Highest note in the symphonic repertoire

[louislagueux]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here

I'm also new to the trombone, i've been playing for about a month now (after playing euphonium for all of high-school) and its been a thrill! I was just wondering about what would the highest note in the symphonic repertoire be for the tenor trombone? The highest i've seen would be in Symphonie Fantastique, in the 4th mouvement, which is Eb. I believe this part was originally intended for the alto trombone but i've seen in performed on the tenor several times.

Can someone explain all this to me?

Thank you!

[BGuttman]

Welcome to the Chat!

There was a time when the three parts in a trombone section were for an alto in Eb, a tenor in Bb, and a bass in F. But there was also a contention that the three trombones were all the same length but of different bore sizes.

Consorts of Sackbuts (the instrument in use before the development of what we consider the trombone) were in these three sizes. The Alto comfortably topped out at Eb 2 octaves above the one in the bass staff. The tenor comfortably topped out at Bb an octave above the one on top of the bass staff, and the bass topped out at F 2 lines above the bass staff. Composers generally adopted these limits for the 3 voices.

Tenor players developed the ability to play much higher than the "nominal" range and thus the need for an alto disappeared since the parts could be played on the tenor.

Thus you will see that the highest note for trombone parts is the Eb you describe. I believe there might be a couple of F's above that but I haven't seen any.

Jazz Band parts go higher with regularity. Lead trombone players are often expected to play Bb 2 octaves above the one on top of the bass staff This often becomes a problem since parts are always written in bass clef with a LOAD of ledger lines making reading difficult -- imagine ha to immediately recognize 7 or 8 ledger iines!

[robcat2075]

Beethoven's 5th has an F that is often remarked on. Labeled as "alto" but often played on tenor.

5th.jpg

[brassmedic]

Beethoven's 5th Symphony has an F. Berg's Three Pieces for Orchestra has an E natural. I remember playing a Mozart Mass that had an E natural, but I can't remember which one.

[brassmedic]

Oops, beat me to it.

[Mikebmiller]

Beethoven's 5th has an F that is often remarked on. Labeled as "alto" but often played on tenor.

5th.jpg

Which makes me wonder whether trombone players 200 years ago were much better than us, or did Beethoven just hate them?

[LeTromboniste]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here

I'm also new to the trombone, i've been playing for about a month now (after playing euphonium for all of high-school) and its been a thrill! I was just wondering about what would the highest note in the symphonic repertoire be for the tenor trombone? The highest i've seen would be in Symphonie Fantastique, in the 4th mouvement, which is Eb. I believe this part was originally intended for the alto trombone but i've seen in performed on the tenor several times.

Can someone explain all this to me?

Thank you!

Berlioz did specify he wanted a "true" alto trombone in the manuscript score of the Fantastique, but it is likely it wasn't performed that way. In his later orchestration treatise, Berlioz makes it clear that 3 tenors was very much the standard in Paris at the time, basses in Eb were simply not used, and altos were sometimes but rarely used in France. After traveling to Germany and hearing true alto, tenor, bass sections, he wrote that the practice of using 3 tenors as common in Paris was superior, at least for his music.

Also important to keep in mind that the instruments of the time were very different than they are now. The French tenor of Berlioz's time was much smaller in bore, bell and mouthpiece size than any alto you'd find today.

[LeTromboniste]

Beethoven 5 indeed has a high F. If I recall correctly Glück's Alceste also has one, but it's been a while since I saw that part so I could be wrong. Both were written in Vienna where the alto vs tenor situation is not clear (there's still fairly heated scholarly debate as to what size instrument was used for "alto" parts).

High D's are not uncommon in French post-romantic music.

[JCBone]

For alto parts you can expect up to around E flat for romantic repotoir. I don't think That I have seen higher then B flat for first tenor. Bass is usually up to around F above the staff but in Mahler 1, I think it goes uo to the high B flat.

[BGuttman]

Beethoven's 5th has an F that is often remarked on. Labeled as "alto" but often played on tenor.

5th.jpg

Which makes me wonder whether trombone players 200 years ago were much better than us, or did Beethoven just hate them?

Remember that composers of Beethoven's era were writing based on the Eb Alto / Bb Tenor / F or Eb Bass model. Players of the time could play the range of an Eb alto trombone on a tenor (as they can today) but the "model" for the section was still Alto/Tenor/Bass. Note that printings of the mid 19th Century often removed notes below E in the Bass Trombone parts as the instrument in use was a large bore Bb.

[LeTromboniste]

Beethoven's 5th has an F that is often remarked on. Labeled as "alto" but often played on tenor.

5th.jpg

Which makes me wonder whether trombone players 200 years ago were much better than us, or did Beethoven just hate them?

I think Beethoven didn't care much if his performers hated him for the stuff he wrote for them. But no doubt that there were some really good players in Vienna in his time (and probably even better in the decades before).

For alto parts you can expect up to around E flat for romantic repotoir. I don't think That I have seen higher then B flat for first tenor. Bass is usually up to around F above the staff but in Mahler 1, I think it goes uo to the high B flat.

Not higher than Bflat when the tenor part is the 2nd trombone, but certainly higher when it is first trombone. There are too many high Cs and Ds to count.

For bass parts it's tricky. If determining what a bass trombone should be able to play today, yes there are high B flats. But if it's to determine what the range of the instrument was conceived of by the composers, then it depends how you define what a bass trombone is, which varied widely in history and geographically. A lot of the parts we play on bass trombone were written for an instrument identical or similar to that of the 2nd (or even 1st) trombone, a Bb or Bb/F trombone, often but not always with a wider bore. For instance while we typically use bass trombones on the 3rd party of French music, that wasnt the case at the time, so we can't really say that those parts are representative of bass trombone writing.

Another example, you mention Mahler, but Mahler wrote for 3 or 4 "Tenorbaßposaunen" in Bb/F, not for 2-3 tenors and 1 bass or 2 tenors and 2 basses. It's likely that the lowest trombones used wider bore instruments, but Mahler doesn't shy away from writing high passages in the lower parts and vice versa, and even have the 1st or 2nd trombone drop below the lowest trombone on occasion. The only "true" bass part in Mahler is in the 6th symphony, 4th movement, a part likely written for a long F or Eb bass.

[LeTromboniste]

Which makes me wonder whether trombone players 200 years ago were much better than us, or did Beethoven just hate them?

Remember that composers of Beethoven's era were writing based on the Eb Alto / Bb Tenor / F or Eb Bass model. Players of the time could play the range of an Eb alto trombone on a tenor (as they can today) but the "model" for the section was still Alto/Tenor/Bass. Note that printings of the mid 19th Century often removed notes below E in the Bass Trombone parts as the instrument in use was a large bore Bb.

That isn't really true. "Beethoven's era" is too vague, as the national schools had developed at the time and the practice varied a lot geographically. It's also not really true for Beethoven in Vienna in particular, where the "bass" was almost undoubtedly a Bb instrument. Whether the Eb alto was in use at all in Vienna is debatable (I think yes, but can't prove it definitely), but we know for sure that some players at least prefered and advocated for the use of Bb instruments on all parts. That "the model was Alto/Tenor/Bass" is also hard to accept. The trombone had just been reintroduced in most of Europe after decades of disuse so there wasn't really much of a model to follow besides their own emerging practice. In some places where it had survived it was indeed alto, tenor and bass, but not everywhere. For instance the most common way to score for trombones in Vienna through almost the entire 18th century had been 2 trombones and...a bassoon!

[robcat2075]

I recall an anecdote where Beethoven had to inquire with a trombone player what the range of a trombone was.

Possibly some lack of clarity regarding the difference practical range and possible range is responsible for that high F although it isn't insane on an alto.

Beethoven writes more appropriately for trombone in his Three Equali so perhaps he had gotten some feedback in the intervening 8 years?

[harrisonreed]

I have no doubt that the trombonists could play a high F for Beethoven when he was alive. It's really not that difficult.

[MStarke]

Just a few examples. There is much more - not the highest of all, but showing which range is repeatedly required:
- Schumann 3/Rheinische, E flat in the chorales, also quite high in other parts; typically on alto
- Mendelssohn Ruy Blas Overture and Lobgesang, from what I remember both go up to E flat; both good for alto
- Strauss orchestral stuff, a few points with at least (?) high Ds, clearly for tenor
- Mozart, Schubert, Haydn, Mendelssohn etc. requiems/masses etc. from my knowledge regularly going to high Ds, maybe some are higher; typically on alto
- Brahms symphonies: Multiple high Ds at least in the second symphony; often played on tenor
- If you look at Bass trumpet stuff - normally played by trombonists - at least Wagner operas have some high spots
- And certainly there is a lot of not so well-known literature that does not respect any limits

One core point for me:
In a forte and tutti setting the high is for me much more than comfortable than in an exposed situation.
The "high" a in the Brahms 1 chorale can be scary...

[HowardW]

The E-flat alto trombone was not introduced in Vienna until 1883, when the director of the Court Opera Orchestra decided to have the trombonists switch back to slide trombones -- they had been playing valve trombones since the mid 1830s.

Gluck wrote up to high f in the first trombone parts of two of his operas:
Alceste (Vienna version, 1767) and Iphigenie auf Taurus (Vienna, 1781).
In Alceste the high f is approached in a triadic figure: d1--f1--a1--d2--f2;
in Iphigenie the f2 is approached by step (in whole notes): a1--b1--c#2--d2--e2--f2
In Beethoven's Fifth, on the other hand, the first trombone has to pick the f2 out of thin air. Beethoven afterwards may have decided that that was not such a great idea, and henceforth avoided it.

It should also be pointed out that the E-flat alto trombone was practically unknown in American symphony orchestras until the 1980s, and until then the "alto trombone" parts had been played on tenor trombones (just like in Beethoven's day).

Howard

[brassmedic]

It's interesting that Beethoven didn't write any more Fs after the 5th symphony. the 6th only goes to D, and the 9th avoids D altogether, opting to have the trumpet play the D that starts the fugue and having the first trombone enter in the next bar. Makes me wonder if he had a bad experience with whoever performed the 5th.

[LeTromboniste]

It's interesting that Beethoven didn't write any more Fs after the 5th symphony. the 6th only goes to D, and the 9th avoids D altogether, opting to have the trumpet play the D that starts the fugue and having the first trombone enter in the next bar. Makes me wonder if he had a bad experience with whoever performed the 5th.

The 5th and 6th are actually contemporaneous — he started the 6th first, and it was technically premiered before the 5th (they were premiered on the same concert with the same performers, with the 6th opening the first half and the 5th opening the second half), so I wouldn't read too much in the different style of writing, other than he was going for a very different role for the trombones between the two pieces.

[brassmedic]

It's interesting that Beethoven didn't write any more Fs after the 5th symphony. the 6th only goes to D, and the 9th avoids D altogether, opting to have the trumpet play the D that starts the fugue and having the first trombone enter in the next bar. Makes me wonder if he had a bad experience with whoever performed the 5th.

The 5th and 6th are actually contemporaneous — he started the 6th first, and it was technically premiered before the 5th (they were premiered on the same concert with the same performers, with the 6th opening the first half and the 5th opening the second half), so I wouldn't read too much in the different style of writing, other than he was going for a very different role for the trombones between the two pieces.

That's interesting, but I still wonder why he felt comfortable writing Ds in the 6th, but shied away from them in the 9th, even to the point of leaving it out of beginning of the fugue entirely and later taking it down an octave. I can't see any musical reason for doing that; it makes it a downward leap of a major 7th and creates a very awkward musical line. But at the end of the piece there is a high D in the tutti section. It's as if he didn't trust trombone players to reliably hit that note in an exposed section.

[EdwardSolomon]

For tenor trombone, I am pretty sure the highest note written is an E in Richard Strauss' "Die Frau ohne Schatten".

Here's Denson Paul Pollard playing through that section:

[MrHCinDE]

It's as if he didn't trust trombone players to reliably hit that note in an exposed section.

For some cryptic reason he seemed to think it was perfectly ok to write a cold entry on a high B natural (4th movement, after the bass trom. figure) after sitting around twiddling your thumbs for about half an hour

I'd say that cold B is much harder to play securely (and still tastefully ) than a couple of Ds which he could have written at the start of the fugue.

[olivegreenink]

Welcome to the Chat!

There was a time when the three parts in a trombone section were for an alto in Eb, a tenor in Bb, and a bass in F. But there was also a contention that the three trombones were all the same length but of different bore sizes.

Consorts of Sackbuts (the instrument in use before the development of what we consider the trombone) were in these three sizes. The Alto comfortably topped out at Eb 2 octaves above the one in the bass staff. The tenor comfortably topped out at Bb an octave above the one on top of the bass staff, and the bass topped out at F 2 lines above the bass staff. Composers generally adopted these limits for the 3 voices.

Tenor players developed the ability to play much higher than the "nominal" range and thus the need for an alto disappeared since the parts could be played on the tenor.

Thus you will see that the highest note for trombone parts is the Eb you describe. I believe there might be a couple of F's above that but I haven't seen any.

Jazz Band parts go higher with regularity. Lead trombone players are often expected to play Bb 2 octaves above the one on top of the bass staff This often becomes a problem since parts are always written in bass clef with a LOAD of ledger lines making reading difficult -- imagine ha to immediately recognize 7 or 8 ledger iines!

This may be one of the most humbling things I’ve ever read about playing. When I was in tip-top playing shape 20 years ago had command of my playing range up to ~Db5. Occasionally I had days when F5 was dialed in. Yes I could squeak out notes higher for the sake of “seeing how high I could play” ... but it was going to be a surprise to me what note I hit. To hear that there is an expectation of composers in settings to knock all the way up another half octave on command is mind blowing. Thank you for sharing. Going to go sulk now :p

Cheers

[grafemberg]

Beethoven's 5th has an F that is often remarked on. Labeled as "alto" but often played on tenor.

5th.jpg

isn't the note in the image you posted actually a G?
am I missing something?
thank you

[BGuttman]

Beethoven's 5th has an F that is often remarked on. Labeled as "alto" but often played on tenor.

5th.jpg

isn't the note in the image you posted actually a G?
am I missing something?
thank you

Yes, you are. Note the clef symbol at the beginning of the line. It's an Alto Clef. In Alto Clef middle C (normally a line above the bass staff) is in the middle of the staff. The lines on the alto clef are F, A, C, E, and G.

[FOSSIL]

I recall an anecdote where Beethoven had to inquire with a trombone player what the range of a trombone was.

Possibly some lack of clarity regarding the difference practical range and possible range is responsible for that high F although it isn't insane on an alto.

Beethoven writes more appropriately for trombone in his Three Equali so perhaps he had gotten some feedback in the intervening 8 years?

The instance that you cite was actually Beethoven asking a bass trombone player ahead of writing the 9th symphony. My source is the 1910 edition of Groves dictionary. It also mentions that in the original edition of the score of the 9th, the trombone parts were in an appendix at the back of the score.

Chris

[harrisonreed]

LoL. In the appendix!

"Give these parts out to the trombones at your own risk"

[robcat2075]

I recall an anecdote where Beethoven had to inquire with a trombone player what the range of a trombone was.

Possibly some lack of clarity regarding the difference practical range and possible range is responsible for that high F although it isn't insane on an alto.

Beethoven writes more appropriately for trombone in his Three Equali so perhaps he had gotten some feedback in the intervening 8 years?

The instance that you cite was actually Beethoven asking a bass trombone player ahead of writing the 9th symphony. My source is the 1910 edition of Groves dictionary. It also mentions that in the original edition of the score of the 9th, the trombone parts were in an appendix at the back of the score.

Chris

I would say that timeline points to a lack of firm knowledge when he was writing the 5th.

After the debacle of the high F in the 5th, he has decided to get player advice about trombone range.

And the fact that we have that recorded instance of him asking advice doesn't mean he never had other previous discussions which are lost to history. There were no standard orchestration treatises for him to read so he is either asking around or working from what he thinks he has heard.

What could go wrong?

[Kdanielsen]

The 5th and 6th are actually contemporaneous — he started the 6th first, and it was technically premiered before the 5th (they were premiered on the same concert with the same performers, with the 6th opening the first half and the 5th opening the second half), so I wouldn't read too much in the different style of writing, other than he was going for a very different role for the trombones between the two pieces.

That's interesting, but I still wonder why he felt comfortable writing Ds in the 6th, but shied away from them in the 9th, even to the point of leaving it out of beginning of the fugue entirely and later taking it down an octave. I can't see any musical reason for doing that; it makes it a downward leap of a major 7th and creates a very awkward musical line. But at the end of the piece there is a high D in the tutti section. It's as if he didn't trust trombone players to reliably hit that note in an exposed section.

I assumed he left that high D out because the alto’s didn’t need help there and the trombone would only muddy the vowel sound (potentially with a chipped note). I have no idea if this is true at all. Just my own little theory.

[LeTromboniste]

The instance that you cite was actually Beethoven asking a bass trombone player ahead of writing the 9th symphony. My source is the 1910 edition of Groves dictionary. It also mentions that in the original edition of the score of the 9th, the trombone parts were in an appendix at the back of the score.

Chris

I would say that timeline points to a lack of firm knowledge when he was writing the 5th.

After the debacle of the high F in the 5th, he has decided to get player advice about trombone range.

And the fact that we have that recorded instance of him asking advice doesn't mean he never had other previous discussions which are lost to history. There were no standard orchestration treatises for him to read so he is either asking around or working from what he thinks he has heard.

What could go wrong?

This is rather conjectural though. I'd be curious to read the quote in Grove. There are lots of apocryphal stories relayed in secondary sources (even serious ones like Grove), especially older ones, or ones that are themselves based on other secondary sources.

Beethoven spend some time in Linz with Glöggl in 1812 where he learned about local trombone traditions and heard and wrote trombone music. Certainly he wasn't a complete novice with regards to trombone writing by the time he wrote the Ninth.

As noted earlier in his thread there are earlier instances of high Fs in Viennese music before Beethoven 5, so it's not like he was being completely unreasonable in writing it.

[FOSSIL]

I would say that timeline points to a lack of firm knowledge when he was writing the 5th.

After the debacle of the high F in the 5th, he has decided to get player advice about trombone range.

And the fact that we have that recorded instance of him asking advice doesn't mean he never had other previous discussions which are lost to history. There were no standard orchestration treatises for him to read so he is either asking around or working from what he thinks he has heard.

What could go wrong?

This is rather conjectural though. I'd be curious to read the quote in Grove. There are lots of apocryphal stories relayed in secondary sources (even serious ones like Grove), especially older ones, or ones that are themselves based on other secondary sources.

Beethoven spend some time in Linz with Glöggl in 1812 where he learned about local trombone traditions and heard and wrote trombone music. Certainly he wasn't a complete novice with regards to trombone writing by the time he wrote the Ninth.

As noted earlier in his thread there are earlier instances of high Fs in Viennese music before Beethoven 5, so it's not like he was being completely unreasonable in writing it.

If my memory serves, Beethoven wrote the three Equali on the 2nd of October 1812 whilst in Linz...these pieces became more significant when they were used at Beethoven's funeral. Interestingly, they were scored for two altos, tenor and bass, though the second part sits quite low for the alto. The great man departed to the sound of trombones and voices, though he had no say in the matter...nice.

Chris

[robcat2075]

I'd be curious to read the quote in Grove.

My reading of this is that in 1824... long after the 5th was written... he is still uncertain about the range of the Trombone.


Grove's 1908:

Beethoven.jpg

.
While we can't say for certain what Beethoven knew and when he knew it, I think we can confidently say that as trombonists go, Beethoven was better at the piano.

[Posaunus]

Isn't "Posaun 16 füssig" a reference to an organ pipe / stop?

That would sound pretty "menacing" (minnaciando) to me.

[robcat2075]

And here is the alleged letter. The musical notation noted above occurs immediately after the page turn.

Can anyone read this fraktured German?

[ithinknot]

Isn't "Posaun 16 füssig" a reference to an organ pipe / stop?

Yes.

[robcat2075]

I'm not sure why the Germans bothered with code machines in WWII. Their typography alone should have been enough to stop anyone from trying to read their secrets.

Here is the last paragraph, machine translated...

Best!!
You have offended me greatly! You have committed several falsas: You must therefore first purify yourselves before my judgment seat here; as soon as the ice is broken up, Maynz must come here, and the recensoring Ober-Appelations-Rath must also appear here to give an account, and here you are well!
We are not particularly attached to you!Given without anything to give on the heights of Schwarzpanien the 28th of Janner 1826.

Beethoven

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[brtnats]

Jazz Band parts go higher with regularity. Lead trombone players are often expected to play Bb 2 octaves above the one on top of the bass staff This often becomes a problem since parts are always written in bass clef with a LOAD of ledger lines making reading difficult -- imagine ha to immediately recognize 7 or 8 ledger iines!

Bruce, are you talking about 8va?! I have played some crazy charts, but I have never seen that Bb written. What charts are you talking about?

[harrisonreed]

I had been wondering about that too. Regularly see D's and Eb's in the charts I get handed, but have never been given a chart with Bb5 written in it. Can't say I've seen Fs outside of transcribed solos, even. There is "good high" and "oh my god even if you play this note it's going to sound like a dying chipmunk high".

[Burgerbob]

I've seen Eb in a normal big band chart. Which is silly enough. Nothing higher though.

[jacobgarchik]

Not in the typical repertoire, but I get a kick out of it.
Check out 2:39 or so

[harrisonreed]

Coulda just used a theremin...

[Doug Elliott]

The Airmen of Note had a chart of Sister Sadie (it's in YouTube from after I was gone) that had a high E as part of the melodic line, in the lead and second parts.

You can hear somebody clam it at 7:57

[Posaunus]

High Es and Fs are just unfair! Reachable (mostly, perhaps) but always risky, especially when on stage in an unfamiliar environment. Glad I don't have to play those charts! Why set yourself up for embarrassment?

[Bach5G]

The fourth trumpet probably isn’t doing anything important.

[BGuttman]

I actually saw that note in a lead chart for a big band I used to be part of (the Dave Rasmussen Jazz Orchestra). I don't think the chart ever got called while I was there, though. I asked the lead bone about it and he said he played it once or twice. I was bass bone and my problem was getting down to the pedal Eb's.

[LeTromboniste]

And here is the alleged letter. The musical notation noted above occurs immediately after the page turn.

Can anyone read this fraktured German?

It's nothing particularly interesting for us. They're writing about metronome marks and dedications for various works (clearly they were preparing editions). There's no mention of trombones in that text, and the notation with trills in "Posaune 16 füssig" has nothing to do with trombones. As noted above, 16 foot "Posaun" is an organ stop.


I found the other letter in the Harmonicon. "Mr.H." has since been identified as Beethoven's good friend Tobias Haslinger. The passage that interest us is as follows:

Nothing can possibly be more lively, more animated, and,— to use an epithet that so well characterizes his own symphonies,— more energetic than his conversation, when you have once succeeded in getting him into good humour ; but one unlucky question, one ill-judged piece of advice,— for instance, concerning the cure of his deafness — is quite sufficient to estrange him from you for ever. He was desirous of ascertaining, for a particular composition he was then about, the highest possible note of the trombone, and questioned Mr. H. accordingly, but did non seem satisfied with his answers. He then told me, that he had in general taken care to inform himself through the different artists themselves, concerning the construction, character, and compass of all the principal instruments.

Immediately after that he goes on to talk about Beethoven's nephew and other subjects.

So first off, as I suspected, the old Grove article is not very accurate, and is paraphrasing rather liberally. "He was desirous of ascertaining" somehow became "Beethoven seized on [Haslinger] and eagerly inquired".

Importantly, what we have is an account by a witness (i.e. not a participant in the initial exchange), not a letter from Beethoven or the person he was asking the question to. It's probably reliable, but it's not completely out of the question that Schultz didn't report accurately, or that he didn't comprehend some nuances of the conversation. In any case it's an extremely short description of that conversation, and we don't know the details of the substance. We don't know exactly what Beethoven's question was (i.e. how it was worded and approached), what Haslinger's answer was, on what grounds Beethoven disagreed with the answer, how long that conversation lasted, etc. This is not intended by Schultz to be an accurate account of Beethoven's knowledge of the trombone, but to be an illustration of his description of Beethoven's conversation style and mood-swings. We shouldn't try to make that quote say more than what it actually says.

Then there's the issue of who he's talking to. "Mr.H." is Tobias Haslinger, who was a second-rate composer and mostly a publisher, music dealer and entrepreneur. I don't know if he played trombone, but if he did I don't think he was a professional trombonist. I think the author of the 1908 Grove article assumed Mr.H. was a trombonist given the rest of the quote, that he claims to have consulted "artists" of the various instruments. But now that we know who Mr.H. is, we know that is not really the case. Haslinger isn't "a trombonist who visited Beethoven", he's one of Beethoven's close friends. This changes what we can learn from that quote, since it changes in what authority the person is being asked that question (from Beethoven's perspective).

Then the language. Beethoven isn't reported as wanting to learn what the highest note is, but merely to "ascertain" it. That's not at all the same; ascertaining implies that he already has a pretty good idea and is asking for confirmation.

Note that although it could be about the Ninth symphony, it's not impossible he was talking about the Missa Solemnis. I'm not sure about the timeline here, I know the mass premiered in 1824 and he finished writing it in 23, but was it before or after that meeting with Haslinger, not sure. The Missa Solemnis has several high D's as well, but has the 1st trombone avoid doubling the alto voices' high E's, so that might be the notes in question here.

[robcat2075]

As I see that, with his trombone range uncertainty clearly extending into the 1820s it becomes even more difficult to imagine that the high F in the 5th is a knowledgeable composer-orchestrator touch on Beethoven's part.

Maybe he had someone recruited for the premiere for whom that was a trivial thing (with one rehearsal!), but once that piece got out to every orchestra in Europe, how many trombone players were able to nail it? They probably didn't. They probably took it down, no one was the wiser, and the piece was successful without it. It's an unnecessary failure point to build into a work.