was then my strength. I have completely reworked my emboushure and the smile emboushure is now all gone. I have tried to play with a smile today but can not do it at all. Upstream is no problem even though for me downstream is my strength in the high register and upstream seams to have been my choice to keep in the low register.
On bass I can play all the high notes I need upstream, but I can also play them downstream. I get a better sound upstream, especially on the valve.
On tenor my high playing is so much better downstream. I would NOT say it is equivalent. Upstream high register is not good enough to use on tenor but the low register is possible both ways.
To separate the to emboushures does work because on tenor the strength need to be in the high register and on bass it needs to be in the low register. My playing skills cover the situations I need and want to face.

/Tom

[baileyman]

It's possible the smaller tenor piece needs to be "off" the lower lip to unpin it and allow it to make adjustments through the range.

The bass piece being larger may avoid that spot on the lower that needs to move.

Curious that bass would become upstream, but that switch can happen in ranges too, right? If it works it seems it's just the way to play that horn.

[Wilktone]

Tom, I'm still curious to see the difference between your tenor and bass embouchures. Everything I saw on your YouTube channel would seem to indicate a Very High Placement Elliott type/IIIA Reinhardt type, but the one clip of you playing bass was short and the lighting was too poor to see your chops. It's certainly possible that what you're doing is downstream on one and upstream on the other, but the one thing that is a good indicator (mouthpiece placement) you don't mention at all.

As far as needing a transparent mouthpiece, once you've had some practice looking at brass embouchures you don't usually need one to be able to tell if an embouchure is upstream or downstream (although sometimes you can be fooled). I mainly use one to convince the player that they are blowing up or down rather than needing one to guess.

While not perfect, there are also a couple of things you could try out that might help work out which type your bass trombone embouchure is. First would be the general direction of your embouchure motion. Upstream (Low Placement Elliott type, IV Reinhardt type) will pull the mouthpiece and lips down to ascend. One of the downstream types also does the same, but a VHP/IIIA (which I think is your tenor embouchure type) pushes up to ascend. If you're still pushing up to ascend on bass trombone you're probably not actually blowing upstream on bass. Also, if you can lip buzz into (or out of) the instrument on bass trombone, that's something that doesn't usually work for upstream players, so that also might indicate you're still blowing downstream on bass trombone.

But then again, you might be right. As I said, I'm curious to see that. I've heard of similar situations on brass doublers that work well, but never personally seen it myself.

Thanks,

Dave

[imsevimse]

Tom, I'm still curious to see the difference between your tenor and bass embouchures. Everything I saw on your YouTube channel would seem to indicate a Very High Placement Elliott type/IIIA Reinhardt type, but the one clip of you playing bass was short and the lighting was too poor to see your chops. It's certainly possible that what you're doing is downstream on one and upstream on the other, but the one thing that is a good indicator (mouthpiece placement) you don't mention at all.
...

After I have investigated my bass trombone emboushure more I'm no longer sure where my airstream goes. If I'm playing upstream or downstream on the bass.

On bass my placement is 50% upper and 50% under. It looks like the middle.

My jaw is pushed forward and weight support is from both upper teeth and lower teeth, this is a difference from my tenor emboushure.

As I described earlier I only have support on the upper teeth on tenor except - as what I now discovered - when I play above high d then I push the jaw forward somewhat and I can then also feel the pressure on both upper and lower lip. This is what I do on a 11c-ish mouthpiece. (I just realise I need to investigate what I do on my Hammond 12M on the large .547 tenor)

Okey, to investigate my bass emboushure I tried to overdo the push forward and see if I could still play and I could. I pushed the jaw as hard as I could and definitely produced an underbite. At the same time I tried my best to put as much low lip in the mouthpiece as I could when playing higer. The result was I could still play about the same as before, just not as comfortable. Then I experimented with a move of the mouthpiece down. I could still play and it still felt as my bass embouschure, but not as good as before. Then I moved the mouthpiece as low as I possibly could, as low as the vibrant part of the top lip was on the rim. This made only the lower lip vibrate. I could still play but even more awkward and the sound was now really bad.

When I play as I normally do I can switch and play with my tenor emboushure on the bass too. When I do this I do not push the jaw forward and I do not support on both lips. The angle of the horn is not changed, it still points straight . I have practiced a lot to play above the stand in a big band, so this is where this comes from.
I do what I have too if a bass-part is high. With my bass emboushure I can play as high as . If I need to go higher in the tenor range on bass I change to my tenor emboushure and the jaw is then drawn back slightly. The horn-angle is still not changed.
I can play the high and middle range on bass that way too with no problem. In the low range I need to push the jaw forward or else my playing becomes insecure.

I have no problem to lip-buzz in the middle and high register and to go in and out of the mouthpiece but I'm no good at doing either in the bass register.
I can lip-buzz and mouthpiece-buzz the whole tenor register except pedals on both tenor and bass mouthpiece. If I increase resistance and use a finger to cover half the shank I can mouthpiece-buzz the low register too.

/Tom